Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[glorydaz]

I don't think a new heavens and earth mean the universe will be destroyed.

Heaven is God's throne and Heaven is everlasting...rather it's a new order of things wherein only righteousness dwells.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The earth is said to abide forever, and not be removed.

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Isaiah speaks of a new heaven and earth, but he's referring to the New Covenant and the coming of Jesus. He sits on the throne of David and His kingdom is everlasting. Once the judgment is over, all evil will have been removed from the earth and eternity with the Lord can begin.

Here the prophet is speaking of the Assyrians who were about to be destroyed.
We see fire and burning is often judgment and cleansing, but not a burning up.

The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

This is when the Romans came against Jerusalem.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The wicked are often likened to the sea....no more sea.

But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

 

[Mike]

Awaken,

The thing is, it's interesting to get inside the head of tribbers, because I've never been able to. But in participating in this thread, I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

I think I've crossed the line in trying to convince you and others, when my intent has been simply to express what I believe and why. This chapter and scripture that connect with it have been studied in great detail by amins and tribbers, and both find it supporting their doctrine. Neither of us can say, "Read Rev 20. It's clear.", because it's obviously not. We wouldn't have continued debate in 2010 if it were that easy.

 

[faithtransforms]

I'm quite aware that a lot of revelation is symbolic. I just absolutely do not and can not believe that we are already in the tribulation. Makes absolutely no sense. Why would God even bother to have John write the book if it essentially means nothing?

Who says that we are in the tribulation already?

I don't know. When do amillennialists believe the trib happens?

 

[faithtransforms]

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

The dead in Christ will rise first!

Now as far as the 144,000...it is late and I will get back to you on this.
But something to think about..These are Jews...they are from the 12 tribes...from the children of Israel.

The dead in Christ arise when Christ returns does that passage not say that?

When does Christ return?

Matthew 24 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yeah, that's the problem with the pre trib scenario, there are only two resurrections. One for the saved, and one for the unsaved. This means that if the dead shall rise first, that is the first resurrection, which takes place when Christ returns.

Pre-trib actually requires more than two resurrections, and that is not biblical.

 

[glorydaz]

People who do not believe in this literal, future thousand-year period of time sometimes say that we are in the "Millennium" now, and that the devil was "bound" at the cross in fulfillment of Revelation 20:2-3:

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (Revelation 20:2-3)

However, this view (which says that the devil was "bound" at the cross) contradicts the New Testament passages which describe the devil as a prowling lion who is actively engaged in combat against Christians, as in these examples:

"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Peter 5:8-9)

"Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ... In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one." (Ephesians 6:11-12,16)

"I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes." (2 Corinthians 2:10-11)

The devil was certainly defeated at the cross, but he is still free and active. He has not yet been locked away and sealed in the Abyss. Since the devil will be "bound" in the Abyss at the beginning of the thousand years (Revelation 20:2-7, above), and since the devil is not "bound" yet (according to the above passages), this indicates that the Millennium is a future period of time.

For all of these reasons, the weight of Scriptural evidence supports the literal interpretation of the "thousand years" in the book of Revelation. This thousand-year reign of Christ on earth is often referred to as "the Millennium,"

That's simply because you see him bound in a certain way. Jesus sets the boundaries, not man. His power is limited by God...just as God set certain limits on him with Job. The bonds were to keep him from stopping the spread of the gospel. It's like a pitbull on a chain. When he is loosed for a short time during the tribulation, you will see him performing great signs and miracles. He will successfully deceive the nations and the gospel will be stopped. Perhaps then you'll realize that satan was indeed bound. Prowling the earth like a roaring lion, but powerless over the people of God is really not that great freedom some ascribe him. "Seeking whom he may devour"...having to get permission, "may I devour you?' We resist and he flees, and he has not been able to stop the Gospel. People give satan too much credit. A time will come when he loosed....I'm just glad I have the seal of God for when that happens.

And, I disagree the weight of scripture is on a future kingdom....I see quite the opposite. There are too many holes in that theory.

 

[faithtransforms]

You believe that in looking at all of heavenly hosts, there was counted a number of 144,000? He counted 144,000? You have completely dismissed the possibility that this could be a symbol of the tribes to the point that you find it incomprehensible to be otherwise. As much as I respect and admire your faith, I think you're holding to this number simply to remain constant to the 1000 year literalism. He wouldn't count 144,000! 12x12=144. 10 is a perfect number. 10x144=144,000. No one will condemn you or count your faith out if you at least acknowledge this!

I wouldn't be so hung up on this number if you haven't been completely dismissing that every number, reference and figure in Rev is to be taken literal.

I'm waiting, as have others in the past, looking up in the sky, wondering when Christ will turn off the lights, cast the stars down and bring His prophecy to fulfillment. THAT will be the end of the story! Every eye will see, every ear will hear...

I'm quite aware that a lot of revelation is symbolic. I just absolutely do not and can not believe that we are already in the tribulation. Makes absolutely no sense. Why would God even bother to have John write the book if it essentially means nothing?

FaithTransforms, in reference to your other post to me, we have disagreed a lot on various threads , but you have never been anything by very kind. (you made reference to not insulting me) I think the situation between yourself and glorydaz was just an unfortunate misunderstanding that got out of hand. watchman is clearly not trying to be cordial in this matter - very aggressive and insulting.

In both of your responses, you didn't address the 144,000 and the implications it has on the figurative and symbolic 1000 year period. The 144,000 seems to be as symbolic and figurative as a number can be. The 1000 year period follow suit. Can you re-read the quote above and comment? You say you see a lot of symbolism in Revelation, but for some reason you take the numbers completely literally.

I think you might misunderstand aminnelliumism. We recognize that there is strife and we are going through tribulation in our lives, but not THE tribulation you are referring to. We reject this sharp reference to a literal 1000 year period. The last paragraph of my quote speaks to our belief of the second coming of Christ. That's the end of the story as we understand it.

I just don't take those numbers figuratively. I see no reason to. I take the beast with 10 horns figuratively because it is obviously figurative to me.I'm familiar with biblical numerology to some extent, i just don't think the 144k or 1k reign is figurative. I cannot find any logical reason that they should be taken figuratively. For what reason do you take them figuratively? Is there scripture other than the book of Rev itself that points to these numbers as figurative? And i don't mean cattle on 1000 hills, etc. Yes, the bible uses numbers symbolically, but any concrete reason that the 144K and 1K reign should be taken figuratively?

Also, when do amillennialists believe the trib will happen and how long do they think it will last?

 

[faithtransforms]

FaithTransforms, in reference to your other post to me, we have disagreed a lot on various threads , but you have never been anything by very kind. (you made reference to not insulting me)

Typo!!! I meant to say you've never been anything but very kind!!! The way it read, it sounds like I was saying you haven't been. You have a beautiful spirit. :yes

Just wanted to correct myself.

mjjcb

Thank you sweetie. No offense taken

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah, that's the problem with the pre trib scenario, there are only two resurrections. One for the saved, and one for the unsaved. This means that if the dead shall rise first, that is the first resurrection, which takes place when Christ returns.

Pre-trib actually requires more than two resurrections, and that is not biblical.

I feel the same way about the two judgments separated by a thousand year kingdom. There are so many holes in all these theories we come up with. I haven't found one yet that didn't have some major problem...although the amil comes the closest in my opinion. I've been in each camp at some time or other, and the resurrections and the judgments and who is alive during the tribulation...on and on. It isn't as easy as it can appear when we get down to the basic facts. There always seems to be something not quite right.

It's funny when you think about it. The disciples didn't know what Jesus was talking about half the time, so maybe we should feel like we're in good company. :biglaugh

 

[archangel_300]

I'm quite aware that a lot of revelation is symbolic. I just absolutely do not and can not believe that we are already in the tribulation. Makes absolutely no sense. Why would God even bother to have John write the book if it essentially means nothing?

Who says that we are in the tribulation already?

I don't know. When do amillennialists believe the trib happens?

As stated in my previous post, I do believe "theory" (can't claim I truly know the answer to anything)
that the tribulation will occur when Satan is released and there is great apostasy in the church.

 

[faithtransforms]

Bible scholars also point out that the events in chapter 20 of the book of Revelation (including the Millennium) all follow sequentially after the events described in chapter 19 (which ends with the Second Coming). This indicates that the Millennium is a specific period of time which will come after the Second Coming. For example, The Bible Knowledge Commentary says, "There is thus no linguistic or grammatical suggestion that these events are anything other than events following the second coming of Christ and occurring in sequence."

The Bible Knowledge Commentary was written by man NOT by God.

If you are saying Revelation 19 is the second coming (and we know by now at second coming the universe is destroyed) and you are saying the millenium follows in Revelation 20 and after the 1000 yeras Christ returns for judgment... that would mean the universe is destroyed TWICE and Christ returned to the earth the 3RD TIME.

No Revelation 19 is talking about Judgment Day when Christ returns... but that's where it ends.
Revelation 20 is a different facet of Revelation 19.
If we are saying that book of Revelation is written in linear time then really the world/universe was destroyed back at the end of Revelation 6.

We don't know exactly when the elements will burn up with fervent heat. I don't think it is when Jesus cracks the clouds in the sky and smites the earth with the sword of His mouth.

 

[faithtransforms]

People who do not believe in this literal, future thousand-year period of time sometimes say that we are in the "Millennium" now, and that the devil was "bound" at the cross in fulfillment of Revelation 20:2-3:

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (Revelation 20:2-3)

However, this view (which says that the devil was "bound" at the cross) contradicts the New Testament passages which describe the devil as a prowling lion who is actively engaged in combat against Christians, as in these examples:

"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Peter 5:8-9)

"Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ... In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one." (Ephesians 6:11-12,16)

"I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes." (2 Corinthians 2:10-11)

The devil was certainly defeated at the cross, but he is still free and active. He has not yet been locked away and sealed in the Abyss. Since the devil will be "bound" in the Abyss at the beginning of the thousand years (Revelation 20:2-7, above), and since the devil is not "bound" yet (according to the above passages), this indicates that the Millennium is a future period of time.

For all of these reasons, the weight of Scriptural evidence supports the literal interpretation of the "thousand years" in the book of Revelation. This thousand-year reign of Christ on earth is often referred to as "the Millennium,"

Not to mention that Paul calls satan the GOD OF THIS WORLD...doesn't sound very bound to me!

 

[faithtransforms]

I don't think a new heavens and earth mean the universe will be destroyed.

Yeah, i didn't either, but in one of Peter's epistles it says the elements will burn with fervent heat and i forget what else but it does seem to imply a destruction of the current world.

 

[watchman F]

also a coincidence....the seven days and seven years of Tribulation? Sounds to me like you been watching to much Perry Stone. Scripture tells us that the rapture is on the same day as the return of Christ and that Christ returns after the tribulation. Now all the rest of yours, Perry's or the next guys theological mumbo jumbo has to take a back seat to the plain, simple, common sense reading of scripture.

I actually love Perry Stone, and found this a compelling argument, but it still just doesn't line up with what i see in the Word. But he is one anointed man, i've had him lay hands on me and I rec'd a word about my giftings and then walked in those giftings more boldly than i ever had before. He's a great guy with really persuasive arguments for pre-trib, i just can't reconcile them with what the bible actually says.

The fact remains what he teaches as you say CANNOT be reconciled to what God says in His word.

 

[faithtransforms]

Yeah, that's the problem with the pre trib scenario, there are only two resurrections. One for the saved, and one for the unsaved. This means that if the dead shall rise first, that is the first resurrection, which takes place when Christ returns.

Pre-trib actually requires more than two resurrections, and that is not biblical.

I feel the same way about the two judgments separated by a thousand year kingdom. There are so many holes in all these theories we come up with. I haven't found one yet that didn't have some major problem...although the amil comes the closest in my opinion. I've been in each camp at some time or other, and the resurrections and the judgments and who is alive during the tribulation...on and on. It isn't as easy as it can appear when we get down to the basic facts. There always seems to be something not quite right.

It's funny when you think about it. The disciples didn't know what Jesus was talking about half the time, so maybe we should feel like we're in good company. :biglaugh

LOL, yeah, we are in good company :biglol

 

[faithtransforms]

[quote="watchman F":35ecx5xu]also a coincidence....the seven days and seven years of Tribulation? Sounds to me like you been watching to much Perry Stone. Scripture tells us that the rapture is on the same day as the return of Christ and that Christ returns after the tribulation. Now all the rest of yours, Perry's or the next guys theological mumbo jumbo has to take a back seat to the plain, simple, common sense reading of scripture.

I actually love Perry Stone, and found this a compelling argument, but it still just doesn't line up with what i see in the Word. But he is one anointed man, i've had him lay hands on me and I rec'd a word about my giftings and then walked in those giftings more boldly than i ever had before. He's a great guy with really persuasive arguments for pre-trib, i just can't reconcile them with what the bible actually says.

The fact remains what he teaches as you say CANNOT be reconciled to what God says in His word.[/quote:35ecx5xu]

Ummm, watchman, that is exactly what I just said, lol. That they cannot be reconciled with the bible as I see it. You didn't need to reinforce that for me, i said it plainly twice in my post

 

[glorydaz]

Not to mention that Paul calls satan the GOD OF THIS WORLD...doesn't sound very bound to me!

He is certainly a major influence on the mind-set of the majority of people through philosophies, education, false religions, etc....they've all sprung from his lies and deception. Of course only God rules the world completely..but he has allowed Satan to operate with an agenda. He has domain over the unbelievers who are caught in the snare of the devil or in bondage to him.

Course nothing like what will happen when he's loosed...

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't think a new heavens and earth mean the universe will be destroyed.

Yeah, i didn't either, but in one of Peter's epistles it says the elements will burn with fervent heat and i forget what else but it does seem to imply a destruction of the current world.

Yeah...but when we look at other instances where they talk about fire and destruction...including references to a new heaven and a new earth that relate to cleansing and change, it has to make one wonder. I keep thinking about heaven being God's house and everlasting joy and peace that awaits us as an inheritance. The Bible can use some very flowery language...some of the prophets are famous for it. I sometimes think a nuclear weapon could pretty much do it, but there are some verses that seem to say God steps in before man destroys the planet. I'm more prone to see the fire as cleansing and judgment, and...well, for all I know it could be ...well..it'd be funny, wouldn't it, if we get to heaven expecting one thing and get told it's something like this?

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

 

[archangel_300]

We don't know exactly when the elements will burn up with fervent heat. I don't think it is when Jesus cracks the clouds in the sky and smites the earth with the sword of His mouth.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!†then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Matthew 24:43-44 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.â€

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[a] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[archangel_300]

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Here we see resurrection as well as judgment on the "last day"

 

[archangel_300]

I feel the same way about the two judgments separated by a thousand year kingdom. There are so many holes in all these theories we come up with. I haven't found one yet that didn't have some major problem...although the amil comes the closest in my opinion. I've been in each camp at some time or other, and the resurrections and the judgments and who is alive during the tribulation...on and on. It isn't as easy as it can appear when we get down to the basic facts. There always seems to be something not quite right.

It's funny when you think about it. The disciples didn't know what Jesus was talking about half the time, so maybe we should feel like we're in good company. :biglaugh

LOL, yeah, we are in good company :biglol

I think when we get to heaven we're all going to find out how wrong we all are.