Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[watchman F]

I've quoted the verse.

Or, are you talking about the 144,000?
Well, here are the 144,000 being sealed before the wrath of God is poured out on the earth.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

We see tribulation saints already before the throne.
[quote="Rev. 7:9-14":1vuej62z]After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be
unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here we see they're in heaven when it's announced Babylon has fallen.

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

[/quote:1vuej62z]Nothing in any of your quotes say anything about the 144,000 being gathered to Christ at all much less at the end of the Trib. The great multitude are martyrs and they came out of the great trib through martyrdom.

 

[watchman F]

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

The dead in Christ will rise first!

Now as far as the 144,000...it is late and I will get back to you on this.
But something to think about..These are Jews...they are from the 12 tribes...from the children of Israel.

The dead in Christ arise when Christ returns does that passage not say that?

When does Christ return?

Matthew 24 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Exactly

 

[watchman F]

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

The dead in Christ will rise first!

Now as far as the 144,000...it is late and I will get back to you on this.
But something to think about..These are Jews...they are from the 12 tribes...from the children of Israel.

The dead in Christ arise when Christ returns does that passage not say that?

When does Christ return?

Matthew 24 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does it say Christ returns to the earth...I see us going to meet him.

I will get back to you on Matt. 24

We meet Him in the air as He is returning to Earth. We know that when Christ comes He is coming back to Earth.

 

[awaken]

We meet Him in the air as He is returning to Earth. We know that when Christ comes He is coming back to Earth.

really???

Do you believe that in the Old Testatment there are pictures of what happens in the New Testament? For instance the tabernacle is a picture of our Christian journey spiritual..

 

[Mike]

FaithTransforms, in reference to your other post to me, we have disagreed a lot on various threads , but you have never been anything by very kind. (you made reference to not insulting me)

Typo!!! I meant to say you've never been anything but very kind!!! The way it read, it sounds like I was saying you haven't been. You have a beautiful spirit. :yes

Just wanted to correct myself.

mjjcb

 

[archangel_300]

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." (Revelation 21:1)

Exactly...
And Christ reigns not for 1000 years but *forevermore*. The old order of things have passed away.
According to Revelation 20 the unsaved have already been judged according to their works. This is the end of the world, the end of time and the end of this sin tained universe. We have now passed from time now and moved on to eternity.

 

[archangel_300]

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." (Revelation 21:1)

Exactly...
And Christ reigns not for 1000 years but *forevermore*. The old order of things have passed away.
According to Revelation 20 the unsaved have already been judged according to their works. This is the end of the world, the end of time and the end of this sin tained universe. We have now passed from time now and moved on to eternity.

And to add on to what I was saying here.
Revelation 20 states that the 1000 years have already passed.

 

[Mike]

John used the expressions, "the thousand years," and, "a short time," in the same verse:

"He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (Revelation 20:3)

Some people believe that the "thousand years" in Revelation 20:3 (above) is meant to be a symbolic way of saying "a long time," but notice that "a short time" is being used in a literal way (not a symbolic way) in that same verse. Since John did not use a symbolic way of saying "a short time" (above), it is inconsistent for us to claim that John used a symbolic way of saying "a long time" in the very same verse. Therefore, the grammatical evidence leads many scholars to the conclusion that John was speaking of a literal thousand-year period of time.

Another reason for taking the "thousand years" literally is that John emphasized this phrase by using it 6 times in the space of 6 verses ( Revelation 20:2-7 ). This form of repetition in the Bible is always significant because it was a method of teaching which was used by Jewish Rabbis throughout history, and it is used periodically throughout Scripture. For example, in Genesis 2:4-9 there is a repeated emphasis on "the LORD God" (5 times in 6 verses), and this repeated emphasis on "the LORD God" is also found a few verses later in Genesis 2:15-22 (6 times in 8 verses). So the fact that John repeatedly emphasized the "thousand years" (6 times in 6 verses), plus the fact that those verses describe specific events which will happen before and after the thousand years, all support the conclusion that the Millennium will be a literal thousand-year period of time.

In Psalm 50:10 God speaks of himself as owner of all that exists. He says, "Every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." Obviously, the expression is not to be taken as exactly 1,000 hills.

Job 9:3 speaks of man's inability to box God in with arguments by saying, "Though one wished to dispute with him [God], he could not answer him one time out of a thousand."

In the New Testament, Peter says that with God one day might just as well be a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8). That is, what we think of as a long time, to God is but a very short time. Again, it is a metaphorical way of expressing this idea.

The "millennium," as a time of seemingly limited duration, is mentioned only in Revelation, a highly symbolic book. Because of the uncertainties of symbolic numbers in this book, we do not want to build a theological doctrine on such an idea.

I've underlined words that I believe are symbols, not to be taken literally, in Revelation 20.

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm wondering if you'd disagree with the symbolism other than the thousand years. As it was used metaphorically in the rest of the Bible, why should it be taken as such here?

 

[awaken]

I'm wondering if you'd disagree with the symbolism other than the thousand years. As it was used metaphorically in the rest of the Bible, why should it be taken as such here?

maybe you need to read my post..this is how John used it..and John wrote Rev.

 

[awaken]

And to add on to what I was saying here.
Revelation 20 states that the 1000 years have already passed.

Don't read that in Rev. 20...can you explain how you get that?

 

[Mike]

I'm wondering if you'd disagree with the symbolism other than the thousand years. As it was used metaphorically in the rest of the Bible, why should it be taken as such here?

maybe you need to read my post..this is how John used it..and John wrote Rev.

You mean where you talk about the thousand years and short time? I did read that. But obviously, I don't think you put the matter to rest.

 

[archangel_300]

And to add on to what I was saying here.
Revelation 20 states that the 1000 years have already passed.

Don't read that in Rev. 20...can you explain how you get that?

Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

Then the next thing that happens...

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

So the thousand years expire and Satan is released to deceive.
Then the end of the world comes heaven/earth pass away verse 11 this occurs when Christ returns at the 2nd coming. The earth and heaven are destroyed and mankind is judged according to their works verse Rev 20:12-13.

 

[archangel_300]

Again the 1000 year reign of Christ is to be figuratively understood as the entire New testament church age.

Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many

I suspect (NOT SURE) this verse in Matthew was the first resurrection and this started the 1000 reign of Christ. I suspect that when Old Testament believers died they were not immediately joined to Christ because their sins were not paid for yet. There were some exceptions like Moses/Elijah but again I think these are exceptions to the rule. After Christ's resurrection the saints that died were raised to be with Christ so they now live with him in heaven and now everyone AFTER Christ who physically dies are immediately joined to Christ because the atonement for sins has been completed.

Revelation 20:4 ...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the UNSAVED dead remained dead until Christ returns (1000 years expired) and they are gathered for judgment.

 

[awaken]

You mean where you talk about the thousand years and short time? I did read that. But obviously, I don't think you put the matter to rest.

Well if that is all you got out of it...it explains a lot!

this period is sometimes called "the" thousand years, and notice the specific events which will happen before and after the thousand years:

"...and bound him [satan] for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:2)


"... until the thousand years were ended. After that, he [satan] must be set free for a short time." (Revelation 20:3)


"...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)


"(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)..." (Revelation 20:5)


"...and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)


"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison." (Revelation 20:7)

This is unmistakably a specific block of time which has a definite beginning point and a definite ending point, and this block of time is specifically called "the" thousand years.

Bible scholars also point out that the events in chapter 20 of the book of Revelation (including the Millennium) all follow sequentially after the events described in chapter 19 (which ends with the Second Coming). This indicates that the Millennium is a specific period of time which will come after the Second Coming. For example, The Bible Knowledge Commentary says, "There is thus no linguistic or grammatical suggestion that these events are anything other than events following the second coming of Christ and occurring in sequence."

 

[archangel_300]

Bible scholars also point out that the events in chapter 20 of the book of Revelation (including the Millennium) all follow sequentially after the events described in chapter 19 (which ends with the Second Coming). This indicates that the Millennium is a specific period of time which will come after the Second Coming. For example, The Bible Knowledge Commentary says, "There is thus no linguistic or grammatical suggestion that these events are anything other than events following the second coming of Christ and occurring in sequence."

The Bible Knowledge Commentary was written by man NOT by God.

If you are saying Revelation 19 is the second coming (and we know by now at second coming the universe is destroyed) and you are saying the millenium follows in Revelation 20 and after the 1000 yeras Christ returns for judgment... that would mean the universe is destroyed TWICE and Christ returned to the earth the 3RD TIME.

No Revelation 19 is talking about Judgment Day when Christ returns... but that's where it ends.
Revelation 20 is a different facet of Revelation 19.
If we are saying that book of Revelation is written in linear time then really the world/universe was destroyed back at the end of Revelation 6.

 

[awaken]

Bible scholars also point out that the events in chapter 20 of the book of Revelation (including the Millennium) all follow sequentially after the events described in chapter 19 (which ends with the Second Coming). This indicates that the Millennium is a specific period of time which will come after the Second Coming. For example, The Bible Knowledge Commentary says, "There is thus no linguistic or grammatical suggestion that these events are anything other than events following the second coming of Christ and occurring in sequence."

The Bible Knowledge Commentary was written by man NOT by God.

If you are saying Revelation 19 is the second coming (and we know by now at second coming the universe is destroyed) and you are saying the millenium follows in Revelation 20 and after the 1000 yeras Christ returns for judgment... that would mean the universe is destroyed TWICE and Christ returned to the earth the 3RD TIME.

No Revelation 19 is talking about Judgment Day when Christ returns... but that's where it ends.
Revelation 20 is a different facet of Revelation 19.
If we are saying that book of Revelation is written in linear time then really the world/universe was destroyed back at the end of Revelation 6.

 

[awaken]

People who do not believe in this literal, future thousand-year period of time sometimes say that we are in the "Millennium" now, and that the devil was "bound" at the cross in fulfillment of Revelation 20:2-3:

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (Revelation 20:2-3)

However, this view (which says that the devil was "bound" at the cross) contradicts the New Testament passages which describe the devil as a prowling lion who is actively engaged in combat against Christians, as in these examples:

"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Peter 5:8-9)

"Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ... In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one." (Ephesians 6:11-12,16)

"I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes." (2 Corinthians 2:10-11)

The devil was certainly defeated at the cross, but he is still free and active. He has not yet been locked away and sealed in the Abyss. Since the devil will be "bound" in the Abyss at the beginning of the thousand years (Revelation 20:2-7, above), and since the devil is not "bound" yet (according to the above passages), this indicates that the Millennium is a future period of time.

For all of these reasons, the weight of Scriptural evidence supports the literal interpretation of the "thousand years" in the book of Revelation. This thousand-year reign of Christ on earth is often referred to as "the Millennium,"

 

[faithtransforms]

Another verse to consider..Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these saying Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all..."

How will the Lord come with 10,000 of his saints if we are still here on earth? Where did the saints come from?

'Duh, lol. How many saints have died since Jesus ascended? They will come with him.

 

[faithtransforms]

also a coincidence....the seven days and seven years of Tribulation? Sounds to me like you been watching to much Perry Stone. Scripture tells us that the rapture is on the same day as the return of Christ and that Christ returns after the tribulation. Now all the rest of yours, Perry's or the next guys theological mumbo jumbo has to take a back seat to the plain, simple, common sense reading of scripture.

I actually love Perry Stone, and found this a compelling argument, but it still just doesn't line up with what i see in the Word. But he is one anointed man, i've had him lay hands on me and I rec'd a word about my giftings and then walked in those giftings more boldly than i ever had before. He's a great guy with really persuasive arguments for pre-trib, i just can't reconcile them with what the bible actually says.

 

[archangel_300]

People who do not believe in this literal, future thousand-year period of time sometimes say that we are in the "Millennium" now, and that the devil was "bound" at the cross in fulfillment of Revelation 20:2-3:

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (Revelation 20:2-3)

However, this view (which says that the devil was "bound" at the cross) contradicts the New Testament passages which describe the devil as a prowling lion who is actively engaged in combat against Christians, as in these examples:

"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Peter 5:8-9)

"Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ... In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one." (Ephesians 6:11-12,16)

"I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes." (2 Corinthians 2:10-11)

The devil was certainly defeated at the cross, but he is still free and active. He has not yet been locked away and sealed in the Abyss. Since the devil will be "bound" in the Abyss at the beginning of the thousand years (Revelation 20:2-7, above), and since the devil is not "bound" yet (according to the above passages), this indicates that the Millennium is a future period of time.

For all of these reasons, the weight of Scriptural evidence supports the literal interpretation of the "thousand years" in the book of Revelation. This thousand-year reign of Christ on earth is often referred to as "the Millennium,"

No what we are saying is that Satan's power has been limited. Yes he still prowls around but the power of his deception is greatly limited. When Satan is released the purpose of his release will be to go out and DECEIVE the nations. Meaning that his deceptive powers will be greatly magnified when his chains are released and this will start the great tribulation period. After his release Satan will be able to penetrate through the ranks of the church to deceive people away from Christ when before he was not capable of doing this.

2 Thessalonians 2: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way.

Matthew 24:3 And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?â€
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

This deception will get so bad that if the great tribulation were to continue NO ONE ON EARTH WILL COME TO SALVATION IN JESUS CHRIST. But God has shortened those days so the possibility of salvation exists right up to the end.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Revelation 11 speaks about the "two witnesses" being KILLED by the beast. I honestly believe that the two witnesses here are a reference to the New Testament church. Their testimony will be destroyed so that they can no longer be God's witnesses on this earth.