Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[archangel_300]

Perhaps there are more than I thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pe ... o_be_Jesus

ahh.. whatever I still don't know if we are in the great tribulation period or not.

 

[awaken]

Doesn't these scriptures tell us we will rule with him?

"Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?" Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."" (Matthew 19:27-28)

"And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-30)
In addition to "the prince" (King David) and the twelve apostles, there will also be other princes, rulers, judges, and counselors:

"The prince will have the land bordering each side of the area formed by the sacred district and the property of the city. It will extend westward from the west side and eastward from the east side, running lengthwise from the western to the eastern border parallel to one of the tribal portions. This land will be his possession in Israel. And my princes will no longer oppress my people but will allow the house of Israel to possess the land according to their tribes." (Ezekiel 45:7-8)

"See, a king will reign in righteousness and rulers will rule with justice." (Isaiah 32:1)

"Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: "Ah, I will get relief from my foes and avenge myself on my enemies. I will turn my hand against you; I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities. I will restore your judges as in days of old, your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City." Zion will be redeemed with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness." (Isaiah 1:24-27)

 

[watchman F]

Hi awaken

No, Christians do not reign with Christ during the mellenium (thousand year reign). The 144,000 do.

Christians come back with Christ for the last battle Rev.19:19 - "his army". This occurs after the thousand year reign with Christ and the 144,000.

My questions are open to anyone... :wink3

144,000 are not the martyrs it is tribulational believers. Furthermore it is the resurrected believers of all ages that reign with Christ which include the 1444,000. The martyrs in Rev 6 are the number too great to be numbered in Rev 7 and the souls under the alter in Rev 20. The 144,000 are not the martyrs they are not beheaded.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote and Question from awaken: "You know I have a 100+ questions now..haha

In Chapter 7 the 144,00 are sealed..these are jews(Israelites), right? Where does it say these are the ones that are beheaded..and are there any others that are beheaded during the tribulation?

Who are the ones slain under the alter in chapter 6? This is before the 6th seal.."



Hi awaken:

I guess you are going to keep me busy then !

Lets start with your last question first -- The one's under the altar, in chapter 6, before the the sixth seal is opened, are the members of the body of Christ.

Yes, the 144,000 that are sealed ,in chapter 7 of Rev. are all Jews. They are also called metaphorically - virgins (pure - clean) - Rev.14:4. They are sealed with the seal of God, in their foreheads - Rev. 7:3 - Rev. 14:1 (Father's name) - Rev. 20:4 - "beheaded" ---- Rev. 22:4 (shall see his face - Lamb)


I am sure you still have 99 + questions left for me to answer - :rolling
No, only these 144,000 are beheaded, and they reign with Christ for the thousand years - Rev. 20:4

 

[awaken]

Lets start with your last question first -- The one's under the altar, in chapter 6, before the the sixth seal is opened, are the members of the body of Christ.

I better stick with one question at a time..to much for me to digest at one time.

I need to get this one under the alter first. You say they are the church/body of Christ? Why are they under the altar? How did you come up with them being the church?

Well..the one question led into others..but it still about the ones under the alter. :D

 

[glorydaz]

And, I disagree the weight of scripture is on a future kingdom....I see quite the opposite. There are too many holes in that theory.

What many Christians don't realize is that we will co-reign with Him during the Millennium. Notice what the Bible says:

"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him." (Daniel 7:27)

"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corinthians 6:1-3)

"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us" (2 Timothy 2:11-12)

"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father." (Revelation 2:26-27)

"with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

So the raptured Christians will co-reign on earth with Jesus for 1,000 years, along with the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation martyrs. Our individual positions of authority in the Millennial Kingdom will be determined by our earthly works of faith and obedience.

It paints a nice picture, but it doesn't speak to a future kingdom.
The kingdom came when Jesus rose to the throne.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Our King is reigning...he must reign until all things are under His feet.
We are His body, His kingdom is within..an everlasting Kingdom....we wield the Sword of the Spirit and preach the Gospel of Truth.

All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

We're raised with Christ and seated in heavenly places. We reign with Him...in Spirit and Truth, convicting (judging) the world of sin with the message of the Gospel and backed by the power of prayer.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

We are that royal priesthood...that holy nation.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

[quote:1yrr0ti4]Exodus 19:6 - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy 14:2 - For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

[/quote:1yrr0ti4]
We won't "judge"...there is only one Judge and that is God. But the Word of God judges all men and we have the power to preach the Gospel. It's the discerner and tester of all hearts.

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

God has always ruled the nations with a rod of iron. Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, so you can rest assured he won't reign with a rod of iron. That is reserved for the ungodly. The godly are led with a shepherd's staff. After the Lord returns, there will be only righteousness dwelling in the Kingdom of God. The nations are dashed to pieces like pottery during the wrath of God...not during some future kingdom on earth.

Believers have entered into eternal life when we're born of God. We've been reigning with Christ since the cross...the thousand years are the church age...when Christ returns, our bodies will be raised, the judgment will commence and eternity will follow.

 

[glorydaz]

You know I have a 100+ questions now..haha

In Chapter 7 the 144,00 are sealed..these are jews(Israelites), right? Where does it say these are the ones that are beheaded..and are there any others that are beheaded during the tribulation?

Who are the ones slain under the alter in chapter 6? This is before the 6th seal..

You'll have even more when he gets done "explaining". Just reading along what's been written so far there are way too many holes in that story you're getting. I'll like to see some backup from the Word, but I know it isn't there...not as it's being presented.

 

[glorydaz]

He is certainly a major influence on the mind-set of the majority of people through philosophies, education, false religions, etc....they've all sprung from his lies and deception. Of course only God rules the world completely..but he has allowed Satan to operate with an agenda. He has domain over the unbelievers who are caught in the snare of the devil or in bondage to him.

Course nothing like what will happen when he's loosed...

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I'm not sure I believe the anti-christ is literally satan himself. maybe a satanist, and surely completely driven and empowered by satan, but not satan himself. Are there any scriptures that say directly that the Beast (who i have always considered to be the anti-christ) is satan himself?

I wish I could tell you that one, Faith. Some say satan is the False Prophet (the man behind the Beast), but I don't know for sure either way. He has power and is behind it somehow, that's as much as I can say. Sorry.

 

[Mysteryman]

Lets start with your last question first -- The one's under the altar, in chapter 6, before the the sixth seal is opened, are the members of the body of Christ.

I better stick with one question at a time..to much for me to digest at one time.

I need to get this one under the alter first. You say they are the church/body of Christ? Why are they under the altar? How did you come up with them being the church?

Well..the one question led into others..but it still about the ones under the alter. :D

Hi awaken

Its actually very simple to come to this conclusion. The first one raised from the dead and ascended into heaven is Christ. He is the head of the body. The body of Christ follow the head within this resurrection, which is the resurrection of the just. And only those whom have lived on this earth have souls. The scripture that backs this up is I Corinth. 15:23 - "But every man in his own order : Christ the firstfruits' afterward they that are Christ's at his coming"

Why are they under the altar ? The altar is a place for sacrifice. Remember me telling you once, that we are the burnt offering that Jesus Christ didn't fulfill this part of the law ? But those IN Christ, who are a part of the Last Adam , fulfill this part of the law. We are the burnt offering. Read II Chronicles 29:18 & 19

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken

Its actually very simple to come to this conclusion. The first one raised from the dead and ascended into heaven is Christ. He is the head of the body. The body of Christ follow the head within this resurrection, which is the resurrection of the just. And only those whom have lived on this earth have souls. The scripture that backs this up is I Corinth. 15:23 - "But every man in his own order : Christ the firstfruits' afterward they that are Christ's at his coming"

Why are they under the altar ? The altar is a place for sacrifice. Remember me telling you once, that we are the burnt offering that Jesus Christ didn't fulfill this part of the law ? But those IN Christ, who are a part of the Last Adam , fulfill this part of the law. We are the burnt offering. Read II Chronicles 29:18 & 19

Interesting how they are set apart in 2 Chronicles...and as the bride we are set apart..

So when the church is raptured they are put under the altar? Waiting????

 

[faithtransforms]

What many Christians don't realize is that we will co-reign with Him during the Millennium. Notice what the Bible says: "Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him." (Daniel 7:27) "If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corinthians 6:1-3) "Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us" (2 Timothy 2:11-12) "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father." (Revelation 2:26-27) "with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10) "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4) "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6) So the raptured Christians will co-reign on earth with Jesus for 1,000 years, along with the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation martyrs. Our individual positions of authority in the Millennial Kingdom will be determined by our earthly works of faith and obedience.

Awaken, what about this scripture:

John 6:39 KJVAnd this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day.

Notice, at the last day. The last day is NOT the rapture. Jesus is saying he will raise us up on the last day. How do you respond to this? Do you believe there will be two resurrections of the righteous?

 

[faithtransforms]

I actually love Perry Stone, and found this a compelling argument, but it still just doesn't line up with what i see in the Word. But he is one anointed man, i've had him lay hands on me and I rec'd a word about my giftings and then walked in those giftings more boldly than i ever had before. He's a great guy with really persuasive arguments for pre-trib, i just can't reconcile them with what the bible actually says.

The fact remains what he teaches as you say CANNOT be reconciled to what God says in His word.

Ummm, watchman, that is exactly what I just said, lol. That they cannot be reconciled with the bible as I see it. You didn't need to reinforce that for me, I said it plainly twice in my post [/quote]

That is all I was saying in the first place to awaken

oh ok, lol

 

[faithtransforms]

I'm quite aware that a lot of revelation is symbolic. I just absolutely do not and can not believe that we are already in the tribulation. Makes absolutely no sense. Why would God even bother to have John write the book if it essentially means nothing?

Who says that we are in the tribulation already?

I don't know. When do amillennialists believe the trib happens?

Ok I was thinking about your question last night and I think I was confused at what you were trying to ask. If you are asking my opinion on when the tribulation happens with respect to where we are today my answer would be "I don't know". The thing is there are signs that "appear" to be becoming more manifest and I know I have alluded to this on separate threads but I have a few lingering doubts.

For instance what is the abomination of desolation?

Matthew 24:15-16 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place†(whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Jesus seems to indicate that this is something that is visibly seen "standing in the holy place". What does that actually mean? I presume Jesus is saying "You'll know it when you see it". Since I don't think I've seen the abomination of desolation are we really in the great tribulation? There have been a few explanations out there that haven't really quite fit the bill for me yet.

I don't know how this is all going to play out? Are we in the tribulation period or are we preparing for it?

Matthew 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

I certainly don't see a bunch of people claiming they are Christ.
The only instance I've seen in todays world so far has been Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda.

But with that being said I think we are either teetering very close to the brink of it if we are not in it already.

The abomination of desolation is what Daniel wrote about and will be the anti christ sitting in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem claiming himself to be God. So you do believe in a literal anti christ? The big one, not the many that have already "gone out into the world?" Do you believe it will last seven years?

And in another post you said satan's power to deceive is very limited. Huh? Look at this world!! They are mired in lies and deception, false religion, new ageism, humanism and on and on and on...

This world is extremely deceived. Of the approx 1 billion Christians on this earth (i think that's the figure), I don't even think half of them are saved. There is great deception in the church too.

 

[archangel_300]

The abomination of desolation is what Daniel wrote about and will be the anti christ sitting in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem claiming himself to be God. So you do believe in a literal anti christ? The big one, not the many that have already "gone out into the world?" Do you believe it will last seven years?

And in another post you said satan's power to deceive is very limited. Huh? Look at this world!! They are mired in lies and deception, false religion, new ageism, humanism and on and on and on...

This world is extremely deceived. Of the approx 1 billion Christians on this earth (i think that's the figure), I don't even think half of them are saved. There is great deception in the church too.

To clarify what I meant by "Satan's power to deceive was very limited" I was referring to the time starting after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Glory and I both believe that there was some sort of limitation to Satan's power. I don't think that Satan is allowed to decieve people in the same way he is able to decieve them once he is released from his chains. You are seeing the world today as it is and perhaps Satan is already released?

A literal anti christ is one thing I'm really not sure about. In 2 thessalonians 2 this seems to suggest a literal "man of sin"... but at the same time you have verses in Isaiah stating that Lucifer is a "man"
I'm really not sure about this.

I'm also not convinced that the tribulation period is 7 literal years. From what I remember other people stating scripture verses regarding this but I just had strange feeling they were not understanding the passage correctly.

Can you point me to the scriptures that state the anti christ will rebuild the temple and the tribulation period is 7 years? I'd like to check this out again.

 

[archangel_300]

Faith/or anyone. Can you point me to some good external resources supporting the 7 year tribulation and the rebuilding of the temple by the anti christ. I want to fully understand this position first before I draw any conclusions about it.

 

[awaken]

Awaken, what about this scripture:

John 6:39 KJVAnd this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day.

Notice, at the last day. The last day is NOT the rapture. Jesus is saying he will raise us up on the last day. How do you respond to this? Do you believe there will be two resurrections of the righteous?

I am going to answer your question with a question to prove what I am going to try to explain to you...

In Acts 2:16..when he says in the last days this will come to pass...I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy....

Are we not in the last days? Could Jesus (in John) be referring to the last day before the trib.? Couldn't he be talking about the rapture in context?

If you will notice in Rev. there are many pictures of different groups in heaven at different times.

 

[awaken]

MM... I see that it describes a persecution and martyrdom of Christians during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation:

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)

This persecution of Christians during the first half of the Tribulation will be carried out by "Mystery Babylon," which will be a one-world religious system during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation period:

"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished." (Revelation 17:1-6)

The above passage tells us that the kings of the earth will commit "spiritual adultery" with this "prostitute," which indicates that this will be a one-world religious system. This false religious system will be "drunk with the blood of the saints," which tells us that it will be responsible for a massive persecution of Christians. These Christians are people who were left behind at the Rapture (because they were unsaved at the time of the Rapture), and they received salvation at some point during the seven-year Tribulation.

The Antichrist will break his treaty with Israel at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation period, and then he will begin a terrible persecution of the nation of Israel.

Consider that all Christians will be "snatched up" to meet the Lord in the air when He comes for us at the Rapture, and therefore those who are left behind will all be unsaved. During the seven-year Tribulation there will be multitudes of people who will receive salvation, and they are all referred to as "saints" in the book of Revelation, just as Christians are referred to as "saints" (e.g. Ephesians 1:1), and just as all of the righteous people in Old Testament times are called "saints" (e.g. Psalm 30:4). Since there will be "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Revelation 7:9) who will receive salvation after the Rapture (according to the pre-trib view), this means that people will have a "second chance" to receive salvation after being left behind at the Rapture. However, those who are so hardened to the Gospel that they "refused to love the truth and so be saved" will be under a powerful delusion which will cause them to believe the Antichrist's lies (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11).

Again, the Tribulation will be a seven-year period of time during which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. Multitudes of people will receive salvation during the Tribulation, but they will be persecuted by the "Mystery Babylon" religious system during the first half of the Tribulation. In addition, the Christians and the nation of Israel will be persecuted by the Antichrist during the second half of the Tribulation

 

[faithtransforms]

Awaken, what about this scripture:

John 6:39 KJVAnd this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day.

Notice, at the last day. The last day is NOT the rapture. Jesus is saying he will raise us up on the last day. How do you respond to this? Do you believe there will be two resurrections of the righteous?

I am going to answer your question with a question to prove what I am going to try to explain to you...

In Acts 2:16..when he says in the last days this will come to pass...I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy....

Are we not in the last days? Could Jesus (in John) be referring to the last day before the trib.? Couldn't he be talking about the rapture in context?

If you will notice in Rev. there are many pictures of different groups in heaven at different times.

Yes, but He says the last DAY. Not days. I belive there is a difference.

 

[awaken]

Yes, but He says the last DAY. Not days. I belive there is a difference.

Is it? It is the same greek word "Hemera"

"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:2)
The above verse says that "now is the day of salvation." Notice that if the day when the apostle Paul wrote the above verse was the day of salvation, then no-one would be able to receive salvation after that day. Fortunately for us, we are still in "the day of salvation," which means that the word "day" in this passage is not a 24-hour day. The "day of salvation" has lasted for almost 2,000 years.

 

[Mysteryman]

MM... I see that it describes a persecution and martyrdom of Christians during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation:

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)

This persecution of Christians during the first half of the Tribulation will be carried out by "Mystery Babylon," which will be a one-world religious system during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation period:

"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished." (Revelation 17:1-6)

The above passage tells us that the kings of the earth will commit "spiritual adultery" with this "prostitute," which indicates that this will be a one-world religious system. This false religious system will be "drunk with the blood of the saints," which tells us that it will be responsible for a massive persecution of Christians. These Christians are people who were left behind at the Rapture (because they were unsaved at the time of the Rapture), and they received salvation at some point during the seven-year Tribulation.

The Antichrist will break his treaty with Israel at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation period, and then he will begin a terrible persecution of the nation of Israel.

Consider that all Christians will be "snatched up" to meet the Lord in the air when He comes for us at the Rapture, and therefore those who are left behind will all be unsaved. During the seven-year Tribulation there will be multitudes of people who will receive salvation, and they are all referred to as "saints" in the book of Revelation, just as Christians are referred to as "saints" (e.g. Ephesians 1:1), and just as all of the righteous people in Old Testament times are called "saints" (e.g. Psalm 30:4). Since there will be "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Revelation 7:9) who will receive salvation after the Rapture (according to the pre-trib view), this means that people will have a "second chance" to receive salvation after being left behind at the Rapture. However, those who are so hardened to the Gospel that they "refused to love the truth and so be saved" will be under a powerful delusion which will cause them to believe the Antichrist's lies (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11).

Again, the Tribulation will be a seven-year period of time during which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. Multitudes of people will receive salvation during the Tribulation, but they will be persecuted by the "Mystery Babylon" religious system during the first half of the Tribulation. In addition, the Christians and the nation of Israel will be persecuted by the Antichrist during the second half of the Tribulation

Hi awaken

Okay, lol , its time for you to slow down. Now we are rushing and this is going to cause many misunderstandings.


You are now drowing your food with too much salt and pepper.

I am talking about your very first comment above.

The first thing I am going to ask you, is how you now have Christians within the tribulation ? And I also need to ask you, which tribulation are you talking about ? The tribulation of the world, or the tribulation from or of God ? You also throw the word "Christian" into your sentences as if you pulled this word out of thin air. Your first few comments need to be backed up by scripture , when and where the words "christian" and "tribulation", become one within scripture. And if these two words do not enter into one comment in scripture. You need to ask yourself, as to why you used them in such a manner.

You said - "Christians left behind at the rapture because they were not saved" <<<< ????????

Do you see why it is so difficult to reply to a post like this, which has way too many comments that are just thrown together without any thought from which they were derived ?

Revelation 6:11 is the word "brethren" < Not "brother" ! And especially not the word - "Christian"

Do you see how easily one can get side tracked by using misinformation ?

Jesus Christ had disciples whom he chose. Then Jesus Christ had followers. Jesus also said that there are two folds. My sheep hear my voice. But that there are two folds.

Plus, the fact that all true Christians are saved by grace. Saved means "from" or "for"

Please try and not take this the wrong way. But, there are times that many try to enter a higher level of understanding, before they are ready to receive. Like a 7th grader trying to get their doctorate degree once they pass the 7th grade. And they haven't even entered high school yet. I know this is why you ask questions, so that you can elevate your learning from a spiritual understanding. I recognize this,and it is great that you desire to grow spiritually. But there are times one needs to slow down and grasp some of the more simple things first. I call it -- getting back to the basics. For instance - God is a God of two of everything. This is why Jesus said that he had two folds. And this is why the tribulation of God is in two parts as well. And this is why two seals pertain to the tribulation of God. The sixth seal is the tribulation of God, the seventh seal is the great tribulation of God.

I want you to grow spiritually, but I also do not want you to try and grow spiritually too fast.

We now live in the fifth seal, and the church, the body of Christ will be reusrrected just prior to the end of the fifth seal, and before the opening of the sixth seal. The whole Word of God is a mirror image of itself. This is why the Word of God is from paradise unto paradise - Genesis to Revelation. Two shall become one. That is because God is one, and a God of two of everything. Also remember that many are called, but few are chosen.

We now are in the grace dispensation. The grace dispenstaion is also the fulfilling of the law. Christ came to fulfill the law dispensation. He came to fulfill the law, and the bondage of the law. The grace dispensation is a continuance of the fulfilling of the law. We Christians are the burnt offering. We Christians are the Last Adam. We Christians are the Isaac , the promised seed. We are under the altar of God, the sacrificed of God. WE have been cleased by his blood. We are the righteous of God, through Christ. We are the sanctified, the justified , the redeemed of God.

And you can just imagine the "comfort" Abraham felt, when God showed him the ram in the thicket, and told him to sacrifice the ram in place of Isaac. And you can also imagine the comfort of Isaac . Now God tells us to comfort one another, that we will not go through any part of the wrath of God. God has given us the comfort of Abraham, as well as the comfort Isaac felt as well, because indeed, we are of the promise seed.

Bless