Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[jasoncran]

umm. glorydayz, the devil can posses people, i have met one person who was possesed. the H.S. told me that she had three spirits within her, and sure enough she claimed to live in three differents lifetimes.

 

[Mysteryman]

Arch, don't amillennialists believe that the book of Revelation has already been fulfulled? And that Christ is currently reigning on the throne of David (where I don't know but anyway)? So how can you say the church will go through the trib if you are amillennial?

Can I answer? In amillenialism, I believe there is tribulation, but there isn't a literal 1000 year reign. Revelation 20 is figurative in it's 1000 year term. The tribulation has been occurring since the time of Christ. Satan has been bound to a certain extent since that time. He has influence over the world, but not uninhibited authority. There will be signs of Christ's return has Jesus explained, but there won't be an "invisible" returning of Christ. He will return 1 final time when the rapture will occur and believers will be caught up with Him.

Don't confuse it with post-millenialism. We don't want to be associated with "those" people. :rolling

kidding!

May I just point out, that there is the tribulation of this world, and then there is the tribulation of God. Both are tribulations, but one is of this world and the other is of God. So two totally differenty types of tribulation. The tribulation from God is the wrath of God. And since we are not appointed to God's wrath, then we will not be here to go through it. This is why the Word tells us to comfort one another with these words.

 

[archangel_300]

Oh, ok. Well, when the bible says Christ will reign for 1000 years on the throne of David from Jerusalem, I think its a mistake to take that metaphorically. Where do you get the idea that it is figurative? Is there some scripture you can point to that supports that? I think it is a mistake to interpret ANYTHING in the bible metaphorically if it is even remotely possible that it could really happen. You think satan has been bound? :rolling Have you taken a look around this world? Paul calls him the god of this world for a reason. And does that also mean you do not believe New Jerusalem will descend from the Heavens and that God will make His abode with us on earth?

You don't think Satan has been bound? Just wait until he's released and you may see that he has been.

The strong man is satan...unless he was bound the Gospel could not go out.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Much of what is ascribed to satan is sinful man and the lusts of their flesh. Satan could freely possess people...him and all his demons, before the cross. He can't do that today. Christ defeated satan at the cross...he has bound satan with certain parameters set forth so the Gospel could be spread abroad through the whole earth. During this church age, satan can not freely enter into man and the church need only resist and he must flee. When he is released during the end of the age, he will perform many miracles and signs....then we will see him "loosed".

And Jesus does sit on David's throne...but that's the topic for another thread. :halo

EXACTLY... :yes

The angel in Revelation 20 I believe is Christ who bound Satan at the cross.
Satan's power has become severely limited after the cross became a reality. But once Satan is loosed from his chains then this becomes the beast that will destroy the church with all sorts of deception.

If you read the rest of scripture the Christ returns on the "last day" or aka "Day of the Lord".
From reading Matthew 24 Christ warns us that the next time we will see him will be when he comes to earth as lightning is from the east to the west. And in fact Christ warns us that if anyone comes claiming they are the Christ before then, we are not to follow them or believe them. So the next time we will see Christ is on the last day when judgment day arrives and he comes in his full glory. There can't be a time when Christ returns to set up a future earthly millenial kingdom and then returns a second time for judgment.

The 1000 reign of Christ must be referring to a time period before the great white throne judgment mentioned in Revelation 20 and that time period is happening now in the church age.

 

[faithtransforms]

I'm sorry, I mean no offence at all. But that's just plain crazy. Honestly, I know you're a good Christian, but where are these assertions coming from? I will have to pull up Rev 20. But again I think its a big mistake to spiritualize scripture unless it is obvioulsly 100% completely metaphorical. Like the Beast that Daniel saw, that's clearly a metaphor. But Christ reigning for 1000 years? Don't see any reason to interpret that figuratively at all.

No offence taken. That's why I'm careful to say that I'm not certain, I could be very wrong.
I'll have to summarize...

One of the key things we know of about the 1000 year reign is that Satan was bound.
I believe this occurred at the cross when Christ was raised from the dead. He was bound as now the gospel goes out in "full force" so to speak and the harvest begins. There is nothing that Satan can do about this and Satan has been given a "death blow" as now God's salvation plan is locked in stone.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Who are those that lived verses those that did not live? One can only conclude that those that lived were believers and the ones that didn't were non believers who will be raised from the dead when Christ returns (1000 years finished). Those that take part in the first resurrection the "second death" has no power. The second death is eternal damnation. And really that's what happens when we come into God's kingdom when we become saved, the second death has no power over us and we become priests of God in Christ.

Revelation 1:5 To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We do know that after the 1000 years have expired Satan will be loosed to "DECEIVE" the world. And I believe this is going to mark the start of the great tribulation period. Again in Matthew 24 the signs Christ will return is that there will be a strong spiritual deception throughout the entire world. The apostles ask "what is the sign you will return" and the first thing Christ says "BE NOT DECEIVED". False Christs and prophets will arise to deceive.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I strongly believe the Great Tribulation period will be the most horrible time in the world... because it will be the time hardly anyone on the face of the earth will be saved and coming into God's kingdom.
Satan will be allowed to decieve people in all sorts of manners that the light of the gospel will no longer be found.

So that's a very very quick summary of why I believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is the New Testament period.

Ok, well I certainly respect your position, I don't understand it, I'll be honest. I mean it sounds somewhat viable the way you explain it, except one has to interpret scripture metaphorically in so many places where there appears to be no reason to do so. I take God Word as literally as possible in every case, except, as I said, in cases where there is no other viable interpretation, such as the beast that Daniel saw, which is clearly metaphorical.

Do you and mjjcb belong to a denomination? I am not asking so I can judge, I'm just curious if there are churches where amillennialism is their official position or if its something that some non-denominational churches have embraced or if its more an individual choice. I think the episcopals are either amillennial or post-millennial, I'm not sure.

 

[faithtransforms]

Oh, ok. Well, when the bible says Christ will reign for 1000 years on the throne of David from Jerusalem, I think its a mistake to take that metaphorically. Where do you get the idea that it is figurative? Is there some scripture you can point to that supports that? I think it is a mistake to interpret ANYTHING in the bible metaphorically if it is even remotely possible that it could really happen. You think satan has been bound? :rolling Have you taken a look around this world? Paul calls him the god of this world for a reason. And does that also mean you do not believe New Jerusalem will descend from the Heavens and that God will make His abode with us on earth?

You don't think Satan has been bound? Just wait until he's released and you may see that he has been.

The strong man is satan...unless he was bound the Gospel could not go out.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Much of what is ascribed to satan is sinful man and the lusts of their flesh. Satan could freely possess people...him and all his demons, before the cross. He can't do that today. Christ defeated satan at the cross...he has bound satan with certain parameters set forth so the Gospel could be spread abroad through the whole earth. During this church age, satan can not freely enter into man and the church need only resist and he must flee. When he is released during the end of the age, he will perform many miracles and signs....then we will see him "loosed".

And Jesus does sit on David's throne...but that's the topic for another thread. :halo

Glorydaz, satan and his demons will be cast out of HEAVEN to the earth and start wreaking the serious havoc b/c they know the time is short. He's thrown out of heaven, not loosed from the pit. And yes, satan most certainly CAN possess people, I have seen it.

 

[faithtransforms]

The angel in Revelation 20 I believe is Christ who bound Satan at the cross.

See, this is a perfect example, why would the bible refer to Jesus as an angel? If it was Jesus, it would just say Jesus. I just re-read Rev 20-21, and I can't see where it is saying anything except exactly what it says!

Were you taught this position by a denomination, did you study all the positions? I just cannot see upon what basis this line of thought even originated. For what reason did anyone decide to investigate whether the bible literally means what it says?

 

[paulr1025]

For what reason did anyone decide to investigate whether the bible literally means what it says?

Personally, my reason for feeding off the context of the Word of God through understanding the original language and Spirit of the Word of God was to avoid misunderstanding and to be cleansed from all the "fodder" that man had successfully shoved down my throat for over 30 years.
English is a very young and very liberal language, whereas Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic/Syriac are very specific and when one takes the time to look into the grammatical as well as contextual liberties taken by English translators, it is obvious where they are.
THIS WAS NOT GOD'S DESIGN!

That said; i agree with the biblical view, as it is grammatically, as well as theologically the most sound regarding the "rapture" or 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus and everything else.
When Noah's family was "kept" through the storm, was the ark God had Noah build pulled out of the storm, or did He guide Noah from the building of the ark, to filling the ark, in the face of rejection and ridicule. Side Note: As it was in the days of Noah so it shall be at the coming of the Son of Man.
HOW MANY WERE SAVED THEN?
The angels that went to Lot's house; Did they whisk Lot and his family out of sodom and OFF THE PLANET, or did they warn Lot and his family of the coming destruction?
GOD ALWAYS GIVES A CHOICE!
He says; (Choice) Take My yoke (balance of Grace and Truth) upon you and learn from Me.
For I am gentle and humble in My thoughts and feelings, and you will find "rest" for your souls.
Choose this day who you will serve?
Take each thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
If baal be god, follow him, but if YHVH be God, (deny yourself, take up your cross daily and) follow Him.

There is NO biblical foundation for teaching or believing, in a pre-tribulation rapture, simply because; Ecc 1:9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.

If it hasn't taken place in the Word of God yet, IT'S NOT GOING TO and all the hoping, dreaming, wishing and teaching that it will is only going to cause harm and a false sense of hope, just like "the sinner's prayer" is all one needs to do to be "saved".
Jesus said; IF you ABIDE in Me and My Word ABIDES in you, then you are truly My disciples.
Don't be deceived, whatever a man sows, he will also reap and it is because of heretical watered down, "feel good" teaching that Christianity is on a decline in western civilization as the "family" is being destroyed by their own greed and selfishness, yet Christianity grows exponentially in war torn poverty stricken areas of the globe that have NOTHING and desire NOTHING but Christ.
Give God this vapor, dedicate each breath to Him and be willing to admit to Him and other human beings each time you don't and He will reward you with eternal life.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!

Two final thoughts:
1. Jesus left so many clues in everything He said.
I.E. He who sins is a slave to sin, but a slave does NOT abide in the house forever. A son abides forever.
DOES HE DELINEATE BETWEEN SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE AND SONS OF GOD?
NO!
Jesus again says; Jhn 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

2. Jesus says; "You will "know" the truth and the truth will set you free."
If it doesn't set you free, it's NOT truth to you.. I.E. You don't believe it!
THAT IS THE CONDEMNATION!

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they CHOSE not TO AGAPE THE TRUTH, that they might be saved [sodezo] (YESHUA).
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who trusted not by their obedience and humility the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness SELF.


Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[paulr1025]

For what reason did anyone decide to investigate whether the bible literally means what it says?

Faith, what do the following passages mean to you?

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

The entirety of the Word of God says the same thing, so why is it (though under the guise of humor) said from the pulpit; that the wife is the boss?

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS LAUGHING AS HIS DESIGN FOR MEN WOMEN AND FAMILIES IS SYSTEMATICALLY BEING DESTROYED FOR THE SAKE OF NOT HURTING FEELINGS OR BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT?

A reminder: The serpent didn't seem out of place in the garden!
Agape,

paul

Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[faithtransforms]

Paul,

Those verses mean exactly what they say they mean. A woman is too submit to her husband, however; the husband's commitment to the wife is even greater, he must lay his life down for her, even as Christ did for the church. Ideally, a woman is a counsellor to her husband and they make decisions together, but if agreement cannot be reached, the woman should submit to her husband, even if the husband is wrong (unless he wants her to do something unbiblical of course, that would be different). And yes, a woman should be at least as beautiful on the inside than she attempts to be on the outside.

I couldn't agree more. The structure of the family has been almost completely destroyed because of the lack of these truths in practice. Women's lib is largely to blame in many ways. Hey, I'm a woman and I'm all for equal work/equal pay, but women's lib doesn't celebrate women (femininity and all that should be prized about it), it teaches women that they should be like men.

And no, God doesn't like it.

I'm not sure how this applies to the topic, but did I answer your question?

 

[paulr1025]

You say "give himself for her as Christ did the church"...
Let's look at how Jesus gave Himself for the church.
He spoke the truth in spite of being rejected, as He was more concerned with washing her than how she felt about being washed.
Did Jesus agape Peter when He said to his face; "get behind me satan"?
Did Jesus agape the money changers when He whipped them out of the temple?
Did Jesus agape the woman at the well when He called her on her past?
The answer to all of the above questions is YES!

Here's the deal, Paul said "No one hates their own body, but cherishes and nurtures it."
If i love my body am i going to give it nothing but sweets and let it hang out on the couch all day as it gets sick and ultimately because of poor health dies?
Am i going to shower and brush my teeth?

Letting the wife have her way is not sacrificing as Jesus did, affectionately leading her on the path leading to eternal life is what Jesus did.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith; Who for the JOY set before Him (obeyed) endured the cross, DESPISING THE SHAME, and is now seated at the right hand of God.

Men today don't obey God in their marriages and sadly are instructed NOT to by "well meaning" pastors.
As Peter was well meaning when he rebuked Jesus upon saying the Son of Man must suffer and die.
We know how well that worked out.

Here's what i don't get.
Gen 3:16 is ONE passage to women and it is comprehensive.
So why is it women are so wiling to receive the first and second part of the curse, but in today's churches teaching, the 3rd part has somehow been removed, or God has changed His mind.
IN BOTH CASES THIS IS HERESY!
And it is preached in the most respected of denominations, but NEVER with scriptural substance!

i ask you specifically faith, because from what i've read in your posts you truly want to please God, and that is NOT you, but Christ in you, as your flesh along with mine and everyone elses is at enmity with God.
So, it would seem that Christ is increasing and you (faith) are increasing.

Tell me, if this is "off-topic" where do you believe the best place to move this conversation would be?

Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[Mysteryman]

Paul

What does this have to do with Pre-Trib ?

 

[faithtransforms]

You say "give himself for her as Christ did the church"...
Let's look at how Jesus gave Himself for the church.
He spoke the truth in spite of being rejected, as He was more concerned with washing her than how she felt about being washed.
Did Jesus agape Peter when He said to his face; "get behind me satan"?
Did Jesus agape the money changers when He whipped them out of the temple?
Did Jesus agape the woman at the well when He called her on her past?
The answer to all of the above questions is YES!

Here's the deal, Paul said "No one hates their own body, but cherishes and nurtures it."
If i love my body am i going to give it nothing but sweets and let it hang out on the couch all day as it gets sick and ultimately because of poor health dies?
Am i going to shower and brush my teeth?

Letting the wife have her way is not sacrificing as Jesus did, affectionately leading her on the path leading to eternal life is what Jesus did.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith; Who for the JOY set before Him (obeyed) endured the cross, DESPISING THE SHAME, and is now seated at the right hand of God.

Men today don't obey God in their marriages and sadly are instructed NOT to by "well meaning" pastors.
As Peter was well meaning when he rebuked Jesus upon saying the Son of Man must suffer and die.
We know how well that worked out.

Here's what i don't get.
Gen 3:16 is ONE passage to women and it is comprehensive.
So why is it women are so wiling to receive the first and second part of the curse, but in today's churches teaching, the 3rd part has somehow been removed, or God has changed His mind.
IN BOTH CASES THIS IS HERESY!
And it is preached in the most respected of denominations, but NEVER with scriptural substance!

i ask you specifically faith, because from what i've read in your posts you truly want to please God, and that is NOT you, but Christ in you, as your flesh along with mine and everyone elses is at enmity with God.
So, it would seem that Christ is increasing and you (faith) are increasing.

Tell me, if this is "off-topic" where do you believe the best place to move this conversation would be?

Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

I did not imply that man laying down his life for his wife means letting her have her own way. It may sometimes mean that he submits to her in some way, but not if she is demanding her own way, because that would be her usurping authority. But it is ok for him to submit to her in some ways if he is led by the Holy Spirit to do so. A man should be the spiritual head of the house, a leader, not a dictator.

 

[faithtransforms]

Oh, and a good place to talk about it would be just to start a new topic about the roles of men and women.

 

[archangel_300]

Ok, well I certainly respect your position, I don't understand it, I'll be honest. I mean it sounds somewhat viable the way you explain it, except one has to interpret scripture metaphorically in so many places where there appears to be no reason to do so. I take God Word as literally as possible in every case, except, as I said, in cases where there is no other viable interpretation, such as the beast that Daniel saw, which is clearly metaphorical.

Do you and mjjcb belong to a denomination? I am not asking so I can judge, I'm just curious if there are churches where amillennialism is their official position or if its something that some non-denominational churches have embraced or if its more an individual choice. I think the episcopals are either amillennial or post-millennial, I'm not sure.

I belong to a non-denominational church. They don't teach what I write on the forums.
What I write is all coming from my own personal study of the Word of God. I do listen to teachers of the Word and if I believe what they say is accurate and sound then I'll accept what they say as truth.

But with that being said if I were to be categorized into one denomination it would probably be Reformed. I do believe their doctrines are Biblically accurate as they do believe in election/predestination and I think they have Christ's atonement correctly laid out. I'm not sure what their official stance is on eschatology though...

I'm just a student of the Word and come to my own conclusions based upon what I think is Biblically accurate. I'm just try to seek the truth and I pray that if I'm wrong Lord please correct me immediately.

 

[archangel_300]

The angel in Revelation 20 I believe is Christ who bound Satan at the cross.

See, this is a perfect example, why would the bible refer to Jesus as an angel? If it was Jesus, it would just say Jesus. I just re-read Rev 20-21, and I can't see where it is saying anything except exactly what it says!

Were you taught this position by a denomination, did you study all the positions? I just cannot see upon what basis this line of thought even originated. For what reason did anyone decide to investigate whether the bible literally means what it says?

The word angel means "messenger", it may or may not be a reference to a created spirit being.
There was a recent post where someone stated that the archangel michael is actually Christ and stated the biblical reasons why. I'm still not sure about that but it would make sense because Christ really is the chief messenger.

And you are right it could be a wrong interpretation. Perhaps this is really referring to an actual spirit being.

No I wasn't taught this by any denomination but the angel being Christ would make sense seeing that the strong man bound was Satan and this occurred at the cross. No I wasn't taught this by any teacher.
I think there might have been another reason why I thought this had to be Christ as well... but I need to do more thinking because I can't really remember. Usually I'm pretty careful but there can be occasional slips.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz, satan and his demons will be cast out of HEAVEN to the earth and start wreaking the serious havoc b/c they know the time is short. He's thrown out of heaven, not loosed from the pit. And yes, satan most certainly CAN possess people, I have seen it.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but it is an opinion, nonetheless. We do know from Mt. 12:29 that Jesus bound the strong man so the Gospel could go forth. We also know that Jesus saw satan cast down to the earth as "lightening".

We see from Scripture that satan no longer holds the power of death that kept us all in bondage.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The "short time" that satan is released will be during the time the antichrist comes to the fore.
We see here the power satan will have when he's "loosed".

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

This casting down seems to be speaking of salvation, and strength, and the power of Christ. Not the same time as when satan is loosed to aid the antichrist.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

As far as what you've seen, I don't put much credence in the ability of man to discern possession from simply being oppressed by demons. Satan is given more power than he deserves. He can oppress his own children who are the unsaved, but his power has been curtailed so the Gospel is free to go forth through the whole earth.

 

[glorydaz]

The angel in Revelation 20 I believe is Christ who bound Satan at the cross.

See, this is a perfect example, why would the bible refer to Jesus as an angel? If it was Jesus, it would just say Jesus. I just re-read Rev 20-21, and I can't see where it is saying anything except exactly what it says!

Were you taught this position by a denomination, did you study all the positions? I just cannot see upon what basis this line of thought even originated. For what reason did anyone decide to investigate whether the bible literally means what it says?

Just so you know...the amillenial view has been around from the time of the early church. I don't think anyone knows for sure if Jesus is the angel ("messenger") referred to here or if it's Michael the Archangel or just any angel. There is certainly evidence that it could be referring to Jesus since Jesus is the only one found worthy and holds all the keys.

Who else has the power to call forth the dead? Here is says the Lord himself...with a shout, with the voice of the archangel.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The same Hebrew word is used for angel and messenger, and we see here that Jesus is the messenger of the new covenant.

"]Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

 

[watchman F]

See, this is a perfect example, why would the bible refer to Jesus as an angel? If it was Jesus, it would just say Jesus. I just re-read Rev 20-21, and I can't see where it is saying anything except exactly what it says!

Good for you!!!!!

 

[MMarc]

Good point sis'

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Jesus also said it would like the Day of Noah, Noah also means rest.

Noah prepared, and like the days of Lot, people got out of the city, so try to prepare 3 months of non perishable food and water, and if trib hits, stay out of big cities, it's gonna be ugly if major cities are hit by black outs.

 

[archangel_300]

See, this is a perfect example, why would the bible refer to Jesus as an angel? If it was Jesus, it would just say Jesus. I just re-read Rev 20-21, and I can't see where it is saying anything except exactly what it says!

Good for you!!!!!

As glory stated in his above post. No one can be certain whether or not that angel is Christ or a spirit being. Although it would seem to suggest that it is Christ binding Satan there is no real evidence for this. But in any case this doesn't disprove ammillenialism.