T
Tristan
Guest
No, they aren't in heaven now. They go to heaven when Jesus returns.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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HELL'S FIRST MOMENT.... THROUGHOUT ETERNITY
- Thread starter turnorburn
- Start date
No, they aren't in heaven now. They go to heaven when Jesus returns.
Nathanael Chong
Member
Then why did Jesus tell the criminal, "I assure you, today you shall be with me in paradise"? If right now, both believers and non-believers are asleep in the grave, then what is this paradise that Jesus talked about. Notice He said, "Today."
When Jesus returns, He stays here and rules from His Throne on Earth.
When He returns, He will bring with Him, those who are in heaven to earth to be with Him.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14
again -
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14
and again -
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:3-5
and again
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27
The spirits of the saints who have died [sleep] are with the Lord in heaven, yet their bodies are buried in the earth, awaiting the final trumpet of God, whereby their dead bodies will be raised as incorruptible, like the body that Jesus has.
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
Key Phrase - ...absent from the body.
The spirit man does not stay with the body upon death.
The saints who have died are in heaven with the Lord, and will return with Him on that last Day.
JLB
WordsintoHarmony
Member
Thanks for making me to take notice of the workers in the vineyard. I’ve’ heard this parable but I needed to read it again to make sure what I believe this parable means. The parable is about the Kingdom of God. Since this parable has to do with the Kingdom of God it can only mean this parable is for believers. How is that so? Because even you know that those who don’t believe will inherit the Kingdom of God. Your take on the vineyard is that both believers and Non believers are being talked about the wages they receive.
But careful observation shows these are only those called by the man who owns the field. Who owns the field or who owns the world? God does. Only God can call us to go out to do His work. The evil men are not spoken in this parable since they would not do the work of the man that owns the field. They the evil are not working towards the Kingdom of God. So this parable only is for those that believe listening, to the owner of the field he, the owner, (representing God) that owns the field to do the work to receive the payment for their reward. How do I know also this parable only is talking about believers? Because the wages that everyone received was one denarius. One denarius more than nothing at all. It is a wage one can say see I have done work and no will have earned one denarius.
However Romans 6:23 says 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We see then that sin does not even earn one denarius because the dead does not live. Since they do not live it would not make any sense to give them a reward they could spend to nothing now they don’t have.
Now also what does it mean by 3 and 7 and 9 and 11? (Paraphrased example of how I will describe this Bible parable) These hours represent in the third hour those who in early life in the early hour of the day served and did the work of the man in the field. That at six and nine 1more joined into God’s work. But they did so say ten to twenty years later. Lastly the person at the 11th hour. This person only in all their life did 2 years of work for the Lord. So the one says Lord I have worked 45 years I was here at 3 working in the field and you give them who only worked 20 years the same wage. Ten years the same wage and 2 years the same wage. How is it fair Lord I work all these years and we all get paid the same? So the Lord will say as the man who owns the field. I own all things. I pay according to righteousness. I give a fair reward to everyone no matter what time in life they had started.
So a Christian never should expect that just because they have done God’s work all their life to expect more from God even from one working only even at the last hour as 11 to 12 is the one hour. Should we complain? Certainly not because the rewards of God are very generous. We all that believe should be happy we earned fair payment from God. And everyone who believed was treated the same and equal to show that all His people are his children. We’re not in the contest. But we as God’s people even at Christian forums are to be in the race together running the marathon crossing the line. So the one who crosses first to fourth to even to the 100th person will all inherit God’s Kingdom that believed all that crossed the finish line no matter what number they were in the marathon..
But careful observation shows these are only those called by the man who owns the field. Who owns the field or who owns the world? God does. Only God can call us to go out to do His work. The evil men are not spoken in this parable since they would not do the work of the man that owns the field. They the evil are not working towards the Kingdom of God. So this parable only is for those that believe listening, to the owner of the field he, the owner, (representing God) that owns the field to do the work to receive the payment for their reward. How do I know also this parable only is talking about believers? Because the wages that everyone received was one denarius. One denarius more than nothing at all. It is a wage one can say see I have done work and no will have earned one denarius.
However Romans 6:23 says 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We see then that sin does not even earn one denarius because the dead does not live. Since they do not live it would not make any sense to give them a reward they could spend to nothing now they don’t have.
Now also what does it mean by 3 and 7 and 9 and 11? (Paraphrased example of how I will describe this Bible parable) These hours represent in the third hour those who in early life in the early hour of the day served and did the work of the man in the field. That at six and nine 1more joined into God’s work. But they did so say ten to twenty years later. Lastly the person at the 11th hour. This person only in all their life did 2 years of work for the Lord. So the one says Lord I have worked 45 years I was here at 3 working in the field and you give them who only worked 20 years the same wage. Ten years the same wage and 2 years the same wage. How is it fair Lord I work all these years and we all get paid the same? So the Lord will say as the man who owns the field. I own all things. I pay according to righteousness. I give a fair reward to everyone no matter what time in life they had started.
So a Christian never should expect that just because they have done God’s work all their life to expect more from God even from one working only even at the last hour as 11 to 12 is the one hour. Should we complain? Certainly not because the rewards of God are very generous. We all that believe should be happy we earned fair payment from God. And everyone who believed was treated the same and equal to show that all His people are his children. We’re not in the contest. But we as God’s people even at Christian forums are to be in the race together running the marathon crossing the line. So the one who crosses first to fourth to even to the 100th person will all inherit God’s Kingdom that believed all that crossed the finish line no matter what number they were in the marathon..
T
Tristan
Guest
I have my work cut out for me it seems.
Nathanael Chong: Punctuation is key! It's missing from the original language. It fits better like this: "I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise." Think of it like him saying "Verily". Given the bleak outlook for their future, Jesus gives confirmation even in such circumstances, the thief will be with him.
Also, Jesus didn't return to heaven immediately, so it's impossible for both of them to have been in paradise that day. Jesus rested in the tomb and was raised on the third day.
JLB: God will return with a heavenly host, but that host will not include any of us who are fallen. We will be brought to him, to be with him on Earth. He will bring us with him, to the new Jerusalem. We will be scattered across the world, and when he comes back, we will be brought to him. Here's the context:
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." -1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Those who are left will not precede those who have fallen asleep...the dead in Christ will rise first, and THEN we will be caught up together to meet the Lord. Please read the context for verse 14. Why do the dead in Christ rise if they are already with him? Most importantly though: What use is bringing the body out of the grave when flesh and blood (hence the body) do not inherit the kingdom? Especially if they're already with the Lord. Why not just change them right then and there? Nowhere in scripture does it directly say that the moment we die, we will be with the Lord. That's inferred, not directly stated.
WordsintoHarmony: No, actually, the kingdom of heaven is NOT only for the believers. I'd like to show you a few things:
"Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”" -Mark 9:24
"And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;" -John 16:8+9
“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” -Mark 3:28+29
So unbelief is a sin, yes, but all sin except the unforgivable sin can be forgiven. So what is the one sin that God will not forgive? The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...what is that? There is a critical passage on one of Paul's letters:
"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." -2 Timothy 3:5
That section speaks directly to what the unforgivable sin is (the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). The last line is the core of the message. Showing the outward appearance of godliness, but choosing to deny that power. That is exemplified in the actions and state of the heart outlined above it. You can tell a tree by its fruit. Even if you don't believe, the Holy Spirit can still work in you and you can embrace it, you just may not know what it is. Remember that the Lord's sheep know his voice and follow it. That doesn't mean they know exactly whose voice it is, though they follow it regardless.
I leave it to God to judge who has allowed the Holy Spirit to work in them and who has had faith (please note that faith and belief are not the same thing). I rejoice at the prospect that many more may be saved by the power of the Holy Spirit.
My sole direct criticism to you: Who are you to tell me now who is saved and who isn't? You are not God. I am not God. God will make the final judgment, all I have is the outline as to how it will happen. To say that only believers of the same faith as you will be savedm is to make the judgent now. I condemn nobody. That is God's job.
Nathanael Chong: Punctuation is key! It's missing from the original language. It fits better like this: "I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise." Think of it like him saying "Verily". Given the bleak outlook for their future, Jesus gives confirmation even in such circumstances, the thief will be with him.
Also, Jesus didn't return to heaven immediately, so it's impossible for both of them to have been in paradise that day. Jesus rested in the tomb and was raised on the third day.
JLB: God will return with a heavenly host, but that host will not include any of us who are fallen. We will be brought to him, to be with him on Earth. He will bring us with him, to the new Jerusalem. We will be scattered across the world, and when he comes back, we will be brought to him. Here's the context:
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." -1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Those who are left will not precede those who have fallen asleep...the dead in Christ will rise first, and THEN we will be caught up together to meet the Lord. Please read the context for verse 14. Why do the dead in Christ rise if they are already with him? Most importantly though: What use is bringing the body out of the grave when flesh and blood (hence the body) do not inherit the kingdom? Especially if they're already with the Lord. Why not just change them right then and there? Nowhere in scripture does it directly say that the moment we die, we will be with the Lord. That's inferred, not directly stated.
WordsintoHarmony: No, actually, the kingdom of heaven is NOT only for the believers. I'd like to show you a few things:
"Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”" -Mark 9:24
"And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;" -John 16:8+9
“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” -Mark 3:28+29
So unbelief is a sin, yes, but all sin except the unforgivable sin can be forgiven. So what is the one sin that God will not forgive? The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...what is that? There is a critical passage on one of Paul's letters:
"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." -2 Timothy 3:5
That section speaks directly to what the unforgivable sin is (the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). The last line is the core of the message. Showing the outward appearance of godliness, but choosing to deny that power. That is exemplified in the actions and state of the heart outlined above it. You can tell a tree by its fruit. Even if you don't believe, the Holy Spirit can still work in you and you can embrace it, you just may not know what it is. Remember that the Lord's sheep know his voice and follow it. That doesn't mean they know exactly whose voice it is, though they follow it regardless.
I leave it to God to judge who has allowed the Holy Spirit to work in them and who has had faith (please note that faith and belief are not the same thing). I rejoice at the prospect that many more may be saved by the power of the Holy Spirit.
My sole direct criticism to you: Who are you to tell me now who is saved and who isn't? You are not God. I am not God. God will make the final judgment, all I have is the outline as to how it will happen. To say that only believers of the same faith as you will be savedm is to make the judgent now. I condemn nobody. That is God's job.
WordsintoHarmony
Member
Tristan you said
Now take a look in the dictionary for the definition of belief..
be·lief
biˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
Now take a look in the dictionary for the definition of belief..
be·lief
biˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
- 1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"- something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
"contrary to popular belief, Aramaic is a living language"
synonyms:opinion, view, conviction, judgment, thinking, way of thinking, idea, impression, theory, conclusion, notionMore
"it's my belief that age is irrelevant" - a religious conviction.
"Christian beliefs"
synonyms:ideology, principle, ethic, tenet, canon;More
doctrine, teaching, dogma, article of faith, creed, credo
"traditional beliefs"
- something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
- 2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
synonyms:faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credenceMore
See in the definition that the word faith is there.
" Do you now believe?" " Do you now have faith?"
WordsintoHarmony
Member
You have been making it an emphasis that Jesus is using parables to try to teach us what we need to learn. But we need to know that Jesus also not only told parables, Jesus also explained his own parables so we can have the meaning as to how exactly what this parable means. First let’s deal with parables. Matthew 13
The Purpose of Parables
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’[b]
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
It’s important to know this because even though Jesus does tell parables we might not always know its full meaning. But when Jesus ‘explains’ what the parable means He is then telling the Disciples ’plainly’ revealing the mystery to what the parable means.
Matthew chapter 13 The Parable of the wheat and the tares first the parable is told by Jesus. Next the Disciples want an explanation to what this parable means. Jesus explains plain and clear not in any allegory of words or symbolic but as plain as it can get. The Angels are those reaping and gathering in the field. . They do so only at the end of the harvest. The wheat is God’s people. The sons of God who are gathered safely who will be spared. The tare is gathered and tied together and are the children of the Devil. This tare will be thrown into the fire to be burned up.
Remember again it is very important to know when the Disciples asked Jesus about the parables Jesus tells them “plainly”. So let’s examine the plain words because you say the parable does not count as being literal. But we better take it literal when Jesus at this moment speaks plainly to the Disciples for the sure answer to what this parable really means.
What is the field? Who is in the field? What will happen to those in the field?. . Who gathers them? No one should make any mistake when Jesus “Explains” the revelation even to his own parable to show us the real true meaning of it in common plain words even for them that have ability to read and see for themselves. Lord what is the answer? Jesus answer is just like looking at the teachers answer book she has in the drawer to correct the papers of the students. Our text books shares us material. We read the material. We try to extrapolate all the ideas and write down our answers on paper. . The teacher takes our papers like it is an inquiry. Here is my answers teacher. Please correct them are they right? How does she correct them? She must have the right answers. She does not compare her own answer. She uses the book that has the sure answer. That represents the Bible. The Word of God is like the teachers book with all the answers all of us students learning are looking for.
John 1 verse 1. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He Jesus is the Word that lives among us. He the Word whose words we read and see in the Bible told us the answer plainly. They the tares the people of the wicked will be thrown into the Fire. You can’t say that the parable is the problem in this matter. Because Jesus cleared up the very thing the Disciples wanted to know what this parable meant. . So if we don’t even believe Jesus explanation to the Disciples speaking plainly also to mean we don’t believe Jesus when He speaks in common every day language to the right and true answer.
Now turn to Matthew 10:28.
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in HELL.
This is about the fear of God. Jesus told them do not be afraid of that one person that kills the body only but fear the one who that kills both body and soul. . So Jesus is saying it could be done by a person who came up to shoot us. Jesus told us not to fear this man. He who has a gun can shoot you and kill your body. Don’t fear that. . But fear God who kills both body and soul. Look at what it says now. “The body and soul now are ‘DESTROYED IN HELL’. So it’s not the body alone that will get killed. It is also the soul. This verse here shows us directly that body and soul is destroyed in Hell. So take notice the body was not destroyed in this life. This life is not the meaning of Hell. Hell is a word only associated with dead. That means that destruction happens at death. How is that? Go and see what the other posters said in this topic. Nathanael said and took notice of what is called second death in Revelation. He didn’t deny the graves and Hades was given up as this is the second resurrection of the dead. That this poster takes notice of the first death He was in Hades and the second death the final death.
The Matthew 10:28 factor death both body and soul are destroyed in Hell. This still leads us to Matthew 13 that agrees with the explanation of Jesus parable He told us plainly and agrees with the Lake of fire in the Book of Revelation . . . if we can’t believe Jesus even in plain language, and that He told us the meaning to what He described and to give us the right answer. If we don’t believe the words of God it only becomes contradictory to our own heart. You said God hardly speaks to us. He certainly does both in parables even in allegories but only also in clear language because God wants us to know the one true way.
John 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
The Purpose of Parables
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’[b]
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
It’s important to know this because even though Jesus does tell parables we might not always know its full meaning. But when Jesus ‘explains’ what the parable means He is then telling the Disciples ’plainly’ revealing the mystery to what the parable means.
Matthew chapter 13 The Parable of the wheat and the tares first the parable is told by Jesus. Next the Disciples want an explanation to what this parable means. Jesus explains plain and clear not in any allegory of words or symbolic but as plain as it can get. The Angels are those reaping and gathering in the field. . They do so only at the end of the harvest. The wheat is God’s people. The sons of God who are gathered safely who will be spared. The tare is gathered and tied together and are the children of the Devil. This tare will be thrown into the fire to be burned up.
Remember again it is very important to know when the Disciples asked Jesus about the parables Jesus tells them “plainly”. So let’s examine the plain words because you say the parable does not count as being literal. But we better take it literal when Jesus at this moment speaks plainly to the Disciples for the sure answer to what this parable really means.
What is the field? Who is in the field? What will happen to those in the field?. . Who gathers them? No one should make any mistake when Jesus “Explains” the revelation even to his own parable to show us the real true meaning of it in common plain words even for them that have ability to read and see for themselves. Lord what is the answer? Jesus answer is just like looking at the teachers answer book she has in the drawer to correct the papers of the students. Our text books shares us material. We read the material. We try to extrapolate all the ideas and write down our answers on paper. . The teacher takes our papers like it is an inquiry. Here is my answers teacher. Please correct them are they right? How does she correct them? She must have the right answers. She does not compare her own answer. She uses the book that has the sure answer. That represents the Bible. The Word of God is like the teachers book with all the answers all of us students learning are looking for.
John 1 verse 1. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He Jesus is the Word that lives among us. He the Word whose words we read and see in the Bible told us the answer plainly. They the tares the people of the wicked will be thrown into the Fire. You can’t say that the parable is the problem in this matter. Because Jesus cleared up the very thing the Disciples wanted to know what this parable meant. . So if we don’t even believe Jesus explanation to the Disciples speaking plainly also to mean we don’t believe Jesus when He speaks in common every day language to the right and true answer.
Now turn to Matthew 10:28.
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in HELL.
This is about the fear of God. Jesus told them do not be afraid of that one person that kills the body only but fear the one who that kills both body and soul. . So Jesus is saying it could be done by a person who came up to shoot us. Jesus told us not to fear this man. He who has a gun can shoot you and kill your body. Don’t fear that. . But fear God who kills both body and soul. Look at what it says now. “The body and soul now are ‘DESTROYED IN HELL’. So it’s not the body alone that will get killed. It is also the soul. This verse here shows us directly that body and soul is destroyed in Hell. So take notice the body was not destroyed in this life. This life is not the meaning of Hell. Hell is a word only associated with dead. That means that destruction happens at death. How is that? Go and see what the other posters said in this topic. Nathanael said and took notice of what is called second death in Revelation. He didn’t deny the graves and Hades was given up as this is the second resurrection of the dead. That this poster takes notice of the first death He was in Hades and the second death the final death.
The Matthew 10:28 factor death both body and soul are destroyed in Hell. This still leads us to Matthew 13 that agrees with the explanation of Jesus parable He told us plainly and agrees with the Lake of fire in the Book of Revelation . . . if we can’t believe Jesus even in plain language, and that He told us the meaning to what He described and to give us the right answer. If we don’t believe the words of God it only becomes contradictory to our own heart. You said God hardly speaks to us. He certainly does both in parables even in allegories but only also in clear language because God wants us to know the one true way.
John 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
God will return with a heavenly host, but that host will not include any of us who are fallen.
It will include all of those who are His, that have died [sleep], for they are with Him in heaven as soon as thet die.
to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
The body is dead, not the spirit man.
The Spirit man does not need to be resurrected, the body is what is resurrected.
Their BODIES are here in the earth, their spirit man is what is in heaven.
Read what the scripture says -
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
The spirits of those who died, come with the Lord to receive their resurrected body that is on the earth.
I listed four different scriptures that show the saints coming WITH The Lord when He returns.
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27
All the saints are gather from the earth and from heaven!
JLB
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:9-11
turnorburn
Member
i think Tristan has left the building.. 
tob
tob
T
Tristan
Guest
That doesn't address my points at all. I just explained how unbelief is a sin that can be forgiven and proceeded to explain what the eternal sin was.
So let me ask you. Does it say anywhere in scripture at all that the Holy Spirit can't work in everyone? Look at the fruit of the Spirit that I presented to you. If you were to meet someone and see evidence of the Spirit working in them, would you deny it just because they are not a professed Christian? Romans 8 and 9 is the crux of what I believe on this matter:
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit...................But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." -Romans 8:1-5,10+11
And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. -Romans 8:27+28
"As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 l“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called sons of the living God.’”" -Romans 9:25+26
"And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." -John 10:16
"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone," -Romans 9:30-32
There are several things that need explaining here. The first is the nature of the term "Gentile". I determined that this refers to non-Israelite nations. The word most often used is "Goy", which is defined as I have just mentioned. That's an all-encompassing term. Anyone who is not a Jew has access to this salvation.
What you're advising me is to take the Bible out of its cultural, historical, and literary context? That's something I won't do, just as I won't believe something philosophically, logically, or naturally inconsistent. I don't take everything literally, and I don't take every little point in a parable to mean something either. No, I don't believe that everything God/Jesus said is literal, even in his parables. Sometimes Jesus takes the time to more thoroughly explain (still not mentioning every little thing), but not always. The parable in Luke 16 comes with no explanation (but does appear with a few other ones).
Um...not sure I follow that line of thinking. Also...I believe that we are body+spirit = soul. I'd have to get into the Hebrew and Greek for that one though, and it would be a huge post. Yes, the body and spirit can be killed in Hell. They are killed. Annihilated. The body can also be destroyed in this life. If you are under a nuclear blast, you are incinerated and have no more body? Does that mean you can't be resurrected? Does that mean they can't be destroyed again or destroyed if they haven't been already?
I don't take everything in that parable literally. It's a parable...a story with a moral. Focus on the moral, not every little detail. Yes, Jesus speaks about the kingdom of heaven, but not every little detail is pertaining to the kingdom. Some of it is just the background so that his audience can understand. He's speaking in their language, right? It's about communication, and Jesus was being an effective communicator by using the cultural context of his audience.
The only way to salvation is through Jesus...through the blood of Jesus. It is superficial to focus purely on belief or unbelief. That is just one sin, not the eternal sin.
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." -Romans 8:26+27
Even those who do not know Christ can be saved by him because the Holy Spirit works through them and intercedes on their behalf. The Lord is the final judge, and his work is done through the Holy Spirit.
So let me ask you. Does it say anywhere in scripture at all that the Holy Spirit can't work in everyone? Look at the fruit of the Spirit that I presented to you. If you were to meet someone and see evidence of the Spirit working in them, would you deny it just because they are not a professed Christian? Romans 8 and 9 is the crux of what I believe on this matter:
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit...................But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." -Romans 8:1-5,10+11
And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. -Romans 8:27+28
"As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 l“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called sons of the living God.’”" -Romans 9:25+26
"And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." -John 10:16
"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone," -Romans 9:30-32
There are several things that need explaining here. The first is the nature of the term "Gentile". I determined that this refers to non-Israelite nations. The word most often used is "Goy", which is defined as I have just mentioned. That's an all-encompassing term. Anyone who is not a Jew has access to this salvation.
What you're advising me is to take the Bible out of its cultural, historical, and literary context? That's something I won't do, just as I won't believe something philosophically, logically, or naturally inconsistent. I don't take everything literally, and I don't take every little point in a parable to mean something either. No, I don't believe that everything God/Jesus said is literal, even in his parables. Sometimes Jesus takes the time to more thoroughly explain (still not mentioning every little thing), but not always. The parable in Luke 16 comes with no explanation (but does appear with a few other ones).
Um...not sure I follow that line of thinking. Also...I believe that we are body+spirit = soul. I'd have to get into the Hebrew and Greek for that one though, and it would be a huge post. Yes, the body and spirit can be killed in Hell. They are killed. Annihilated. The body can also be destroyed in this life. If you are under a nuclear blast, you are incinerated and have no more body? Does that mean you can't be resurrected? Does that mean they can't be destroyed again or destroyed if they haven't been already?
I don't take everything in that parable literally. It's a parable...a story with a moral. Focus on the moral, not every little detail. Yes, Jesus speaks about the kingdom of heaven, but not every little detail is pertaining to the kingdom. Some of it is just the background so that his audience can understand. He's speaking in their language, right? It's about communication, and Jesus was being an effective communicator by using the cultural context of his audience.
The only way to salvation is through Jesus...through the blood of Jesus. It is superficial to focus purely on belief or unbelief. That is just one sin, not the eternal sin.
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." -Romans 8:26+27
Even those who do not know Christ can be saved by him because the Holy Spirit works through them and intercedes on their behalf. The Lord is the final judge, and his work is done through the Holy Spirit.
T
Tristan
Guest
@tob: Just needed time to respond. Will be back for JLB
ezrider
Member
Where did you ever come up with this doctrine? The Spirit man does not need to be resurrected? And what is the body that it should so require? Do you not know that which is written in the scriptures? The first man Adam was made a living soul; And God breathed into Adam the spirit of life. But when Adam did sin and was cast forth from the garden, the spirit of life departed, and he became subject to the spirit of death. The spirit of man is the spirit of this world, and is the spirit of antichrist, and it works to slay our soul. The spirit of man does not need to be resurrected, it needs to be destroyed. And so it is with the coming of Christ, for the second man Adam was made a quickening spirit. Jesus Christ is the Resurrection, He is our Spirit of Life. He maketh us to lie down in green pastures, and he restoreth our soul. You have heard it said that a man shall leave his father and mother, and he shall cleave to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. So it is in the resurrection, for the Spirit of Christ has come in the flesh, and He hath made his abode in the hearts of men. The spirit of Christ formed in union with the souls of men, and the two shall become one flesh, restored into our former estate, and once again made a living soul. Do not be ignorant of this one thing, but we have this treasure in our earthen vessels, that the excellency and power may be of God, and not of us. The body is not the resurrection, Christ is the resurrection. The body is but a vessel, a cloak that we wear. When we shall be changed, it is not a death to life event, it is a changing of garment.
Nathanael Chong
Member
"It fits better like this." Something tells me that you are altering the punctuation to suit your purpose. What makes you think that the current punctuation is wrong?
And Jesus did not sleep in the tomb. The Scripture says that He ministered to the dead; so His spirit couldn't have been asleep. And remember that Jesus can go anywhere He wants. Why can't He keep His promise to the repentant criminal?
T
Tristan
Guest
What makes me think it's wrong? People aren't in heaven now. They're dead in the ground. They know nothing.
He did sleep. Where does it say he ministered to anyone while he was dead?
Nathanael Chong
Member
That appears to be your opinion. If the dead were asleep, why were Moses and Elijah with Jesus during The Transfiguration?
Where in the Bible does it say His spirit ministered to the dead? 1 Peter 3:18-20 -- "Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood."
T
Tristan
Guest
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing," -Ecclesiastes 9:5
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -Daniel 12:2
"After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”" -John 11:11-15
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." -1 Thessalonians 4:16
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." -John 5:25-29
"But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?" -Job 14:10
The list goes on, but I'll stop for the sake of brevity. When we die, we lay in the ground until Jesus returns.
Again, we're missing punctuation. "He suffered physical death, but was raised to life in the Spirit. (PERIOD) So he went and preached to the spirits..." It doesn't say he did so while he was dead. It says he died and was raised to life, so THEN he went and preached to the spirits in prison. Punctuation makes a big difference in meaning.
EDIT: Concerning the three people at the transfiguration:
Elijah and Enoch never died. They were taken up into heaven. Moses...well he's a different story.
"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day." -Deuteronomy 34:5-6
"But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” -Jude 1:9
We can presume that Moses is not dead right now...because he appeared at the transfiguration like the other two.
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -Daniel 12:2
"After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”" -John 11:11-15
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." -1 Thessalonians 4:16
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." -John 5:25-29
"But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?" -Job 14:10
The list goes on, but I'll stop for the sake of brevity. When we die, we lay in the ground until Jesus returns.
Again, we're missing punctuation. "He suffered physical death, but was raised to life in the Spirit. (PERIOD) So he went and preached to the spirits..." It doesn't say he did so while he was dead. It says he died and was raised to life, so THEN he went and preached to the spirits in prison. Punctuation makes a big difference in meaning.
EDIT: Concerning the three people at the transfiguration:
Elijah and Enoch never died. They were taken up into heaven. Moses...well he's a different story.
"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day." -Deuteronomy 34:5-6
"But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” -Jude 1:9
We can presume that Moses is not dead right now...because he appeared at the transfiguration like the other two.
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Nathanael Chong
Member
Here in Ecclesiastes, we see Solomon despairing about life: "everything is meaningless. . . completely meaningless." In chapter 9 verse 9 he said, "Live happily. . . through all the meaningless days of life God has given you." Does this mean that life is meaningless? We can only understand this when we understand what the author must have been thinking at that time. I think he must be referring to the physically dead, as he is focusing on the physical life here.
I believe that the "asleep" Jesus referred to was the same kind of "sleep" He meant when He said, "The girl isn't dead; she's only asleep" in Matthew 9:24.
The "dead you pointed out here has a different meaning. It is the same as what Paul meant when he said, "Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin. . ."[/quote]
I can't be sure, but I believe that what Jesus meant was "those who are dead." He did not specify whether He's referring to the spirit or flesh.
We must understand that this statement was made by a man in agony. I also believe he was focusing on the physical side of the subject.
I'm afraid you misunderstood the actual meaning. It did not say, ". . . but was raised to life by the Spirit," it says, ". . . but was raised to life in the Spirit." That means His spirit was alive. And nowhere in the Bible did it say that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison AFTER His physical resurrection.
T
Tristan
Guest
If you don't have a body, everything is dead. A soul is comprised of a body an a spirit. Dust+breath from Genesis. If you take away one part, you are dead. Yes, people are physically dead. Their spirit returns to God, but they are still dead because the soul is incomplete.
According to Jesus, the dead are sleeping.
According to Jesus, the dead are sleeping.
Nathanael Chong
Member
We have three parts in our being: a spirit; a soul; and a body. Our spirit is the eternal being; and the soul consists of the mind, will, and emotion. God formed Adam's body out of dust, and created a spirit and soul in it. When the body dies, the spirit and soul are free from this physical form.
Many times the Bible says, ". . . heart and soul." I believe that the heart is the spirit, and that it is different from the soul.
I believe if a soul is without a spirit, when the body dies, the soul dies as well. If there is a spirit, the soul lives with it eternally; that is why we will have a mind, a will, and an emotion in heaven.