Bible Study Help! What does this mean....

[GodsGrace]

You have made me ask a slightly deeper question. The second death is always assumed to be because of sin.
When Ezekiel cried "I am not worthy" "unclean lips" there is a sense of contamination, making that which is holy unholy.
We simplify this into sinful behaviour, but maybe that is our mistake. If I say "sin" is the only thing that makes us unclean I am wrong, because the law describes many things that can make someone unclean. To ignore this and perform holy acts is sin, but being unclean requires cleansing.

So maybe what we are inheriting is Adams status of being unclean, separate, not in communion, unable to reconcile with the Father. Our language says we inherit the sinful nature, but maybe our language is wrong. Man without communion with God is mans nature unbounded or constrained by love, so will just destroy. It is Gods presence that makes love and life flow. Our natures may simply be a reflection of what dwells within and motivates us.

A common issue with the knowledge of good and evil, is the evil we know that could be could tempt us more than the good we could do, so are corrupted by just the knowledge itself. When I hold a knife in my hand I am very aware of how dangerous it is, and am careful. But this knowledge could me I take advantage, which in love I choose not to.

A common experience in war is the elation of beating ones enemy. This hurts the consciences of many, rather than realising it is true of any competitive situation, and encourages us to win. For some this knowledge original sin becaue no truly perfect person would feel or think these things. And there we have the dilemma of empathy and survival. To survive we need the whole mixture of feelings and knowledge, while to choose to follow love and be responsible.

If Paul was using "sin" as a summary description of this uncleaness, then all falls into place.
God bless you

Perfectly explained.
I agree with all.
It is Adam's status of being unclean that we inherit...
sin is merely a result of this.
As you've stated, it is God's presence in us through the Holy Spirit that reconnects us to God...
makes us commune with Him, as you've put it.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. Were you talking to me? I thought you agreed with me on the matter, so I'm confused. I was saying that I thought the sin nature was a result of Adam's sin, not an imputation of sin. Are we on the same page?

Sorry Tdidymas,
I used the word WE when stating that "we" could not agree on your question in your no. 2....
I didn't mean You and I....I meant, those of us on this thread that are having difficulty in understanding Romans 5:12-14.
Yes, we're on the same page.

2. I don't agree with his idea that the law Paul is talking about in 5:13 is the "law of sin and death." 8:2 is talking about a principle in operation, not about a written code.

Agreed again.
I just wrote to the other member regarding this.

3. Yes, The Law is that law given to Moses which he wrote down. However, keep in mind that similar laws did already exist long before that, and was passed down through the generations. Even Cain had a law in his conscience before any "thou shalt not commit murder." That fact shows up in his lie and his fear. But Paul is using the law of Moses as a tangible item to support his argument. His argument still holds for any law that one has a conscience for, who believes it's the will of God. He talks about gentiles having law in their conscience in Rom. 2. Also, he says that before Moses death reigned, because the wages of sin is death. Therefore, his statement "sin is not imputed when there is no law" cannot mean that sin was not imputed to people who committed sins prior to Moses.

Agreed again.
The Israelites were in slavery for so many years that they couldn't "hear" God anymore....
They depended too much on Moses and (was it Aron?) for their questions regarding civil and moral procedures.
God made a "tangible" law, as you've described it so that they could know for themselves what God wanted of them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Except the Biblically ONLY the "Ground", and the Serpent are STATED to be cursed. all the rest of it are "inconveniences".

I won't debate this with you Bob.
Since Adam is the one that committed the disobedience that caused all of mankind to fall into the hands of satan,
I'd say that he was the one most cursed.
When the fields yield thistles there is no food.
If he wanted food he'd have to sweat to get it.
Farming is not easy and is not secure.

You also have not considered the other curses due to the fall:

Adam lost his connection (relationship) to God...
To other humans...
To nature...
To himself.

These are indeed a curses brought on by his disobedience.

 

[GodsGrace]

(chuckle) nope, men don't do that. I've only Raised 4 of 'em. What do you think that has to do with anything???

I've raised 2 of 'em.

What this has to do with it is that if YOU had borne those children of yours,,,you'd understand that
birthing a baby is the curse that God placed on Eve and womankind.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was born WITH A HUMAN NATURE, like us. He had to be in order to be TEMPTED in every respect AS WE ARE. The difference in Jesus was that He never let his lust "Conceive" and become SIN (James 1).

Here we have a thin red line to deal with.
Jesus was born with a human nature.
But I could reply that humans are born with the sin nature imbedded within them.
Jesus did not have the sin nature when He was born.
However, yes, He was born with the human nature.
We'll leave it at that since I agree.
He felt temptation as we do,,,,but did not yield to it and this is why He can understand us as
is written in Hebrews 4.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are a lot of points there and I can't find how to split your reply into parts to address each one.

THIS is how you split any post.
Go to the end of the sentence you wish to comment...
Just press ENTER and it'll break up as I did above.

There are numerous passages that inform us God foreordained all things as Sovereign Lord.

A few examples:
Acts 2:23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.

Acts 4:28They carried out what Your hand and will had decided beforehand would happen.


Romans 8:29
Isaiah 45:7

And of course The Lamb's Book of Life, filled with the names of God's elect before the foundation of the world.

In light of that we can have no free will. Even our choices are of God and his planning.

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

Don't want this to turn into a reformed theory thread. We have a few of those going on.
If you check the THEOLOGY forum, you'll find I'm doing a series on why calvinism is not biblical.
I'm doing T.U.L.I.P. and I'm up to the I, which will be next, as soon as I have an hour or so.
Check it out. However, I'm not responding to posts there...

I'll just say this:
GOD FOREKNEW everything.
He did not predestine everything.

Also I would disagree that the divine law of God did not exist before Moses.
God's divine law was found in the Adamic covenant, the Noahic covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant.

I think you mean the Edenic Covenant....not sure.
Which laws were in the Adamic, Noahic and Abrahamic covenants?

If God's command not to eat of the fruit was not a law, then even though sin entered the world through Adam after he disobeyed God and did eat, sin could not have been imputed on Adam or Eve. Nor could anyone sin until Moses.

Sin was imputed to Adam.
HE sinned. Sin is imputed to the one that commits the sin.
I agree that sin was not imputed to anyone until Moses and The Law.

"For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Romans 5:13-14)

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

Don't you believe the law of sin and death came after the Law of Moses?

Absolutely not. The law of sin and death was seen in the Garden.

Disobedience to God is sin.

Sin = Death


This law is what caused Adam’s sin to bring him and all his offspring death.


And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

• for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

For in the day you disobey Me to not eat of the tree, you will surely die.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Ok, I read all your posts starting at this link:

Paul, James and Sotereology

Give me a verse stating you deserve hell just for existing. Only a megalomaniac god would issue such a decree. I feel terrible for your children that their own father believes they deserve hell after having brought them into the world. I invite you to learn about Jesus Christ. He is our Good...

christianforums.net

In that link, you claim that people before Moses did not die because of their sin, but rather died because of Adam's sin. IOW, God did not impute their sins to them, but rather imputed Adam's sin to them. Did I get you right here?

Yes sir, you are reading his post right.


He may be unable to answer you right at the moment.


What are your thoughts, about what he believes about God not imputing people’s sin to them?




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely not.

Disobedience to God is sin.

Sin = Death


This law is what caused Adam’s sin to bring him and all his offspring death.


And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

• for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

For in the day you disobey Me to not eat of the tree, you will surely die.




JLB

All of the above is true....
But when Paul speaks of the law of sin and death, he's speaking of how
the Law brought brought death and Jesus brought life.

Romans 5:12-14 states that where there is no law, sin cannot be imputed.

Death came to everyone because everyone sinned.
Are you calling this the law of sin and death?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

They did not possess the requisite knowledge to choose to obey or disobey God . Because they did not possess knowledge or right or wrong. Therein they could not make a conscious choice to follow Satan by disobeying God.

Not true. Adam wasn't an IDIOT. He KNEW what God had told him NOT to do (what God's law was) and he KNEW the penalty for breaking God's Law (death). SO Adam let his lust conceive, and become SINFUL ACTION - and Died (spiritually) when he did. Just like every one of us do also.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I won't debate this with you Bob.

And then you did. That's O.K. You're confusing a CURSE, with a "consequence". Adam and Eve were NEVER "CURSED".

 

[GodsGrace]

And then you did. That's O.K. You're confusing a CURSE, with a "consequence". Adam and Eve were NEVER "CURSED".

I'm not confusing a consequence with a curse.
I used to know the covenants rather well - have forgotten a lot.
But I believe YOU are the person I asked to see if you meant the EDENIC covenant when you mentioned the ADAMIC covenant.
It may not have been you....

The Edenic Covenant was between God and Adam.
It was bi-lateral and had blessings and curses, as every bi-laterial covenant does.

The Adamic Covenant (which I THINK, YOU mentioned) was uni-lateral.

Adam broke the Edenic Covenant and so the curses became active.
You can read more about this here.

The Edenic covenant had a second part, which is often called the Covenant of Redemption. As God was informing Adam and Eve about the curses their sin had brought them, He revealed an unconditional covenant in His curse upon the Serpent when He said: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Genesis 3:15). At first glance, this sounds like a basic description of the life of a snake. Men do not like snakes, and often kill them; snakes often bite men on the feet and legs because of their proximity to the ground. But hiding in this curse is a covenant to men.

source: https://www.compellingtruth.org/Edenic-covenant.html

The UNCONDITIONAL Covenant mentioned above is the Adamic Covenant....
I'm discussing the Edenic Covenant, which came first and was bi-lateral, the covenant which brought Adam his curses (which I've underlined).

 

[JLB]

All of the above is true....
But when Paul speaks of the law of sin and death, he's speaking of how
the Law brought brought death and Jesus brought life.

Please understand that there are two laws being contrasted here in these passages.

The law of Moses, which the Jews were aware of.

The law of sin and death, which they were not aware of, in which both Jew and Gentile were guilty of, thus creating a condition where both needed a Savior.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14

• Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, (the law of sin and death) and thus death spread to all men

This is referring to Adam, being the “one man” through whom sin and death entered the human race; long before Moses was gave the law.

• For until the law (the law of Moses) sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses…

Paul is introducing “another law” which the Jews were unaware and proving that the law was indeed affecting all mankind by making a legal point. Paul details this law of sin and death in Romans 7, and how in effects all men, both Jew and Gentile.


Paul is dealing with many things in the book of Romans, one of which was the Jewish mindset of being superior to Gentiles. He dealt with this in chapter one and two.


Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Romans 2:1-3



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Please understand that there are two laws being contrasted here in these passages.

The law of Moses, which the Jews were aware of.

The law of sin and death, which they were not aware of, in which both Jew and Gentile were guilty of, thus creating a condition where both needed a Savior.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14

• Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, (the law of sin and death) and thus death spread to all men

This is referring to Adam, being the “one man” through whom sin and death entered the human race; long before Moses was gave the law.

• For until the law (the law of Moses) sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses…

Paul is introducing “another law” which the Jews were unaware and proving that the law was indeed affecting all mankind by making a legal point. Paul details this law of sin and death in Romans 7, and how in effects all men, both Jew and Gentile.


Paul is dealing with many things in the book of Romans, one of which was the Jewish mindset of being superior to Gentiles. He dealt with this in chapter one and two.


Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Romans 2:1-3



JLB

Yes, I thought this is what you were referring to.
I respect your understanding of scripture in general and will go through some parts of Romans again....

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I've raised 2 of 'em.

What this has to do with it is that if YOU had borne those children of yours,,,you'd understand that
birthing a baby is the curse that God placed on Eve and womankind.

Doesn't seem that my wife considered having kids a "Curse" like you apparently do.

Paranthetic: My wife always wanted a "Pudendal Block", but when the time came, she always delivered quickly, and by the time we got to the hospital in town, it was always too late, and she delivered naturally. The LAST TIME, we got there in plenty of time - and the Hospital couldn't locate the needle used to deliver the block - so she delivered naturally anyway.

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't seem that my wife considered having kids a "Curse" like you apparently do.

Paranthetic: My wife always wanted a "Pudendal Block", but when the time came, she always delivered quickly, and by the time we got to the hospital in town, it was always too late, and she delivered naturally. The LAST TIME, we got there in plenty of time - and the Hospital couldn't locate the needle used to deliver the block - so she delivered naturally anyway.

I didn't say having kids is a curse.

I said THE PAIN involved in birthing them is a curse given to Eve and thus every woman.

No "blocks" available till recently.
Much pain anyway.
And sometimes, death.
Especially in past times.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I didn't say having kids is a curse.

I said THE PAIN involved in birthing them is a curse given to Eve and thus every woman.

No "blocks" available till recently.
Much pain anyway.
And sometimes, death.
Especially in past times.

This is what ALL of Romans Chapter 5 is all about; verse 18:

"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what ALL of Romans Chapter 5 is all about; verse 18:

"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

I agree.

But listen to this....

If we're imputed with Adam's sin, then we're born with sin already committed, so we better hurry up and baptize those babies and get that sin forgiven.

I think this is why this is an important topic.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree.

But listen to this....

If we're imputed with Adam's sin, then we're born with sin already committed, so we better hurry up and baptize those babies and get that sin forgiven.

I think this is why this is an important topic.

Right.
So hurry up and get out there and start baptizing babies...

 

[GodsGrace]

Right.
So hurry up and get out there and start baptizing babies...

That's the point....
Adam's sin was not imputed to us.
Babies are not born with sin on their spiritual account.
No baptism necessary.