Bible Study Help! What does this mean....

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I think I understand what you are asking in 1 and 2, but did you read:

Adam Clarke Commentary​

Verse Romans 5:12 (NAS)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned;
Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world — From this verse, to the conclusion of the chapter, the apostle produces a strong argument to prove that, as all mankind stood in need of the grace of God in Christ to redeem them from their sins, so this grace has been afforded equally to all, both Jews and Gentiles.


Dr. Taylor has given the following analysis of the apostle's mode of argumentation. The argument stands thus:-"The consequences of Christ's obedience extend as far as the consequences of Adam's disobedience. The consequences of Adam's disobedience extend to all mankind; and therefore, so do the consequences of Christ's obedience. Now, if the Jews will not allow the Gentiles any interest in Abraham, as not being naturally descended from him, yet they must own that the Gentiles are the descendants of Adam, as well as themselves; and being all equally involved in the consequences of his sin, from which" (as far as the death of the body is concerned) "they shall all equally be released at the resurrection, through the free gift of God, therefore they could not deny the Gentiles a share in all the other blessings included in the same gift."

This argument, besides proving the main point, goes to show:

1. That the grace of God in the Gospel abounds beyond, or very far exceeds, the mere reversing of the sufferings brought upon mankind by Adam's one offence; as it bestows a vast surplusage of blessings which have no relation to that offence, but to the many offences which mankind have committed, and to the exuberance of the Divine grace.

2. To show how justly the Divine grace is founded on the obedience of Christ, in correspondence to the dispensation Adam was under, and to the consequences of his disobedience: if this disobedience involved all mankind in death, it is proper that the obedience of Christ should be the cause not only of reversing that death to all mankind, but also of other blessings which God should see fit (through him) to bestow on the world.

3. It serves to explain, and set in a clear view, the difference between the law and grace. It was the law which, for Adam's one transgression, subjected him and his posterity, as included in him when he transgressed, to death, without hopes of a revival. It is grace which restores all men to life at the resurrection; and, over and above that, has provided a gracious dispensation for the pardon of their sins; for reducing them to obedience; for guarding them against temptations; supplying them with strength and comfort; and for advancing them to eternal life. This would give the attentive Jew a just notion of the law which himself was under, and under which he was desirous of bringing the Gentiles.

The order in which the apostle handles this argument is this:-

1. He affirms that death passed upon all men by Adam's one transgression, Romans 5:12 (NAS)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned;
Romans 5:12.


2. He proves this, Romans 5:13 (NAS)

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:13; Romans 5:14 (NAS)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
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Romans 5:14:



3. He affirms there is a correspondence between Adam and Christ; or between the παραπτωμα, offence, and the χαρισμα, free gift, Romans 5:14 (NAS)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:14.

Love, Walter

Thanks Walter and Debbie,,,
The above is very good - it's just that it's not exactly what we're discussing.
Care to read the O.P. again?
Simple question:
Are we IMPUTED with the sin of Adam or do we just suffer the consequences of it?
Are we held personally responsible for HIS sin of disobedience?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think one old school term is Adamic sin, perhaps? Original sin, most definitely. anyway...

adam and eve brought sin onto humanity, and really...onto the whole (now fallen) world. numerous Scripture verses deal with all humans being born into sin, no matter how innocent or helpless. and along with the curse of sin, one sees the law set up to at least curb behavior (even if not allowing for true, genuine, forgiveness+ redemption+ ongoing connection with God the Father...).

not good with addresses, but I recall elsewhere Paul -- who, as Saul, was a well heeled, well educated Jew -- writing about the law "bringing death" and such. deal is...

sins not being imputed, to me, simply means that in the absence of divinely ordained laws, God hated the sins going on, but the level of individual accountability seems to be much, much lower. with the law, God made it possible to cover sins with sacrifices and such, but it wasn't until Jesus' ministry and death and resurrection...especially the full atonement, at Calvary...

that the -1- individual who could possibly make a way for all of us born with a sin nature (adamic sin, sin nature) and into a fallen world, marred by sin...

could find full and true, ongoing forgiveness and relationship with God. while Paul writes that the lack of a law = sins not being imputed, Jesus' death and Resurrection made a way for those who believe upon Him to (to pull a Pentecostalism...) "plea the Blood of Jesus," and stand before God covered in His imputed righteousness.

or something like that. I'm caffeinated, clearly.

No you're not!
All you wrote is right on.

 

[for_his_glory]

Adam and Eve WERE NEVER CURSED - only two things were. It's in the Word. The creation was made subject to "vanity" (Romans 8:20). Man's nature never changed. Adam, Jesus, and ME all have/had the same "Human nature". There's only one "Human nature", and it's subject to temptation according to the process in James 1.

It is written in Genesis 3:12-24 about God's curse upon Adam and Eve and every generation after them as all have walked in disobedience needing God's grace. We have to remember that it repented God that He even created man as their hearts turned to evil and was about to destroy them all, but found favor only in one, Noah, as God established a covenant with him and gave a new beginning to all after him, but yet as the generations grew so did the evil hearts of man increase, Genesis Chapter 6.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks Walter and Debbie,,,
The above is very good - it's just that it's not exactly what we're discussing.
Care to read the O.P. again?
Simple question:
Are we IMPUTED with the sin of Adam or do we just suffer the consequences of it?
Are we held personally responsible for HIS sin of disobedience?

Why look back at sin?
Look forward - ask forgiveness and go forward into a life of victory!
Know that God is with you, know that you have favor with God, look for all he has for you.
It's a new day everyday.
Reach out to the Lord and talk to him and walk with him.
He has forgotten your sins.
They are past.
He has forgiven you.
It's time you forgive yourself.
Fill your spirit with the joy of the Lord.
Jesus saves!
Lot's wife looked back.
Don't you look back!
Praise the Lord in everything!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you think that when God created man and placed him in the garden that it was not done for His good pleasure for man to enjoy that which God created for him in the garden? God created everything for sustenance for man that he could enjoy that of what God created and provided for him. There was no such thing as idle hands being the devils workshop as man was not created with sin. God cursed Adam and Eve for their disobedience as now life passed unto death and man no longer had pleasure within the garden, but was cast out of it losing that close fellowship with God, Genesis Chapter 2-3. Adam's sin was disobedience which was then passed down to every generation as all fell short of the glory of the Lord. Not by Adams own sin that only he was held accountable for, but that sin had now entered into the world as many transgressed the law of life and death by partaking of the tree of good and evil.

Well said....
Agreed 100%

 

[GodsGrace]

Why look back at sin?
Look forward - ask forgiveness and go forward into a life of victory!
Know that God is with you, know that you have favor with God, look for all he has for you.
It's a new day everyday.
Reach out to the Lord and talk to him and walk with him.
He has forgotten your sins.
They are past.
He has forgiven you.
It's time you forgive yourself.
Fill your spirit with the joy of the Lord.
Jesus saves!
Lot's wife looked back.
Don't you look back!
Praise the Lord in everything!!!

I agree and like everything you've written.

But why not join in the conversation at hand?

We're discussing whether or not Adam's sin of disobedience was imputed to every man born....
are we held PERSONALLY responsible for Adam's sin...
Or are we just suffering from the effects of his disobedience?

 

[GodsGrace]

In regard to death of the body to all- yes
In regard to judgment those apart from Christ whose guilt remains are judged according to what they have done as written in the book of life.
In regard to accountability that comes with light. Justice to the nations through the gospel message.
Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.

Jesus -If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Israel had the law which had curses and blessings. The world outside Israel lived with unrestrained sin in darkness and ignorance and with few exceptions their sins were left unpunished. God came to a point He was no longer allowing that condition to exist. Hence the light of the gospel message to all people which also has blessings and curses as the wrath of God on the wicked is part of the gospel message.


We all know good and evil and that came through the sin of Adam. We can be tempted by that knowledge.

Agreed on everything you've stated.

Man will have no excuse --- but for HIS OWN sins.
Do you think we're respsonsible for Adam's sin?
Or are we just affected by it?

 

[GodsGrace]

This got me thinking. I am not sure what Paul is getting at.
But then again how can a baby or child be guilty of sin before the age of responsibility?
Or how could a child be saved, counted as holy before the age of responsibility?
Paul says the believing parent is counted as the covering for the child. This is imputed righteousness, counted as.
So the child born into this world is imputed with sin, though in action they are not counted as sinning.

Hi Peter,
Paul clearly stated in Romans 5:13 that we are not imputed with the sin of Adam, because persons between Adam and Moses were not imputed with sin because there was no law. I think I've stated before that I THINK these are the prisoners spoken of that Jesus brought the gospel to after His death. (to give them a chance to be saved).

Before the age of responsibility, one cannot sin because they don't understand what sin is.

Righteousness can be imputed...just as we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ, because we choose this.
Sin cannot be imputed because the bible teaches that each man is responsible for his own sin and not the sin of others.

Instead, the N.T. does teach us that Christ was made sin....so all sin was imputed to Him...
and His righteousness is imputed to believers.

Death or the seed that leads to the path that leads to death is set by Adam through the knowledge of good and evil.
In a sense Adam never had an open relationship with God, because he did not know good and evil. Every person born outside faith, does not know grace as God gives it, because they are imputed as dead.

Jesus brought life which is imputed to children of believing parents.
Faith is imputed as righteousness, grace overflowing a multitude of failures and weaknesses.
When I have gone to funerals, sometimes despite someones life it is spoken of them being in heaven.
Others who are very affectionate towards the individual, even though they had no faith lives in the hope they are saved. Thankfully it is not mine to judge or know, I just praise the Lord for His grace and imputing life and righteousness to my life.

God bless you

Have we been to the same funerals?
lol
I've noticed the same...but who can tell, only God knows for sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

Could we argue that the first commandment, or law, of God was when he said to Adam, thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge?

Hi CR,,,
Welcome to the forum...it's nice to have you here, you sound like a thinker.
I would not agree that the first commandment or law was when God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree.
God told Adam a specific command...it was not told to any other person but Adam.
Romans 5:12-14 tells us that until Moses there was no Law.

Would Adam have been the cause of sin entering the world if God hadn't put the forbidden tree in the garden?

God put it there for a reason.
Do we know what the reason is?
Did God know Adam would disobey? (I believe He did, of course).
But God did everything anyway --- we do not know why, except we know that He creates.

And that verse says death happened to us from Adam into Moses.
What about after Moses? Death eased?

The Law was given to Moses....that's all it means.
But physical death still cursed man since Adam was meant to be immortal.
From the time Adam sinned,,,all men died because all men sinned....
They sinned and they died.
Romans 5:14
Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come.

Genesis is always s curious narrative if we consider God is Omniscient. And he tells us he predestined , foreordained, everything. Even our lives.

Where does the bible tell us God has predestined, foreordained, everything - even our lives.
I do believe John Calvin said this...not God.

Would we know God were it not for the fall?
The fall gets a bad rap for what separated us ftkmGod. But we're it not for that would we know God?

Do you have to kick your dog for him to know you?
God could have revealed Himself to us in any method He so chose.

However, from the beginning God knew man would disobey, and already from the beginning He had a plan in place so that those WHO SO CHOSE could be made children of God and still be saved.
Genesis 3:15
15And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The HE above is Jesus
The YOU above is satan

Just like Judas. He gets a bad rap for pointing Jesus out to the temple guards with a kiss on the cheek. And this led to Jesus' trial and crucifixion, which saved the world.
But, would this have happened without Judas playing his part?

Judas played his part.
Did God USE Judas,,,,or did God purposefully plan for him to betray Jesus?
There is no way for us to know this.
There MAY BE some times throughout the history of the Old and New Testament that God actually did predestine something to happen...
but how I understand it is that God uses persons to achieve His purpose.

Like a football game.
Each move is individually decided by the FREE WILL of each player, or players in unison.

But God will achieve His purpose and make that football game end with the winner HE desires to win.

Man retains his free will.
God retains His sovereignty.

There is no big mystery between free will and God's sovereignty.
God is a mighty God and is not afraid of giving to mankind their free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul is making an interesting point.
Sin is not counted as sin until the law defines something as sin.
Is the question being asked, did sin exist before the law, or does sin arise because of the law?
I would say it is like saying in a dark room with no light does anything exist in the room before the light is switched on?
It is the light that shows where everything is.

So is Paul actually saying anything deeper than this? I am not sure because the lostness of man causes him to sin and die, so sin appears to be a symtom of a state of being not its cause, except the cause of being born into sin was Adam.

Healing is by fixing our eyes on Jesus, seeing the very nature of God and its love that heals us, so healing is embedded in realisation and sight rather than just sin and forgiveness. Some seem so caught up in the mechanism they have not the real reality, so have a faith without relationship, salvation without love, redemption without transformation. We are forgiven because we see and love Jesus, having faith in Him and through Him, love expressed through the cross which is the atoning sacrifice, which eternally redeems us. Which is more real, the love or the action? Both are the same, they are linked, which is the power of knowing who Jesus is, and its eternal nature transcending our frailty and humanity to exalt us to become friends of our Lord and Saviour, God bless you

No Peter...
the simple question is:
Are we IMPUTED with Adam's sin?
Romans 5:12 says we are not and yet some here say that we are.
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then God lied when He said it was (Gen 3:17). That the way you want to play it??

What does Genesis 3:17 state?

Genesis 3:14-19
14The LORD God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;

15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

16To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.

18“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;

19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”


All of the above are curses...
curses NEVER were for man's benefit, but a penalty for not keeping his part of a covenant....

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam and Eve WERE NEVER CURSED - only two things were. It's in the Word. The creation was made subject to "vanity" (Romans 8:20). Man's nature never changed. Adam, Jesus, and ME all have/had the same "Human nature". There's only one "Human nature", and it's subject to temptation according to the process in James 1.

Guess you've never borne a baby.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did God create Adam and Eve in the condition of spiritual death? No! And yet, all people are born spiritually dead and continue in spiritual death until they are regenerated, according to Eph. 2 et. al. Anyone not regenerated does not have the indwelling Spirit. So then, Adam's nature had to change after his fall from spiritual righteousness to spiritual unrighteousness, and everyone now is born into that same condition, proven by the fact that everyone sins. In Rom. 7, Paul says that we are "sold in bondage to sin." Therefore, since Jesus was not in bondage to sin, His human nature was not in the same condition as ours. My point is that the sinful nature in man is a bad condition of his human nature. Since Jesus was "separate from sinners," He was not inclined to sin as we are, though He was tempted.

I wish you weren't reformed.........

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the question is: Does God impute the specific sin of Adam to the human race? I don't think Paul actually said that.

1. I can certainly see that the effect of Adam's sin was that the human race was subjected to the condition of spiritual death, this is the way I read Rom. 5, and it seems to fit both the text and what is observed in reality. But I'm not sure that I can accept the idea that Adam's specific sin is imputed on his progeny. If you think so, can you explain?

2. I could accept Adam as a figure or representative of the human race in the fact of his sin bringing spiritual death to the human race, but not by imputation of a specific sin. I guess the question might be: what is the difference between inheriting a sinful condition, and having sin imputed to you?

Tks.

Your question in 2 is exactly what we cannot agree on, even though it is explicit in Romans 12-14 that Adam's sin is NOT imputed to us.
ONLY the EFFECT of his sin is.....

JLB has introduced a new idea to the subject matter, which is the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

The Law of Sin and Death could only have come about after Moses since Paul states that being under the Law could only bring death because we are not able to keep it....this is the law of sin and death.

But it is after Moses.

Romans 8:1-4
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The Law is the law given to Moses...

 

[GodsGrace]

True. They Died Spiritually when they chose satan over God, and did what they were told not to.

That would be an assumption. Babies have no SIN - until they figure out how to, and DO IT like all humans do. SO are you using the Calvie version of "Regeneration" or the "Regeneration" = "Born Again" version that others use??

Nope it didn't. Adam followed the "James process just the same as everybody else - drawn away of HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. And like everybody else he fell like a ton of bricks. Jesus was subjected to the exact SAME process as a human man, but DIDN'T let His lust conceive.

If he "was not inclined (as a human) to SIN", then He WAS NOT tempted in every respect as we are.

Are you saying Jesus was born with the sin nature??

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I know what the question is. I have explained ad infinitum in James/Soteriology thread. You can read all about it there.

The imputation of God's righteousness is important for the reason I just gave. For it is accomplished the same way the sin of Adam is imputed.

Exactly! What is the difference? You want to say Adams sin brought spiritual death to the human race, but not by a specific sin. Well, what pray tell brought it? What was imputed? A fallen nature?

YES!!!!!

You just can't seem to accept this because you're using your own reasoning instead of what Paul tells us.

So you're saying God imputed Adams fallen nature to his race, but not his sin.

YES!!!

You can't have a fallen nature without sin. You can't have death unless you have sin.

What comes first....
THE FALLEN NATURE
OR
SINNING???

The Fallen Nature....
and thus, we can have the fallen nature without having any sin.

(Rom. 4:8) "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Sin is imputed or not imputed.

Quantrill

I wrote to you regarding Romans 4:8.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess my problem is with the term "imputed." The text clearly says that righteousness is imputed to the one having faith in Christ, but does NOT say that sin was imputed to the human race. So, I'm making a distinction between the term "imputed" as opposed to what resulted from Adam's sin. The condition of sin in the human race resulted from Adam's sin, which is different than saying it was imputed.

But I think your usage of Rom. 4:8 might be skewed, because it is in context of sins already committed. Sin is imputed to the one not forgiven of sins he has already committed. That's not the same thing as saying that sin was imputed to the human race before anyone else sinned.

I can't find your James/Soteriology thread. Can you shoot me a link? But if I have to wade through hundreds of posts just to find the answer, I'm not going to do that.

Paul, James and Sotereology​

• Thread starterwondering
• Start dateJun 3, 2021

In THEOLOGY

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry for hogging the thread...
I was gone a few days.

 

[Walpole]

I agree with all you've said except the part about Adam's sin being imputed to the entire human race due to federal headship.

If Romans 5:13 states very plainly that "SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW"....
then we must accept the fact that before The Law (Moses) sin was not imputed to man.

You had asked about Abraham and Levi when Levi was not even born yet.
I can't think of this as imputation, but it's not the subject so I won't spend too much time on this.

You also asked why I believe that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us and our sins are imputed to Him and I don't know if I ever answered you.

The reason is that we personally, did not CHOOSE to disobey God in the Garden.
It is through Adam that we are affected with his sin...(but not imputed with it).

Instead we CHOOSE to accept the free gift of Jesus which is for our salvation.
Our sins are actually (all sins - past present and future) imputed to Him...
He became sin for us...He who had no sin...
And we are imputed with His righteousness so that we can be declared right, justified, before God.
We are made right with God through Jesus....this is imputation. WE get credit for what HE did.
What HE did is reckoned to us.

We suffer the affects of Adam's sin, as tdidymas explained perfectly, better than I ever could.

The effect of Adam's disobedience of a direct command is that we are born with
the sin nature
the flesh
concupicsense
tendency toward sin
......
or whatever other word you care to use depending on what denomination you attend.

Each of us is only responsible for our own sins...
not for the sins of others.
Adam is a different person from us...he is responsible for HIS sinning.

BUT,,,,his sinning caused all of mankind to fall....

I don't know how this could be made more clear.


tdidymas
for_his_glory
JLB
PeterJens
Bob Carabbio
WIP
Chocolate Roadrunner
WalterandDebbie
Christ_empowered
Walpole
jasonc
Randy

(hope I got everyone)

Original sin is a deprivation and is only called a "sin" in an analogical sense. It is a deprivation of the original justice once held by Adam. It is not something one commits, but rather it is something one contracts by virtue of our having a human nature.

It does not mean we bear any guilt of personal fault (i.ie. sin) by virtue of our human nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

Original sin is a deprivation and is only called a "sin" in an analogical sense. It is a deprivation of the original justice once held by Adam. It is not something one commits, but rather it is something one contracts by virtue of our having a human nature.

It does not mean we bear any guilt of personal fault (i.ie. sin) by virtue of our human nature.

Agreed.
It seems very clear to me in reading Romans.
Thanks for the input.