Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[veteran]

Faith/or anyone. Can you point me to some good external resources supporting the 7 year tribulation and the rebuilding of the temple by the anti christ. I want to fully understand this position first before I draw any conclusions about it.

Allow me to butt in.

There's nothing written saying that the antichrist will actually build another temple in Jerusalem. But there is Scripture pointing to a rebuilt temple for him to sit in.

In Matt.24 our Lord Jesus warned His disciples when you see the "abomination of desolation" Daniel wrote of, stand in the "holy place", then flee to the mountains. Christ and His disciples were on the Mount of Olives overlooking the Temple Mount when He gave that. His disciples had just marveled at the temple and associated buildings.

Around 170 B.C. there was already an "ensample" of a false one who entered the temple, desolated it by a false sacrifice of swine, and placing of idol worship. That was Antiochus Epiphanes. What he did fit the Daniel blueprint very well. Yet that already was past history when our Lord warned of another coming to desolate the "holy place" inside the temple. In 70 A.D. the Jerusalem temple was destroyed by fire, before idol worship could take place inside it. Thus we are to look forward for another who is to come and do another desolation like what Antiochus did. And that would require an existing temple in Jerusalem.

In Rev.11:1-2, John is told to use a reed likened to a rod to measure the temple and those worship therein, but to leave the outer court out, for the Gentiles are to tread it for 42 months. That's the same time as the 1260 days, or three and one half years of Daniel. It's also the time God's "two witnesses" will appear and give a testimony for 1260 days, and then be killed by the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, Apostle Paul warns of a false one coming to exalt himself above all that is worshipped, warning that he is to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That is the same abomination sin that Satan did originally, seeking to sit in God's Throne in place of God, so as to be worshipped as God. Satan wants all to bow and worship him in place of Christ.

Might want to keep up with the Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful group in Jerusalem today who already have the materials ready to build another temple in Jerusalem.

 

[awaken]

Please try and not take this the wrong way. But, there are times that many try to enter a higher level of understanding, before they are ready to receive. Like a 7th grader trying to get their doctorate degree once they pass the 7th grade. And they haven't even entered high school yet. I know this is why you ask questions, so that you can elevate your learning from a spiritual understanding. I recognize this,and it is great that you desire to grow spiritually. But there are times one needs to slow down and grasp some of the more simple things first. I call it -- getting back to the basics. For instance - God is a God of two of everything. This is why Jesus said that he had two folds. And this is why the tribulation of God is in two parts as well. And this is why two seals pertain to the tribulation of God. The sixth seal is the tribulation of God, the seventh seal is the great tribulation of God.

I want you to grow spiritually, but I also do not want you to try and grow spiritually too fast.


Bless

I appreciate what you said here in love...and you are right! I love the word..and I always want to know more than I can handle(digest). Because I get way over my head and get fustrated in my studies. Thank you for your comments. I will re evaluate my notes in light of your post...you have really sparked my interest (as always) with the two folds of sheep???

Most of my confusion comes in trying to understand scripture on what I was taught instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach me.

ONe reason I like to share what I was taught and how I understand things is ...so if I am wrong..someone can come along and point me in the right direction...

Well..back to my studies...

 

[Mysteryman]

Please try and not take this the wrong way. But, there are times that many try to enter a higher level of understanding, before they are ready to receive. Like a 7th grader trying to get their doctorate degree once they pass the 7th grade. And they haven't even entered high school yet. I know this is why you ask questions, so that you can elevate your learning from a spiritual understanding. I recognize this,and it is great that you desire to grow spiritually. But there are times one needs to slow down and grasp some of the more simple things first. I call it -- getting back to the basics. For instance - God is a God of two of everything. This is why Jesus said that he had two folds. And this is why the tribulation of God is in two parts as well. And this is why two seals pertain to the tribulation of God. The sixth seal is the tribulation of God, the seventh seal is the great tribulation of God.

I want you to grow spiritually, but I also do not want you to try and grow spiritually too fast.


Bless

I appreciate what you said here in love...and you are right! I love the word..and I always want to know more than I can handle(digest). Because I get way over my head and get fustrated in my studies. Thank you for your comments. I will re evaluate my notes in light of your post...you have really sparked my interest (as always) with the two folds of sheep???

Most of my confusion comes in trying to understand scripture on what I was taught instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach me.

ONe reason I like to share what I was taught and how I understand things is ...so if I am wrong..someone can come along and point me in the right direction...

Well..back to my studies...

Hi awaken

Bless your heart. I am blessed that you understood my post in light of the love that it was given. You should talk to my wife - lol. She is the one who has had to put up with me for the last 38 years. :D

She has become like a ball, from whom I bounce certain understandings off of, from time to time. Just to see how what I tell her, will be received. Trust me, she asks for further understanding when what I share with her is not totally understood by her. So what I do, is bring her back to the basics, then explain up from that point. She seems to understand much easier when I do that.

Many need to grow spiritually, and this is the will of God that we all do so. This is why God sent apostles, prophets, teachers , evangilists, and pastors. God is the one who gives the increase, and all these men of God can do is plant and water. We all grow when God opens up the eyes of our understanding. This is why we pray and believe and ask God for spiritual growth in our lives.

So stay faithful, in prayer and supplication, and let every request be made known unto God, through his Son's name Jesus Christ.

Bless - MM

 

[archangel_300]

Allow me to butt in.

There's nothing written saying that the antichrist will actually build another temple in Jerusalem. But there is Scripture pointing to a rebuilt temple for him to sit in.

In Matt.24 our Lord Jesus warned His disciples when you see the "abomination of desolation" Daniel wrote of, stand in the "holy place", then flee to the mountains. Christ and His disciples were on the Mount of Olives overlooking the Temple Mount when He gave that. His disciples had just marveled at the temple and associated buildings.

Around 170 B.C. there was already an "ensample" of a false one who entered the temple, desolated it by a false sacrifice of swine, and placing of idol worship. That was Antiochus Epiphanes. What he did fit the Daniel blueprint very well. Yet that already was past history when our Lord warned of another coming to desolate the "holy place" inside the temple. In 70 A.D. the Jerusalem temple was destroyed by fire, before idol worship could take place inside it. Thus we are to look forward for another who is to come and do another desolation like what Antiochus did. And that would require an existing temple in Jerusalem.

In Rev.11:1-2, John is told to use a reed likened to a rod to measure the temple and those worship therein, but to leave the outer court out, for the Gentiles are to tread it for 42 months. That's the same time as the 1260 days, or three and one half years of Daniel. It's also the time God's "two witnesses" will appear and give a testimony for 1260 days, and then be killed by the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, Apostle Paul warns of a false one coming to exalt himself above all that is worshipped, warning that he is to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That is the same abomination sin that Satan did originally, seeking to sit in God's Throne in place of God, so as to be worshipped as God. Satan wants all to bow and worship him in place of Christ.

Might want to keep up with the Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful group in Jerusalem today who already have the materials ready to build another temple in Jerusalem.

Thank you veteran.
Ok, I'm not sure where to begin tackling this but let's start off first with the "temple" where the "anti christ" will sit. Who says that this is a literal temple that is rebuilt and not the body of Christ?
Where does it say in the Bible that a physical temple will be rebuilt? I don't see this anywhere.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “ I will dwell in themAnd walk among them.I will be their God,And they shall be My people

The biblical definition of the "temple of God" is the body of believers in Jesus Christ.
So when reading 2 Thessalonians 2, at this point I have no reason to believe this is a physical temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Mysteryman]

Allow me to butt in.

There's nothing written saying that the antichrist will actually build another temple in Jerusalem. But there is Scripture pointing to a rebuilt temple for him to sit in.

In Matt.24 our Lord Jesus warned His disciples when you see the "abomination of desolation" Daniel wrote of, stand in the "holy place", then flee to the mountains. Christ and His disciples were on the Mount of Olives overlooking the Temple Mount when He gave that. His disciples had just marveled at the temple and associated buildings.

Around 170 B.C. there was already an "ensample" of a false one who entered the temple, desolated it by a false sacrifice of swine, and placing of idol worship. That was Antiochus Epiphanes. What he did fit the Daniel blueprint very well. Yet that already was past history when our Lord warned of another coming to desolate the "holy place" inside the temple. In 70 A.D. the Jerusalem temple was destroyed by fire, before idol worship could take place inside it. Thus we are to look forward for another who is to come and do another desolation like what Antiochus did. And that would require an existing temple in Jerusalem.

In Rev.11:1-2, John is told to use a reed likened to a rod to measure the temple and those worship therein, but to leave the outer court out, for the Gentiles are to tread it for 42 months. That's the same time as the 1260 days, or three and one half years of Daniel. It's also the time God's "two witnesses" will appear and give a testimony for 1260 days, and then be killed by the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, Apostle Paul warns of a false one coming to exalt himself above all that is worshipped, warning that he is to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That is the same abomination sin that Satan did originally, seeking to sit in God's Throne in place of God, so as to be worshipped as God. Satan wants all to bow and worship him in place of Christ.

Might want to keep up with the Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful group in Jerusalem today who already have the materials ready to build another temple in Jerusalem.

Thank you veteran.
Ok, I'm not sure where to begin tackling this but let's start off first with the "temple" where the "anti christ" will sit. Who says that this is a literal temple that is rebuilt and not the body of Christ?
Where does it say in the Bible that a physical temple will be rebuilt? I don't see this anywhere.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “ I will dwell in themAnd walk among them.I will be their God,And they shall be My people

The biblical definition of the "temple of God" is the body of believers in Jesus Christ.
So when reading 2 Thessalonians 2, at this point I have no reason to believe this is a physical temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Hi

The word "temple" in the NT , means --- Knowledge of God

The false Christ will act like the knowledge of God. The son of perdition, is the fallen angel, Lucifer.

Many will follow his pernicious ways - II Peter 2:1 - 3. by way of false prophets and false teachers.

 

[archangel_300]

Hi

The word "temple" in the NT , means --- Knowledge of God

The false Christ will act like the knowledge of God. The son of perdition, is the fallen angel, Lucifer.

Many will follow his pernicious ways - II Peter 2:1 - 3. by way of false prophets and false teachers.

Hi mysteryman, thank you.
Yes I agree that false prophets and teachers will lead astray many during the end times.

This temple is located everywhere the body of believers are present and its not restricted to one specific location in Jerusalem. It's where God dwells and the Old Testament "temple" was a shadow of what the true temple is. That God dwells among and in His people.

 

[faithtransforms]

Yes, but He says the last DAY. Not days. I belive there is a difference.

Is it? It is the same greek word "Hemera"

"For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:2)
The above verse says that "now is the day of salvation." Notice that if the day when the apostle Paul wrote the above verse was the day of salvation, then no-one would be able to receive salvation after that day. Fortunately for us, we are still in "the day of salvation," which means that the word "day" in this passage is not a 24-hour day. The "day of salvation" has lasted for almost 2,000 years.

Yes, but a word can have multiple connotations.

 

[faithtransforms]

Faith/or anyone. Can you point me to some good external resources supporting the 7 year tribulation and the rebuilding of the temple by the anti christ. I want to fully understand this position first before I draw any conclusions about it.

Allow me to butt in.

There's nothing written saying that the antichrist will actually build another temple in Jerusalem. But there is Scripture pointing to a rebuilt temple for him to sit in.

In Matt.24 our Lord Jesus warned His disciples when you see the "abomination of desolation" Daniel wrote of, stand in the "holy place", then flee to the mountains. Christ and His disciples were on the Mount of Olives overlooking the Temple Mount when He gave that. His disciples had just marveled at the temple and associated buildings.

Around 170 B.C. there was already an "ensample" of a false one who entered the temple, desolated it by a false sacrifice of swine, and placing of idol worship. That was Antiochus Epiphanes. What he did fit the Daniel blueprint very well. Yet that already was past history when our Lord warned of another coming to desolate the "holy place" inside the temple. In 70 A.D. the Jerusalem temple was destroyed by fire, before idol worship could take place inside it. Thus we are to look forward for another who is to come and do another desolation like what Antiochus did. And that would require an existing temple in Jerusalem.

In Rev.11:1-2, John is told to use a reed likened to a rod to measure the temple and those worship therein, but to leave the outer court out, for the Gentiles are to tread it for 42 months. That's the same time as the 1260 days, or three and one half years of Daniel. It's also the time God's "two witnesses" will appear and give a testimony for 1260 days, and then be killed by the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, Apostle Paul warns of a false one coming to exalt himself above all that is worshipped, warning that he is to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That is the same abomination sin that Satan did originally, seeking to sit in God's Throne in place of God, so as to be worshipped as God. Satan wants all to bow and worship him in place of Christ.

Might want to keep up with the Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful group in Jerusalem today who already have the materials ready to build another temple in Jerusalem.

:yes

 

[faithtransforms]

This persecution of Christians during the first half of the Tribulation will be carried out by "Mystery Babylon," which will be a one-world religious system during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation period:

"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished." (Revelation 17:1-6)

The above passage tells us that the kings of the earth will commit "spiritual adultery" with this "prostitute," which indicates that this will be a one-world religious system. This false religious system will be "drunk with the blood of the saints," which tells us that it will be responsible for a massive persecution of Christians. These Christians are people who were left behind at the Rapture (because they were unsaved at the time of the Rapture), and they received salvation at some point during the seven-year Tribulation.

The Antichrist will break his treaty with Israel at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation period, and then he will begin a terrible persecution of the nation of Israel.

Consider that all Christians will be "snatched up" to meet the Lord in the air when He comes for us at the Rapture, and therefore those who are left behind will all be unsaved. During the seven-year Tribulation there will be multitudes of people who will receive salvation, and they are all referred to as "saints" in the book of Revelation, just as Christians are referred to as "saints" (e.g. Ephesians 1:1), and just as all of the righteous people in Old Testament times are called "saints" (e.g. Psalm 30:4). Since there will be "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Revelation 7:9) who will receive salvation after the Rapture (according to the pre-trib view), this means that people will have a "second chance" to receive salvation after being left behind at the Rapture. However, those who are so hardened to the Gospel that they "refused to love the truth and so be saved" will be under a powerful delusion which will cause them to believe the Antichrist's lies (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11).

Again, the Tribulation will be a seven-year period of time during which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. Multitudes of people will receive salvation during the Tribulation, but they will be persecuted by the "Mystery Babylon" religious system during the there first half of the Tribulation. In addition, the Christians and the nation of Israel will be persecuted by the Antichrist during the second half of the Tribulation

Although I think it is pretty likely, I don't see that their is real scriptural proof that there will be a one world religion.

 

[veteran]

Thank you veteran.
Ok, I'm not sure where to begin tackling this but let's start off first with the "temple" where the "anti christ" will sit. Who says that this is a literal temple that is rebuilt and not the body of Christ?
Where does it say in the Bible that a physical temple will be rebuilt? I don't see this anywhere.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “ I will dwell in themAnd walk among them.I will be their God,And they shall be My people

The biblical definition of the "temple of God" is the body of believers in Jesus Christ.
So when reading 2 Thessalonians 2, at this point I have no reason to believe this is a physical temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Greek for "temple" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 means the sanctuary inside a temple; that's how the Greeks used the word 'naos'. This is why Strong's says compare no. 2411 'hieron' with it.

One must reconcile the warning Apostle Paul gave there in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about that false one to come with the warnings our Lord Jesus also gave about that false one, including the Daniel Scripture our Lord Jesus was pointing to about the one who places the abomination that maketh desolate. Our Lord also gave more about that abomination of desolation to come with the false one of Rev.13:11 forward who is to setup a false image of the beast for the whole world to worship.

Wrongly assigning the temple of 2 Thess.2:4 Paul was talking about to us, Christ's Body, throws away all those warnings by our Lord Jesus and Paul about a coming false messiah according to the working Daniel was given to describe, and of which Antiochus already served as a blueprint for. For Paul to mean that temple as us, Christ's Body, our Lord's warning about "abomination of desolation" would have to fit what Paul was saying also, and it clearly does not. Nor does that theory explain why our Lord also warned further about that "another beast" of Rev.13 setting up false worship with an idol image of the beast.

Moreover, the true temple of Christ's Body cannot be corrupted, because our Lord Jesus Himself is its Cornerstone, and His Apostles, prophets and ourselves make up its foundation. That is even revealed by the verses you quoted about it. Even that's how we know Paul was talking about a physical temple structure in Jerusalem in 2 Thess.2:4, because he was repeating the same type of warnings our Lord Jesus gave about it from the Book of Daniel concerning a false messiah coming to say he is Christ (Matt.24:15-26). In Matt.24 and Mark 13, our Lord Jesus was giving the events of the seven seals of Revelation 6. And Paul's warning was about the end of days of what MUST occur prior to Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

 

[veteran]

Moreover, we are required to study to show ourselves approved of God, becoming a workman in His Word to not be ashamed (per Paul in 2 Tim.2:15). If one studies the OT prophets, especially Daniel about the abomination of desolation events, a larger picture comes forth in the mind to better understand the events that are to occur in the end with a false messiah coming to Jerusalem.

There are major reasons why our Lord Jesus linked the Babylon term with the events of the end He gave us in Revelation. Ancient Babylon/Sumer was the birthplace of pagan idolatry.

In 1 Cor.10:11 Apostle Paul showed us the OT events of history serve as "ensamples" (examples) all the way to the end of this world. In Rev.13:11-15 the second beast is to set up an image of the beast for all to bow in worship to, and for those who refuse to bow to it to be killed. The OT ensample of that is what Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon did in Daniel's day. A golden idol image of Nebuchadnezzar was setup for all to bow down to at the sound of the psalter. Daniel and his fellows refused, and that's when their being delievered up for trial came. Up until that time, they were well taken care of. In our Lord's warnings of Mark 13, He mentioned that same kind of event of some being delivered up to give a testimony for Him, and it's linked with the 5th seal of Rev.6.

In Ezekiel 8, God shows Ezekiel by vision the abominations going on inside the temple with an "image of jealousy". Ezekiel was shown one of the sons of the scribe Shaphan leading the ancients of the house of Israel in that false worship (recall where the scribes came from per 1 Chron.2:55). God then showed Ezekiel how they were practicing several styles of pagan idol worship, even doing sun worship with their backs turned to God.

Then in Ezekiel 9, the vision continues about God's judgment as a result of what they were doing. But first God sends an angel with an inkhorn to mark the foreheads of all those in Jerusalem who sigh because of the abominations going on. And then the other angels are told to go slay all those not having God's mark in their forehead, both young and old, and to not spare. The word "mark" there is 'Tau', the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The ancient form of the letter Tau was a cross.

That vision given Ezekiel is a blueprint for the future abomination in Jerusalem, an image setup to the beast. It also reveals the joining of all false religions inside a temple for false worship. The "image of jealousy" is a direct prophetic link to the placing of the "abomination of desolation" inside the "holy place" our Lord Jesus warned of in Matt.24 and Mark 13. And the Ezekiel 9 "mark" (Tau-cross) is a direct link to God's sealing of His elect in Revelation.

So I think The LORD has been very good to us in revealing the events that are to happen in the end of days. It's just that He did not give all the related deeper descriptions for the end in just one Book of The Bible. He also did not give many 'direct' type statements like, "false messiah will come to play Me sitting inside a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem." He has no need to give such direct statements, because the many huge pictures He's drawn for us in His Word are already there, for those who listen to Him and not doctrines of men that follow the falseness of sons of the scribe Shaphan.

 

[archangel_300]

The Greek for "temple" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 means the sanctuary inside a temple; that's how the Greeks used the word 'naos'. This is why Strong's says compare no. 2411 'hieron' with it.

One must reconcile the warning Apostle Paul gave there in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about that false one to come with the warnings our Lord Jesus also gave about that false one, including the Daniel Scripture our Lord Jesus was pointing to about the one who places the abomination that maketh desolate. Our Lord also gave more about that abomination of desolation to come with the false one of Rev.13:11 forward who is to setup a false image of the beast for the whole world to worship.

Wrongly assigning the temple of 2 Thess.2:4 Paul was talking about to us, Christ's Body, throws away all those warnings by our Lord Jesus and Paul about a coming false messiah according to the working Daniel was given to describe, and of which Antiochus already served as a blueprint for. For Paul to mean that temple as us, Christ's Body, our Lord's warning about "abomination of desolation" would have to fit what Paul was saying also, and it clearly does not. Nor does that theory explain why our Lord also warned further about that "another beast" of Rev.13 setting up false worship with an idol image of the beast.

Moreover, the true temple of Christ's Body cannot be corrupted, because our Lord Jesus Himself is its Cornerstone, and His Apostles, prophets and ourselves make up its foundation. That is even revealed by the verses you quoted about it. Even that's how we know Paul was talking about a physical temple structure in Jerusalem in 2 Thess.2:4, because he was repeating the same type of warnings our Lord Jesus gave about it from the Book of Daniel concerning a false messiah coming to say he is Christ (Matt.24:15-26). In Matt.24 and Mark 13, our Lord Jesus was giving the events of the seven seals of Revelation 6. And Paul's warning was about the end of days of what MUST occur prior to Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

I do agree that Christ's true Body cannot be corrupted but let's face it not everyone that attends church is Christ's true body. Wherever there are the body of believers there will also be people who are unsaved as well.

False messiahs have come and false Christs already do exist are they not in the midst of the body of believers in Christ already?

Please prove using scripture that a temple is supposed to be rebuilt and it will be in Jerusalem.
Because this seems to be a inference into the scriptures. I can say that a temple will be rebuilt in America or for any other country for that matter and this is the place where the anti christ will sit.

So let's take a look at Revelation 13

Revelation 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those[e] who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

Horns typically represent power and seeing that they are like the lamb they have power like that of Christ because Christ is known as the "Lamb". This beast comes deceptively looking like and having the power of Christ. He speaks like a dragon meaning the doctrines that come out of the mouth of this beast is from Satan. NOTICE this beast PERFORMS SIGNS AND WONDERS and DECEIVES people BY THESE SIGNS.

Going to Matthew 24 and the other gospels there is coming a time when false prophets and false Christs will arise with SIGNS AND WONDERS. This is the BEAST.

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

I also have problems with the interpretation of 1260 days being part of the 7 year literal tribulation period. But i'll discuss this later.

 

[archangel_300]

Revelation 13:14 And he deceives those[e] who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

Revelation 13:15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16

To add on to what I was stating about this second beast. The first beast is an image of the second beast just like false Christs and false prophets that deceive are also a MIRROR IMAGE OF SATAN.

 

[faithtransforms]

Hi

The word "temple" in the NT , means --- Knowledge of God

The false Christ will act like the knowledge of God. The son of perdition, is the fallen angel, Lucifer.

Many will follow his pernicious ways - II Peter 2:1 - 3. by way of false prophets and false teachers.

Hi mysteryman, thank you.
Yes I agree that false prophets and teachers will lead astray many during the end times.

This temple is located everywhere the body of believers are present and its not restricted to one specific location in Jerusalem. It's where God dwells and the Old Testament "temple" was a shadow of what the true temple is. That God dwells among and in His people.

TEMPLE - STRONG'S CONCORDANCE:

"Naos"

Strong's Number: 3485
Original Word Word Origin
naovß from a primary naio (to dwell)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Naos 4:880,625
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
nah-os' Noun Masculine

Definition
used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
any heathen temple or shrine
metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ

King James Word Usage - Total: 46
temple 45, a shrine 1

Yes, we are the temple. But there will be a literal temple in which the anti christ, a literal man in-dwelt by satan will claim to be God. This over spiritualization of biblical prophecy is driving me crazy!!! :mad

 

[watchman F]

Yes, we are the temple. But there will be a literal temple in which the anti christ, a literal man in-dwelt by satan will claim to be God. This over spiritualization of biblical prophecy is driving me crazy!!! :mad

lol, I am with you ft

 

[faithtransforms]

Thank you veteran.
Ok, I'm not sure where to begin tackling this but let's start off first with the "temple" where the "anti christ" will sit. Who says that this is a literal temple that is rebuilt and not the body of Christ?
Where does it say in the Bible that a physical temple will be rebuilt? I don't see this anywhere.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “ I will dwell in themAnd walk among them.I will be their God,And they shall be My people

The biblical definition of the "temple of God" is the body of believers in Jesus Christ.
So when reading 2 Thessalonians 2, at this point I have no reason to believe this is a physical temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Ok, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to stand this thread much longer. Maybe I'm just hormonal today, but do you really think Paul was telling the Thessalonicans that satan will sit in the body of Christ? Yes, there will be deceivers, but I cannot see how anyone could take that scripture in Thessalonians as anything but literal.

Is it getting hot in here?

 

[veteran]

I do agree that Christ's true Body cannot be corrupted but let's face it not everyone that attends church is Christ's true body. Wherever there are the body of believers there will also be people who are unsaved as well.

False messiahs have come and false Christs already do exist are they not in the midst of the body of believers in Christ already?

In Matt.24, our Lord warned of many coming in His Name. That's the "many antichrists" idea. But in Matt.24:23 through 26, He was warning of a particular false messiah. The KJV term "false Christs" there is the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos', made up from two Greek words 'pseudo' (fake) and 'Christos' (Christ singular). The DIRECT translation is 'a pseudo Christ', singular. The context of Matt.24:23 and 26 is also singular. Our Lord Jesus gave that warning in relation to the "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem.

Please prove using scripture that a temple is supposed to be rebuilt and it will be in Jerusalem.
Because this seems to be a inference into the scriptures. I can say that a temple will be rebuilt in America or for any other country for that matter and this is the place where the anti christ will sit.

Look at Rev.11:1-2 again, closely. Look at Matt.24:26 about those who claim Christ is in the "secret chambers". That's in reference to those who will declare the pseudo Christ is inside... what? What was our Lord pointing out to His disciples while overlooking the existing Temple complex when He said that? And how does that relate also to the "abomination of desolation" standing in the "holy place"? Is that not enough to understand what He was warning concerning a false messiah inside the temple in Jerusalem setting up idol worship? Go study the Daniel 11 prophecy our Lord quoted from, about the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate; it's involving Jerusalem and not anywhere else on earth.

Also, Daniel 11 shows sacrifices going on in Jerusalem just prior to the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate. What is required for the Jews in Jerusalem to start up Old Covenant animal sacrifices again? A temple! Many of our Christian brethren either don't know about that requirement of a temple, but I guarantee the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem well know it (see their website, do a search on the term Temple Mount Faithful). They are petitioning help from Christian Churches to help in the rebuilding of another temple, and many Churches today are sending funds, some even heifers in prep for sacrifice. In 1997, a company in Tennessee called Jesus, Inc. was sending heifers to the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. So the Jews there have already been practicing apparently. The wife of a Christian friend of mine returned from a trip to Jerusalem years ago, and said the mollusks required for the purple dye of temple cloth had showed up, something that has not happenned in over 2,000 years.

So let's take a look at Revelation 13

Revelation 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those[e] who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

Horns typically represent power and seeing that they are like the lamb they have power like that of Christ because Christ is known as the "Lamb". This beast comes deceptively looking like and having the power of Christ. He speaks like a dragon meaning the doctrines that come out of the mouth of this beast is from Satan. NOTICE this beast PERFORMS SIGNS AND WONDERS and DECEIVES people BY THESE SIGNS.

Yes, horns are symbolic of powers, and the "another beast" is not plural there, for the Rev.13:11 verse is referring to one who speaks as the "dragon". That is the "little horn" and "vile person" of Daniel. It's the beast king our Lord showed in Rev.17. It's about a certain entity who is to come and take over power of the first beast kingdom, and work miracles to deceive. Our Lord and Apostle Paul both warned of one coming to work great signs and wonders, i.e., miracles. It is that one who speaks as a dragon but has two horns like Christ that sets up the "image" to the beast, the same type as what Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon did with the golden image. That's the same 'pseudo Christ' our Lord showed in Matt.24:23-26.

Going to Matthew 24 and the other gospels there is coming a time when false prophets and false Christs will arise with SIGNS AND WONDERS. This is the BEAST.

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

Not quite, for there are TWO SEPARATE BEASTS mentioned in Rev.13. The first beast is a kingdom beast that comes up out of the "sea", and involves peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues per Rev.17:15 about the "waters". But in Rev.13:11 forward, that is about "another beast" that comes up out of the "earth", and is a specific entity. It's that "another beast" that takes over power of the first beast kingdom. It's about a kingdom and a king, albeit both are pseudo or false.

ALSO, did you take time to note the "false Christs" phrase in the Greek? Our Lord's Name 'Christos' in the Greek is singular. Don't be confused by the 's' the KJV translators gave in the "false Christs" phrase, because the tense of Matt.24:23-26 is SINGULAR. Don't forget that last part of our Lord's warning in that...

Matt 24:25-26
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

That is SINGULAR TENSE, not plural. Those preaching our Lord was talking about many there is a lie from the enemy, trickled down to many Church leaders by various seminaries who are bent on trying to hide our Lord's warning of 'a pseudo Christ' coming to play Him. Whether you believe me is not important, for when you begin actually hearing many say Christ has come, He's there, or in the "secret chambers", you'll know about the false messiah for sure then.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

I also have problems with the interpretation of 1260 days being part of the 7 year literal tribulation period. But i'll discuss this later.

II Th 2:3-9
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

All the above underlined words are in the SINGULAR TENSE also. Per 1 John 3:8 the devil sinned from the beginnng. In Isaiah 14 God called Lucifer "a man", because God also created him with the outward likeness of man, as also the angels. This working of wanting to sit in the sides of the north, which is God's Place, and be worshipped as God, was what the very first sin was about, and was done by the devil at his original rebellion (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28-31). Apostle Paul is actually referring here to that very type of act by Satan. That's what the "man of sin" is about, and is a special pointer to what Satan did of old when he first rebelled against God. Ezekiel 31 is a special parable about it.

The "son of perdition" phrase is another pointer to the devil, because the word 'perdition' is from the Greek word 'apollumi', which is where Satan's title of "Apollyon" in Rev.9 comes from. It is because ONLY the devil and his angels have ALREADY been judged and sentenced to perdition in the "lake of fire". It's link to Judas is because of what he did in following the devil, and our Lord Jesus called Judas "a devil" in John 6:70. Yet even Judas has not been judged yet, and he was already dead when Paul gave this prophecy.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul was having to remind those what he had already told them about this matter, because there were false ones among them confusing the time of Christ's coming and our gathering by passing letters claimed to be from the Apostles (see 2 Thess.2:2 "nor by letter as from us").

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

That "he" of verse 6 about the son of perdition and man of sin is singular, not plural. Paul's talking about a specific entity here, just as our Lord Jesus was also.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,(KJV)

Note the KJV translators capitalized "Wicked" in that to show a proper name. When that happens it's showing a singular entity. That Wicked's working is according to ("after") the working of Satan. All this is pointing to the same false messiah our Lord Jesus warned of in Matt.24 and Mark 13. It's the same one that is the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward. It's the "vile person" and "little horn" of Daniel. It's the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit per Rev.11. It's the beast king that is to be over the ten kings of Rev.17.

So if someone told you to figure out for yourself what the subject is while telling you it has four wheels, an engine, a steering wheel, front seats and back seats, a hood and a trunk, safety belts, air bags, bumpers and headlights, they certainly don't have to tell you it's a car. That's exactly what our Lord has done in His Word on this matter. He has given us ALL the clues to put it all together while not actually telling us directly. He shouldn't need to tell us directly, He's already revealed all things, IF we would only listen to Him.

 

[archangel_300]

Hi

The word "temple" in the NT , means --- Knowledge of God

The false Christ will act like the knowledge of God. The son of perdition, is the fallen angel, Lucifer.

Many will follow his pernicious ways - II Peter 2:1 - 3. by way of false prophets and false teachers.

Hi mysteryman, thank you.
Yes I agree that false prophets and teachers will lead astray many during the end times.

This temple is located everywhere the body of believers are present and its not restricted to one specific location in Jerusalem. It's where God dwells and the Old Testament "temple" was a shadow of what the true temple is. That God dwells among and in His people.

TEMPLE - STRONG'S CONCORDANCE:

"Naos"

Strong's Number: 3485
Original Word Word Origin
naovß from a primary naio (to dwell)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Naos 4:880,625
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
nah-os' Noun Masculine

Definition
used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
any heathen temple or shrine
metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ

King James Word Usage - Total: 46
temple 45, a shrine 1

Yes, we are the temple. But there will be a literal temple in which the anti christ, a literal man in-dwelt by satan will claim to be God. This over spiritualization of biblical prophecy is driving me crazy!!! :mad

It's not spiritualizing. We are the body of Christ and this is referring to the church. The church is to God today what the Old Testament temple was to God back then. God no longer dwells in any physical temple he now dwells in us through the Holy Spirit. We are now the temple that carries the light of the gospel to the world. Wherever the body of Christ is gathered together to worship, there is the temple.

I only listen to the word of God, again please support your conclusion with scripture.
Where does it say a temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem? I can't find it in scripture and if it cannot be found God has not stated this. What I need is more validation than 2 Thessalonians 2.
People come to the conclusion that since the temple was destroyed in Jerusalem, 2 Thessalonians 2 means it must be rebuilt and where else could it be but Jerusalem? That's not enough proof for me.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Yes, we are the temple. But there will be a literal temple in which the anti christ, a literal man in-dwelt by satan will claim to be God. This over spiritualization of biblical prophecy is driving me crazy!!! :mad

What makes me crazy is people saying the antichrist claims to be God.The king of the north doesnt claim to be God,He shows himself that he is God.Two completly different acts.
If you wanted to show yourself that you are God then you would do the works of God.
You would put your mark in man.
You would deliver Israel from her enemies.

You would want to be like the most High.

 

[faithtransforms]

Yes, we are the temple. But there will be a literal temple in which the anti christ, a literal man in-dwelt by satan will claim to be God. This over spiritualization of biblical prophecy is driving me crazy!!! :mad

What makes me crazy is people saying the antichrist claims to be God.The king of the north doesnt claim to be God,He shows himself that he is God.Two completly different acts.
If you wanted to show yourself that you are God then you would do the works of God.
You would put your mark in man.
You would deliver Israel from her enemies.

You would want to be like the most High.

Wow, if that's not splitting hairs I don't know what is.