Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[Mysteryman]

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

The dead in Christ will rise first!

Now as far as the 144,000...it is late and I will get back to you on this.
But something to think about..These are Jews...they are from the 12 tribes...from the children of Israel.

The dead in Christ arise when Christ returns does that passage not say that?

When does Christ return?

Matthew 24 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yeah, that's the problem with the pre trib scenario, there are only two resurrections. One for the saved, and one for the unsaved. This means that if the dead shall rise first, that is the first resurrection, which takes place when Christ returns.

Pre-trib actually requires more than two resurrections, and that is not biblical.

Oh contrare, There "are" two resurrections and two judgement seats. The resurrection of the just and then the resurrection of the unjust. Christians go before the "bema" seat and all others go before the "thronos" .

When you read about the first resurrection, you need to understand one of the priniciples within the Word of God -- "The first shall be last, and the last first"

first Adam -- last

Last Adam --- first

 

[awaken]

Awaken,

The thing is, it's interesting to get inside the head of tribbers, because I've never been able to. But in participating in this thread, I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

I think I've crossed the line in trying to convince you and others, when my intent has been simply to express what I believe and why. This chapter and scripture that connect with it have been studied in great detail by amins and tribbers, and both find it supporting their doctrine. Neither of us can say, "Read Rev 20. It's clear.", because it's obviously not. We wouldn't have continued debate in 2010 if it were that easy.

I agree..the arguments are strong on both sides..I have been back and forth on this..threw up my hands one time ..said "what does it matter?" God is going to protect me(be with me) through life and death!

What convinced me is the OT pictures of it..and that we are not appointed for his wrath! I like to share what I have learned too..and if I am wrong..and someone can point me in the right direction..great! I do not get offended if someone sees it different than I do. I love the written word of God..and I love to discuss it.

 

[awaken]

Oh contrare, There "are" two resurrections and two judgement seats. The resurrection of the just and then the resurrection of the unjust. Christians go before the "bema" seat and all others go before the "thronos" .

When you read about the first resurrection, you need to understand one of the priniciples within the Word of God -- "The first shall be last, and the last first"

first Adam -- last

Last Adam --- first

I see that..does that mean that the OT saints will not be resurrected until the end? Seems like I read in Daniel where he will not be resurrected until the last???

Also..the Last Adam..does that include his body (the church)?

 

[Mysteryman]

Oh contrare, There "are" two resurrections and two judgement seats. The resurrection of the just and then the resurrection of the unjust. Christians go before the "bema" seat and all others go before the "thronos" .

When you read about the first resurrection, you need to understand one of the priniciples within the Word of God -- "The first shall be last, and the last first"

first Adam -- last

Last Adam --- first

I see that..does that mean that the OT saints will not be resurrected until the end? Seems like I read in Daniel where he will not be resurrected until the last???

Also..the Last Adam..does that include his body (the church)?

Hi

Answer to your first question -- Ye, they will be a part of the resurrection on the last day. That is because they are not a part of the body of Christ.

Answer to your second question -- The Last Adam "is" the body of Christ and Christ the head. The head preceeds the body of Christ. Since the revealed mystery is heavenly/spiritual. Within the marriage, as was the custom of the day. There is a waiting period before the bride and the groom come together to become one. We are in that waiting period . Just like Mary and Joseph, before they came together, Mary was pregnant, just as the body of Christ is pregnant, before Christ and the body of Christ, the wife of Christ come together to be one. The literal sets up the understanding of the spiritual. < Mirror image

 

[awaken]

And, I disagree the weight of scripture is on a future kingdom....I see quite the opposite. There are too many holes in that theory.

What many Christians don't realize is that we will co-reign with Him during the Millennium. Notice what the Bible says:

"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him." (Daniel 7:27)

"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corinthians 6:1-3)

"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us" (2 Timothy 2:11-12)

"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father." (Revelation 2:26-27)

"with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

So the raptured Christians will co-reign on earth with Jesus for 1,000 years, along with the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation martyrs. Our individual positions of authority in the Millennial Kingdom will be determined by our earthly works of faith and obedience.

 

[awaken]

Hi

Answer to your first question -- Ye, they will be a part of the resurrection on the last day. That is because they are not a part of the body of Christ.

Answer to your second question -- The Last Adam "is" the body of Christ and Christ the head. The head preceeds the body of Christ. Since the revealed mystery is heavenly/spiritual. Within the marriage, as was the custom of the day. There is a waiting period before the bride and the groom come together to become one. We are in that waiting period . Just like Mary and Joseph, before they came together, Mary was pregnant, just as the body of Christ is pregnant, before Christ and the body of Christ, the wife of Christ come together to be one. The literal sets up the understanding of the spiritual. < Mirror image

very interesting! I see this!

John even said he was not the bride but a friend of the bride because he died before Christ was crucified. Maybe we need to start a new thread on what makes someone the body of Christ..the difference in the OT saints, NT saints and the trib. saints..

 

[Mysteryman]

And, I disagree the weight of scripture is on a future kingdom....I see quite the opposite. There are too many holes in that theory.

What many Christians don't realize is that we will co-reign with Him during the Millennium. Notice what the Bible says:

"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him." (Daniel 7:27)

"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corinthians 6:1-3)

"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us" (2 Timothy 2:11-12)

"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father." (Revelation 2:26-27)

"with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

So the raptured Christians will co-reign on earth with Jesus for 1,000 years, along with the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation martyrs. Our individual positions of authority in the Millennial Kingdom will be determined by our earthly works of faith and obedience.

Hi awaken


No, Christians do not reign with Christ during the mellenium (thousand year reign). The 144,000 do.

Christians come back with Christ for the last battle Rev.19:19 - "his army". This occurs after the thousand year reign with Christ and the 144,000.

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken


No, Christians do not reign with Christ during the mellenium (thousand year reign). The 144,000 do.

Christians come back with Christ for the last battle Rev.19:19 - "his army". This occurs after the thousand year reign with Christ and the 144,000.

When are you saying Christ comes back? ..not unti the end of the 1,000 years? I do not see that...

 

[awaken]

There will be Immortals, right? during the 1000 years..

What will life in the Millennium be like for us? Well, if we are a Church Age Christian then our physical body will be made immortal at the Rapture before the seven-year Tribulation begins (it doesn't matter if you are alive or dead at the Rapture):

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21)

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

So if we are a Christian then we will receive our glorified, immortal body at the Rapture when we are taken up into heaven (before the seven-year Tribulation begins). W will then return to the earth with Jesus at the Second Coming , and I see usl co-reigning with Him during the Millennium. If we receive salvation during the Tribulation but we don't survive until the Second Coming, then we will receive our immortal body along with the rest of the Tribulation martyrs shortly before the Millennium begins. This is how I understand it!

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi awaken


No, Christians do not reign with Christ during the mellenium (thousand year reign). The 144,000 do.

Christians come back with Christ for the last battle Rev.19:19 - "his army". This occurs after the thousand year reign with Christ and the 144,000.

When are you saying Christ comes back? ..not unti the end of the 1,000 years? I do not see that...

Hi awaken

Notice in Rev. 20:7 that after the thousand years expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison for a time. Then there is a time frame between verse 7 and verse 9. Verse 9 coincides with Rev. 19:19.

 

[Mysteryman]

All the plagues that God will pour out are upon the living flesh.

The last battle with the army of God is a spiritual battle

 

[Mysteryman]

The 144,000 are the one's who reign with Christ during the thousand year reign. They are the one's whom were beheaded, and they are the one's whom God put his mark upon their heads, and in their hands - Rev. 20:4 & Rev. 7:4

 

[watchman F]

I actually love Perry Stone, and found this a compelling argument, but it still just doesn't line up with what i see in the Word. But he is one anointed man, i've had him lay hands on me and I rec'd a word about my giftings and then walked in those giftings more boldly than i ever had before. He's a great guy with really persuasive arguments for pre-trib, i just can't reconcile them with what the bible actually says.

The fact remains what he teaches as you say CANNOT be reconciled to what God says in His word.

Ummm, watchman, that is exactly what I just said, lol. That they cannot be reconciled with the bible as I see it. You didn't need to reinforce that for me, I said it plainly twice in my post

That is all I was saying in the first place to awaken

 

[watchman F]

The 144,000 are the one's who reign with Christ during the thousand year reign. They are the one's whom were beheaded, and they are the one's whom God put his mark upon their heads, and in their hands - Rev. 20:4 & Rev. 7:4

Jesus returns before the millennium and the resurrected/raptured believers reign with Him during the Millennium.

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken


No, Christians do not reign with Christ during the mellenium (thousand year reign). The 144,000 do.

Christians come back with Christ for the last battle Rev.19:19 - "his army". This occurs after the thousand year reign with Christ and the 144,000.

When are you saying Christ comes back? ..not unti the end of the 1,000 years? I do not see that...

Hi awaken

Notice in Rev. 20:7 that after the thousand years expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison for a time. Then there is a time frame between verse 7 and verse 9. Verse 9 coincides with Rev. 19:19.

You know I have a 100+ questions now..haha

In Chapter 7 the 144,00 are sealed..these are jews(Israelites), right? Where does it say these are the ones that are beheaded..and are there any others that are beheaded during the tribulation?

Who are the ones slain under the alter in chapter 6? This is before the 6th seal..

 

[watchman F]

You know I have a 100+ questions now..haha.

If I were you I would be careful who I ask. It looks like you are getting some misinformation.

 

[faithtransforms]

Not to mention that Paul calls satan the GOD OF THIS WORLD...doesn't sound very bound to me!

He is certainly a major influence on the mind-set of the majority of people through philosophies, education, false religions, etc....they've all sprung from his lies and deception. Of course only God rules the world completely..but he has allowed Satan to operate with an agenda. He has domain over the unbelievers who are caught in the snare of the devil or in bondage to him.

Course nothing like what will happen when he's loosed...

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I'm not sure I believe the anti-christ is literally satan himself. maybe a satanist, and surely completely driven and empowered by satan, but not satan himself. Are there any scriptures that say directly that the Beast (who i have always considered to be the anti-christ) is satan himself?

 

[awaken]

You know I have a 100+ questions now..haha.

If I were you I would be careful who I ask. It looks like you are getting some misinformation.

My questions are open to anyone... :wink3

 

[archangel_300]

I'm quite aware that a lot of revelation is symbolic. I just absolutely do not and can not believe that we are already in the tribulation. Makes absolutely no sense. Why would God even bother to have John write the book if it essentially means nothing?

Who says that we are in the tribulation already?

I don't know. When do amillennialists believe the trib happens?

Ok I was thinking about your question last night and I think I was confused at what you were trying to ask. If you are asking my opinion on when the tribulation happens with respect to where we are today my answer would be "I don't know". The thing is there are signs that "appear" to be becoming more manifest and I know I have alluded to this on separate threads but I have a few lingering doubts.

For instance what is the abomination of desolation?

Matthew 24:15-16 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place†(whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Jesus seems to indicate that this is something that is visibly seen "standing in the holy place". What does that actually mean? I presume Jesus is saying "You'll know it when you see it". Since I don't think I've seen the abomination of desolation are we really in the great tribulation? There have been a few explanations out there that haven't really quite fit the bill for me yet.

I don't know how this is all going to play out? Are we in the tribulation period or are we preparing for it?

Matthew 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

I certainly don't see a bunch of people claiming they are Christ.
The only instance I've seen in todays world so far has been Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda.

But with that being said I think we are either teetering very close to the brink of it if we are not in it already.

 

[faithtransforms]

We don't know exactly when the elements will burn up with fervent heat. I don't think it is when Jesus cracks the clouds in the sky and smites the earth with the sword of His mouth.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!†then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Matthew 24:43-44 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.â€

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[a] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The other scriptures you quoted don't seem to have anything to do with the elements burning with fervent heat. But 2 Peter does. This disturbs me b/c I do take that passage literally. Hmmm....