Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[jasoncran]

can we not debate in civility.

 

[glorydaz]

I see a connection....

I don't believe this is the "rest" we enter into when we come to Christ. It's a troubled rest, though...

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Flaming fire taking vengence...

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

The harvest....I see grapes and vines. I see wheat and tares.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[watchman F]

Revelation does not imply that ALL die. But something like about half the population (I will do the math later). As for the judgments, see Rev chapters 6, 8,9, 11, 16. The seal, trumpet and vial judgments. These are a little more profound (greatest understatement ever made) than our current times of natural disasters.

Really? The earth is harvested. The grapes are gathered into the barn and the vines are burned up.

The birds feast on all flesh...all that have survived every mountain being moved from it's place and all the other natural disasters...to say nothing of the blood being up to the bridles on the horses, and the birds eating all flesh.

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.....And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Oh, and yum yum...I'm wondering if this is the supper for the Bride. I'm sure glad you all like that literal interpretation of Revelation. Will it be barbeque?
[quote="Rev. 19:17-18":8p2lnlwj]And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Glorydaz, I will research these scriptures.

Your sarcasm is not appreciated in this post or the "bib" post. And you call ME immature?[/quote:8p2lnlwj]Sorry you have to deal with that kind of stuff ft. That is just who glorydaz is, a get baptized then live as you want OSAS no consequences for your sin treat others however type of false believer. I wouldn't take their theology or insults too seriously. Glorydaz really has no idea what he/she is talking about on any subject, much less this one.

 

[faithtransforms]

It seems this has come down to FaithTransforms failing to understand how metaphors are used in Revelation (but doesn't condemn A-Mins) while watchman seems to believe we will perish for our understanding.

I don't believe I've seen an A-min condemn others for differences in scriptural understanding. I believe it's interesting to discuss, but not condemn.

FaithTransforms, as much as you don't understand how much I believe Revelation is written in metaphors and symbolism, I don't understand how your mind can exclude this interp.

You believe that in looking at all of heavenly hosts, there was counted a number of 144,000? He counted 144,000? You have completely dismissed the possibility that this could be a symbol of the tribes to the point that you find it incomprehensible to be otherwise. As much as I respect and admire your faith, I think you're holding to this number simply to remain constant to the 1000 year literalism. He wouldn't count 144,000! 12x12=144. 10 is a perfect number. 10x144=144,000. No one will condemn you or count your faith out if you at least acknowledge this!

I wouldn't be so hung up on this number if you haven't been completely dismissing that every number, reference and figure in Rev is to be taken literal.

I'm waiting, as have others in the past, looking up in the sky, wondering when Christ will turn off the lights, cast the stars down and bring His prophecy to fulfillment. THAT will be the end of the story! Every eye will see, every ear will hear...

mjjcb, i mean no disrespect for A-Mins. You have to understand this is the first time i have even heard of this doctrine. i read about it in a prophecy book a long time ago, but never really understood the theology behind it. it astounds me that anyone could believe that we are already in the trib and that satan is bound. i mean no disrespect by that. it just astounds me. it is so foreign to my thinking, that's all.

 

[glorydaz]

Really? The earth is harvested. The grapes are gathered into the barn and the vines are burned up.

The birds feast on all flesh...all that have survived every mountain being moved from it's place and all the other natural disasters...to say nothing of the blood being up to the bridles on the horses, and the birds eating all flesh.

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.....And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Oh, and yum yum...I'm wondering if this is the supper for the Bride. I'm sure glad you all like that literal interpretation of Revelation. Will it be barbeque?
[quote="Rev. 19:17-18":1w99f6ly]And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Glorydaz, I will research these scriptures.

Your sarcasm is not appreciated in this post or the "bib" post. And you call ME immature?[/quote:1w99f6ly]

I in no way intended to imply you were immature. When we eat barbeque, which was my point, we always wear bibs. Perhaps you aren't used to the terminology. I was making a joke and didn't have a sarcastic thought in my head. If I wanted to call you immature, I'd just come right out and say it. I was picturing a cook-out when I made my comment. And, I was speaking to those who take everything literally in Revelation....that's all I was doing. Please don't take everything I say so personally. I often post to a larger audience...those who might be reading what we post. So I won't apologize for what I said, although I am sorry you took it the wrong way.

 

[glorydaz]

Sorry you have to deal with that kind of stuff ft. That is just who glorydaz is, a get baptized then live as you want OSAS no consequences for your sin treat others however type of false believer. I wouldn't take their theology or insults too seriously. Glorydaz really has no idea what he/she is talking about on any subject, much less this one.

LOL...ever the one to open your mouth and insert your foot, aren't ya, Watchman. :yes

Your slander about what I believe only shows you have no discernment...and not much common sense, either. :biglaugh

 

[watchman F]

Sorry you have to deal with that kind of stuff ft. That is just who glorydaz is, a get baptized then live as you want OSAS no consequences for your sin treat others however type of false believer. I wouldn't take their theology or insults too seriously. Glorydaz really has no idea what he/she is talking about on any subject, much less this one.

LOL...ever the one to open your mouth and insert your foot, aren't ya, Watchman. :yes

Your slander about what I believe only shows you have no discernment...and not much common sense, either. :biglaugh

I know exactly what you believe seeing as you have spelled it out quite clearly in many threads

 

[glorydaz]

can we not debate in civility.

It would be nice if people weren't so sensitive that they immediately jump to the wrong conclusion.

Much worse, though, is the other one's comments that show a true evil intent bent on slander without any compunction whatsoever. At least my "error" was unintentional...I'll leave it at that.

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="watchman F":1jpqtuuu] Sorry you have to deal with that kind of stuff ft. That is just who glorydaz is, a get baptized then live as you want OSAS no consequences for your sin treat others however type of false believer. I wouldn't take their theology or insults too seriously. Glorydaz really has no idea what he/she is talking about on any subject, much less this one.

LOL...ever the one to open your mouth and insert your foot, aren't ya, Watchman. :yes

Your slander about what I believe only shows you have no discernment...and not much common sense, either. :biglaugh

I know exactly what you believe seeing as you have spelled it out quite clearly in many threads[/quote:1jpqtuuu]


I can't help it if you don't recognize the Truth when it's spelled out for you. :nag

 

[awaken]

2 thess 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand .
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

Notice Paul is equating the gathering together (rapture) with the Day of Christ. They are the same thing. And that will not happen until the anti-christ is revealed.

First we'll examine the post-trib interpretation of the above passage, and then we'll look at the pre-trib interpretation.

Notice that we can summarize the above passage like this...
"Concerning the coming of Christ and our being raptured to Him, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the day of the Lord has already come. That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

This paraphrase fits with every view of the Rapture, and the various Rapture views differ in their interpretation of the highlighted sections. For example, if we replace the highlighted sections of this paraphrase based on the post-trib assumption that the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming, then we get this:

"Concerning the Second Coming of Christ and our being raptured to Him, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the Second Coming has already happened. The Second Coming will not happen until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

According to the post-trib view, the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming and the Rapture. Based on this view, notice that in order for the Thessalonian Christians to believe the report that the Day of the Lord had already come, they would need to assume that they didn't notice it when the Rapture took place, and they would need to assume that they didn't notice it when the Second Coming took place! Such a situation would be impossible, because the Rapture will be worldwide in scope (involving the entire Church, including the Thessalonian Christians), and because at the Second Coming everyone in the world will see Jesus returning to the earth (Matthew 24:27-30).

In addition, notice that if the Second Coming had already taken place then the Thessalonian Christians would soon be entering into Christ's thousand-year reign of righteousness, peace, and prosperity on the earth (the Millennium). This would be a cause for joy, not alarm! Yet when the Thessalonian Christians were told that the Day of the Lord had already come, they became alarmed. If the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming and the Rapture (as the post-trib view says), notice that there was no evidence that the Rapture or the Second Coming had taken place. After all, no Christians had vanished in the Rapture, and Christ had not descended to the earth in full view of the world, so the Thessalonian Christians had no reason to believe the false reports that these things had happened.

Therefore, the post-trib interpretation of this passage results in an unrealistic situation because of the erroneous assumption that the Day of the Lord is equivalent to the day of the Second Coming in this passage. The pre-trib group and the post-trib group both use this passage to support their views, but they can't both be right. One of these groups is making some wrong assumptions. We cannot assume that the Day of the Lord is equivalent to the day of the Second Coming, and this is a wrong assumption that the post-trib group is making.


Now let's look at the pre-trib paraphrase of the above passage:

"Concerning Jesus' coming for the Church at the pre-trib Rapture, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the seven-year Tribulation has already begun. The Tribulation will not begin until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

 

[watchman F]

2 thess 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand .
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

Notice Paul is equating the gathering together (rapture) with the Day of Christ. They are the same thing. And that will not happen until the anti-christ is revealed.

First we'll examine the post-trib interpretation of the above passage, and then we'll look at the pre-trib interpretation.

Notice that we can summarize the above passage like this...
"Concerning the coming of Christ and our being raptured to Him, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the day of the Lord has already come. That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

This paraphrase fits with every view of the Rapture, and the various Rapture views differ in their interpretation of the highlighted sections. For example, if we replace the highlighted sections of this paraphrase based on the post-trib assumption that the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming, then we get this:

"Concerning the Second Coming of Christ and our being raptured to Him, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the Second Coming has already happened. The Second Coming will not happen until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

According to the post-trib view, the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming and the Rapture. Based on this view, notice that in order for the Thessalonian Christians to believe the report that the Day of the Lord had already come, they would need to assume that they didn't notice it when the Rapture took place, and they would need to assume that they didn't notice it when the Second Coming took place! Such a situation would be impossible, because the Rapture will be worldwide in scope (involving the entire Church, including the Thessalonian Christians), and because at the Second Coming everyone in the world will see Jesus returning to the earth (Matthew 24:27-30).

In addition, notice that if the Second Coming had already taken place then the Thessalonian Christians would soon be entering into Christ's thousand-year reign of righteousness, peace, and prosperity on the earth (the Millennium). This would be a cause for joy, not alarm! Yet when the Thessalonian Christians were told that the Day of the Lord had already come, they became alarmed. If the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming and the Rapture (as the post-trib view says), notice that there was no evidence that the Rapture or the Second Coming had taken place. After all, no Christians had vanished in the Rapture, and Christ had not descended to the earth in full view of the world, so the Thessalonian Christians had no reason to believe the false reports that these things had happened.

Therefore, the post-trib interpretation of this passage results in an unrealistic situation because of the erroneous assumption that the Day of the Lord is equivalent to the day of the Second Coming in this passage. The pre-trib group and the post-trib group both use this passage to support their views, but they can't both be right. One of these groups is making some wrong assumptions. We cannot assume that the Day of the Lord is equivalent to the day of the Second Coming, and this is a wrong assumption that the post-trib group is making.


Now let's look at the pre-trib paraphrase of the above passage:

"Concerning Jesus' coming for the Church at the pre-trib Rapture, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the seven-year Tribulation has already begun. The Tribulation will not begin until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

Very good try awaken, it seems you put a lot of thought into that. However the scripture reads at it is written.

2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand .
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

What it is saying is this. I alert you brethren about the 2nd coming and the gathering of us to Him/ rapture, that you be not shaken or troubled as if it could occur any day now for that day (the day of the 2nd coming and rapture) will not occur until after the church turns on Christ, and the antichrist revealed.

We will see the signs of His return, and we will know when His return is near because we will be knee deep into the tribulation having the church falling away and the antichrist ruling the Earth. This verse disprove any thought of a pretrib, any day, no signs rapture.

 

[awaken]

Very good try awaken, it seems you put a lot of thought into that. However the scripture read at it is written.

:halo

 

[awaken]

Jude 14 was mentioned earlier..which was overlooked and not explained.

Here is another scripture to examine..
Isaiah 26:20.."Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy door about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall not more cover her slain."

What is thy chambers?
Where are we hid during the tribulation/wrath?

 

[watchman F]

Jude 14 was mentioned earlier..which was overlooked and not explained.

I assume you mean when it says Christ returns with 1,000s of His saints. And indeed He does 1st Thess 3:13 says He returns with them all which would be impossible if the rapture were pretrib because if He returned with the pretrib raptured saints only then that would not include the Tribulational saints and therefore would not be all. However the the dead return from Heaven wioth Christ and the klibving are caught up to meet them in the air as Jesus is on His way to Earth exactly how 1st Thess 4:13-18 says it will happen then we will all return with Christ air His posdt tribulational 2nd coming.

1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here is another scripture to examine..
Isaiah 26:20.."Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy door about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall not more cover her slain."

What is thy chambers?
Where are we hid during the tribulation/wrath?

This is a perfect passage to prove the post trib rapture we will not be removed from the Earth during the Tribulation but taken to a place of refuge to survive it here on Earth.

 

[awaken]

This is a perfect passage to prove the post trib rapture we will not be removed from the Earth during the Tribulation but taken to a place of refuge to survive it here on Earth.

So the chamber mentioned in Is. has nothing to do with the wedding chambers? It is just a coinsidence that the Jewish wedding and scripture brings this out?

final step in the ancient Jewish marriage system was the wedding feast:

"After the marriage was consummated, the groom came out of the bridal chamber and announced the consummation of the marriage to the members of the wedding party waiting outside (Ps. 19:5; Jn. 3:29). Then, as the groom went back to his bride in the chamber, the members of the wedding party returned to the wedding guests and announced the consummation of the marriage. Upon receiving this good news, the wedding guests remained in the groom's father's house for the next seven days, celebrating with a great wedding feast.
During the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (Gen. 29:21-23, 27-28) for "the seven days of the huppah." Afterwards, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see who she was."

also a coincidence....the seven days and seven years of Tribulation?

 

[watchman F]

This is a perfect passage to prove the post trib rapture we will not be removed from the Earth during the Tribulation but taken to a place of refuge to survive it here on Earth.

So the chamber mentioned in Is. has nothing to do with the wedding chambers? It is just a coinsidence that the Jewish wedding and scripture brings this out?

final step in the ancient Jewish marriage system was the wedding feast:

"After the marriage was consummated, the groom came out of the bridal chamber and announced the consummation of the marriage to the members of the wedding party waiting outside (Ps. 19:5; Jn. 3:29). Then, as the groom went back to his bride in the chamber, the members of the wedding party returned to the wedding guests and announced the consummation of the marriage. Upon receiving this good news, the wedding guests remained in the groom's father's house for the next seven days, celebrating with a great wedding feast.
During the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (Gen. 29:21-23, 27-28) for "the seven days of the huppah." Afterwards, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see who she was."

also a coincidence....the seven days and seven years of Tribulation?

Sounds to me like you been watching to much Perry Stone. Scripture tells us that the rapture is on the same day as the return of Christ and that Christ returns after the tribulation. Now all the rest of yours, Perry's or the next guys theological mumbo jumbo has to take a back seat to the plain, simple, common sense reading of scripture.

 

[awaken]

With this in mind, notice that the following passage mentions the wedding of the Lamb, and then the wedding supper of the Lamb, and then the Second Coming:

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added, "These are the true words of God." At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." (Revelation 19:7-15)

In the above passage we see the wedding of the Lamb, and a mention of the wedding supper, and then the Second Coming of Christ. Just as a first-century Jewish bride and groom remained hidden for a period of time, Christ and the Church will remain "hidden" in heaven while the Tribulation period rages on earth. Just as a first-century Jewish bride and groom came out of hiding together after the seven days were over, Christ and the Church will come out of "hiding" together at the Second Coming (above). In the above passage, notice that the bride is wearing fine linen, bright and clean (the Greek word for "bright" has the meaning of "radiant white"), which symbolizes the righteous acts that we did while we were on the earth. Now notice what "the armies of heaven" are wearing in the above passage as they follow Jesus out of heaven down to the earth. They are wearing fine linen, white and clean, which is what the bride was wearing just a few verses earlier. God does not do anything haphazardly, so there is a reason why God showed this to the apostle John. This indicates that since we are the bride of Christ, we are also the armies of heaven. Therefore, we will come down from heaven (out of "hiding") with Jesus at the Second Coming, just as a first-century Jewish bride and groom came out of hiding together after the wedding feast. In fact, we will not become the armies of heaven because we are the armies of heaven on earth, as Ephesians 6:10-18 and other passages make clear. Since we will come out of heaven with Jesus at the Second Coming, this means that the Rapture will take place before the Second Coming.

 

[awaken]

Sounds to me like you been watching to much Perry Stone. Scripture tells us that the rapture is on the same day as the return of Christ and that Christ returns after the tribulation. Now all the rest of yours, Perry's or the next guys theological mumbo jumbo has to take a back seat to the plain, simple, common sense reading of scripture.

I do not recall quoting Perry Stone...I recall quoting scripture! Everyone has to come to there own conclusion concerning the rapture. I am just showing why I lean toward the pre-trib view! I have much more to show :D

 

[watchman F]

Sounds to me like you been watching to much Perry Stone. Scripture tells us that the rapture is on the same day as the return of Christ and that Christ returns after the tribulation. Now all the rest of yours, Perry's or the next guys theological mumbo jumbo has to take a back seat to the plain, simple, common sense reading of scripture.

I do not recall quoting Perry Stone...I recall quoting scripture! Everyone has to come to there own conclusion concerning the rapture. I am just showing why I lean toward the pre-trib view! I have much more to show :D

The thing is you quoted no scripture that would indicate a pretrib rapture. You quote pretrib theologians mumbo jumbo. the fact is no one leans toward the pretrib rapture because of scripture. They do so for multiple others reason such as that all they have been, taught, fear of the Tribulation, escapism, ect..., but never because scripture hints at it because the fact is it just doesn't. The bible is crystal clear and one sided on this issue.

 

[glorydaz]

This is a perfect passage to prove the post trib rapture we will not be removed from the Earth during the Tribulation but taken to a place of refuge to survive it here on Earth.

So the chamber mentioned in Is. has nothing to do with the wedding chambers? It is just a coinsidence that the Jewish wedding and scripture brings this out?

final step in the ancient Jewish marriage system was the wedding feast:

"After the marriage was consummated, the groom came out of the bridal chamber and announced the consummation of the marriage to the members of the wedding party waiting outside (Ps. 19:5; Jn. 3:29). Then, as the groom went back to his bride in the chamber, the members of the wedding party returned to the wedding guests and announced the consummation of the marriage. Upon receiving this good news, the wedding guests remained in the groom's father's house for the next seven days, celebrating with a great wedding feast.
During the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (Gen. 29:21-23, 27-28) for "the seven days of the huppah." Afterwards, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see who she was."

also a coincidence....the seven days and seven years of Tribulation?

I agree the wedding analogy is interesting, but I can't see it applying to the time of the tribulation. Seven is a perfect number in the Bible...that could be from the time of the wedding to the time of the consumation of the marriage. Again from the cross to the 2nd coming.

Isaiah is speaking of the peace we have in the Lord...through whatever comes.

Notice what Isaiah says here..This is speaking of the people that were raised on the day of resurrection because it refers to His "dead body". It very well could be speaking of the future, too, I don't know. But we do know that the Lord is able to hide us under the shelter of His wing...whatever may be going on around us. The fire can be raging around us like the boys in the furnace who walked out unscathed, or Noah kept safe through the flood. The Lord takes us through tribulation...he doesn't remove us from it. We are not appointed to God's wrath, however...that would be the plagues and the vials that come upon the ungodly when the earth is harvested.

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Jesus isn't in hiding...He's in the battle. John is shown the Bride right before the vials of God's wrath are poured out. That is at the end of the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the time of the antichrist and his persecution of the church. Some will be martyred, just as the Apostles were. But the bride will be gathered before the vials of the wrath of God are poured out.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,