Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[glorydaz]

Right, exactly. There's just absolutely no reason to interpret 1000 years as anything but 1000 years! I think a lot of this started with augustine. although i know of some of earlier church believed it. however, alot of them denied the book of revelation as scripture.

There are many reasons not to...here are just a few of the many...

Thousand is used all throughout the Bible as a number of completeness.

For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(The LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!)

 

[Mysteryman]

Its going to be interesting to see all those face expressions, when those people find out that their theory was wrong.

Me and mine are leaving at the gathering up of the saints. The reason it is called > "Pre-trib" is because the tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And in my poor English-- I ain't going to be here when it happens.

And for those who believe that they will go through the tribulation. Enjoy the fire works . But there is just one problem. Those ain't fire works, they are stars falling from the sky. :yes

 

[watchman F]

Its going to be interesting to see all those face expressions, when those people find out that their theory was wrong.

Me and mine are leaving at the gathering up of the saints. The reason it is called > "Pre-trib" is because the tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And in my poor English-- I ain't going to be here when it happens.

And for those who believe that they will go through the tribulation. Enjoy the fire works . But there is just one problem. Those ain't fire works, they are stars falling from the sky. :yes

Mm, my heart breaks for you.

 

[Mysteryman]

Its going to be interesting to see all those face expressions, when those people find out that their theory was wrong.

Me and mine are leaving at the gathering up of the saints. The reason it is called > "Pre-trib" is because the tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And in my poor English-- I ain't going to be here when it happens.

And for those who believe that they will go through the tribulation. Enjoy the fire works . But there is just one problem. Those ain't fire works, they are stars falling from the sky. :yes

Mm, my heart breaks for you.

Let me put your heart at ease. I will be under the altar of the Lord .

 

[archangel_300]

Its going to be interesting to see all those face expressions, when those people find out that their theory was wrong.

Me and mine are leaving at the gathering up of the saints. The reason it is called > "Pre-trib" is because the tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And in my poor English-- I ain't going to be here when it happens.

And for those who believe that they will go through the tribulation. Enjoy the fire works . But there is just one problem. Those ain't fire works, they are stars falling from the sky. :yes

Don't worry about it mysteryman. If you are correct then we'll all be leaving with you.
Our salvation is not dependent upon our eschatology being correct.
We all believe that Jesus will return for us and that's all that matters in the end.

 

[Mysteryman]

Its going to be interesting to see all those face expressions, when those people find out that their theory was wrong.

Me and mine are leaving at the gathering up of the saints. The reason it is called > "Pre-trib" is because the tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And in my poor English-- I ain't going to be here when it happens.

And for those who believe that they will go through the tribulation. Enjoy the fire works . But there is just one problem. Those ain't fire works, they are stars falling from the sky. :yes

Don't worry about it mysteryman. If you are correct then we'll all be leaving with you.
Our salvation is not dependent upon our eschatology being correct.
We all believe that Jesus will return for us and that's all that matters in the end.

Hi

No, I am not concerned in the least about those whom God has called and chosen will be a part of the gathering up of the saints, before the tribulation of God.

However, there are those who do not believe in the comfort of God, and proclaim that we will go through the tribulation of God.

I am quoting scripture that explains that we are to comfort one another with these words. Others do the opposite, which is not of/from God.

Bless

 

[Mike]

Its going to be interesting to see all those face expressions, when those people find out that their theory was wrong.

Me and mine are leaving at the gathering up of the saints. The reason it is called > "Pre-trib" is because the tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And in my poor English-- I ain't going to be here when it happens.

And for those who believe that they will go through the tribulation. Enjoy the fire works . But there is just one problem. Those ain't fire works, they are stars falling from the sky. :yes

Don't worry about it mysteryman. If you are correct then we'll all be leaving with you.
Our salvation is not dependent upon our eschatology being correct.
We all believe that Jesus will return for us and that's all that matters in the end.

Hi

No, I am not concerned in the least about those whom God has called and chosen will be a part of the gathering up of the saints, before the tribulation of God.

However, there are those who do not believe in the comfort of God, and proclaim that we will go through the tribulation of God.

I am quoting scripture that explains that we are to comfort one another with these words. Others do the opposite, which is not of/from God.

Bless

I agree with both of you. I "feel sorry" for those that promote negative separation of believers as opposed to accepting differences that don't change the final prize. Having animosity within the family is very sad indeed.

 

[faithtransforms]

Not really.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years

When does the second death have no power over an individual? Is it during the millenial reign? Or is it after someone becomes saved?

When are we made priests of God and of Christ?

Revelation 1:4 To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Sounds like that's already happened, doesn't it?

We see in revelation 20 that judgement day occurs AFTER the 1000 reign of Christ.
Well if that's the case and Matthew 24 states if anyone says to you "I'm the Christ" don't believe them.
And Christ also states that the next time we will see him is when he returns in his full glory to judge mankind, how is it possible that Christ will come down to earth to establish a millenial reign on this earth FIRST?

Sounds like the millenial reign is already happening.

The tribulation saints reign with Him 1000 years. It is after 1000 that the bema seat and white throne judgments occur. The second death has no power over a saved person. But that proves nothing about the millenium being now. He will come down and judge mankind, but He will reign 1000 years first. I think that is just semantics there and Rev 20 clears it up.

 

[faithtransforms]

I'm curious if anyone can honestly say they have been a firm believer in pre-trib, post-trib or amillennialism and became convinced of one of the others. I don't believe the Christian faith hinges on it, but some people are highly defensive of it to the point of excess. Revelation 20 has been studied thoroughly by amillennialists and post-tribbers and both come away convinced it speaks to their interpretation.

Faith makes statements like "how anyone can believe...is beyond comprehension", and I believe such statements are divisive to an unnecessary degree. I'm not picking on you for that, Faith. I'm sure I used similar language when we discussed your acceptance of Prosperity Preaching.

The point here is that amillennialists have likely been indoctrinated in their Christianity as have post-M's and pre-M's. Personally, I had grown into my adulthood before I ever really learned about Post and Pre. Having lived that long with my beliefs, these seemed very odd when I did learn about them. I would guess this is true of someone who has only known, or was introduced to Christianity, with Pre & Post theology.

When someone is entrenched in their beliefs, no one is going to state Rev 20 in any way that will convince them otherwise. I understand how millennialists have a hard time understanding why amillennialists take 1000 years figuratively. I would make arguments that have been made 1000 times that a figurative 1000 year term is in keeping with the symbolic nature of Revelation just as a beast bound by "chains" is figurative.

If Revelation was so clear, there wouldn't be this separation by now, because Lord knows we've had scholars studying it for a long time. I don't think anyone who is resolved of 1 of the 3 beliefs is going to be convinced otherwise, and we should accept brothers and sisters who have opposing views here without labeling them a heretic or lunatic.

If anyone can honestly say that they changed their view when they had thoughtfully and prayerfully spent a long time convinced of one approach, I would be very interested to hear about their shift.

I was fed and ate the pre-trib scenario for years. Then the more times I read the NT, I realized it just didn't add up, after study, I became convinced that the saints would go through the trib, Espicially from the scripture in the OP. Who can explain that away?

 

[faithtransforms]

I think I have a totally different view of the great tribulation than most.
I honestly think it is a great spiritual tribulation and a time period hardly anyone is become saved because the light of the gospel is no longer found.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Someone STOP ME if I'm wrong here but from reading these verses it seems like what God is saying is that if the Lord extended the tribulation days so that IF the world lasted longer than it should there would be no single individual person on the face of the entire planet that would be coming to salvation in Jesus Christ. Seeing that these verses are also in the CONTEXT of false prophets and false Christ's arising I am not surprised.

I think the great tribulation will mark the time God rests from his creation, the gospel has finished its purpose and the kingdom of God is complete (or nearly complete).

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 18:8
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?â€

Wow arch, oh boy. no flesh would be ALIVE if he didn't shorten the tribulation! I believe that's what this verse is referring to. Do you even accept the book of Rev at all? Do you think all those judgments are symbolic?!?!?

 

[faithtransforms]

Gotta agree with frying pan- all other views are in the fire imo
We have been redeemed from the wrath that is to come when God's justice is revealed in the tribulation as the merciful restrainer of this world[ the Holy spirit ] is withdrawn in the rapture with his Saints
Its a given in my book :D

I am staunchly Millenial and pre-trib.

Romans 5:9--> Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

...
In conclusion the pre-trib view fits in best with the future hope that the Bible presents. In 1 Thess 1:10 we are told to wait for God's son from heaven, not for the Great Tribulation or Antichrist. I believe in the imminence of Jesus' return as that kind of mentality is contained throughout the New Testament.

Now how do you think that all the trib saints are going to get saved if the Holy Spirit leaves the earth. The answer is, they can't! If you read the verses on the original post, tell me how you explain those away?

 

[faithtransforms]

If anyone can honestly say that they changed their view when they had thoughtfully and prayerfully spent a long time convinced of one approach, I would be very interested to hear about their shift.

I agree with your entire post, but I'd like to address this point. Back when I was saved, I'd read Late Great Planet Earth. I very quickly put it down and focused on the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, but kept the pre-trib rapture in my thinking as what happens at the end. Then I began posting on a prophecy board, and realized I couldn't agree with much of what was being said. What really caused me to look into it more deeply was this thousand year kingdom tacked on after our Lord returns. I saw people claiming Jesus had to wait to rule and reign. When I'd put forth the scripture that says, not only that He rules and reigns now, but He "must" reign UNTIL all has been put under His feet. Those who claim He is to reign with a "rod of iron", that people will only live to be 100, and that Satan is later loosed to deceive, I have to reject it as unscriptural.

From there I studied Rev. and found it is not written chronologically...John presents events and then the Day of the Lord...more events and the day of the Lord. He does that six different times. He also alludes to the past...what was, what is, and what will be. I see the church going through the tribulation...there is a difference between tribulation and God's wrath. We are kept through...not taken from tribulation, but are spared the wrath. The days will be cut short for the elect's sake, then we will be taken and the wrath of God will commence. The grapes will be taken to the barn and the vines will be piled and burned. There will be no flesh left to live in this future kingdom. When the Lord returns, the earth will be harvested and the judgment will come. Not one judgment and another following a thousand years later. I see Rev. 20 as causing a great deal of misunderstanding. When I see it in the perspective of the 1000 years being the time between Chirst's first coming and His return, it makes sense.

I can remember my old grandmother....she didn't worry about the end days, but she did know when we die we go to heaven. That is even being denied by many who see some future Kingdom where Christ will rule with a rod of iron. I see that as a total reversal of what the entire NT teaches. So, yes, I have changed my views by a systematic study of the Word. I don't believe any man knows exactly how God will work all these things out. We aren't meant to know all things, but it should never be a cause of dissension among the brethern.

"All power (authoity) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me". Yes, Jesus IS currently reigning, but that does not preclude a 1000 year period of Him reigning on the earth.

 

[glorydaz]

"All power (authoity) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me". Yes, Jesus IS currently reigning, but that does not preclude a 1000 year period of Him reigning on the earth.

Hmmm....where do you ever read of two kingdoms?

 

[faithtransforms]

As glory stated in his above post. No one can be certain whether or not that angel is Christ or a spirit being. Although it would seem to suggest that it is Christ binding Satan there is no real evidence for this. But in any case this doesn't disprove ammillenialism.

Where are we getting the idea that Jesus bound the strong man at the cross? I remember the parable, but it didn't seem to have anything at all to do with the cross.

It isn't a parable. First, Jesus points out that as He casts out devils by the Spirit of God, the "kingdom of God is come unto you". Satan, before the cross, kept mankind in bondage to the fear of death. Jesus is here referring to a kingdom being divided. He had to bind the strong man, who had the power to keep us in bondage, in order that the Gospel could go forth. He did that with His work on the cross.
[quote="Matt. 12:24-30":2xhmaqqz]But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke puts it like this...

When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

Satan was armed by the power of death...to keep us bound in fear. When Jesus came, he defeated that power Satan had...all his armour wherein he trusted is taken away by the message of the Gospel. Satan has, therefore, been unable to deceive the nations, as in times past, and the message of Salvation has been spread throughout the earth.[/quote:2xhmaqqz]


Nope, couldn't agree less. Jesus is using that as a parable illustrating the principles of the kingdom of God. There is no evidence that he "bound the strong man" on the cross.

 

[faithtransforms]

Saint Jim, what I was trying to say is that the Holy Spirit will NOT leave earth. Otherwise no one could get saved during the tribulation. Yet there will be a mighty harvest during the tribulation. That would not be possible if it were not for the presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[paulr1025]

This is something God has really been impressing upon me to study.

If there is a "pre-trib" it will only include 144,000 and there is good evidence to show there are actually two sets of 144,000... One of which being 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, and the other being a "separate" 144,000 who have NOT defiled themselves with FALSE DOCTRINE women as there is NO guile in them.

The first thing to settle is; the proclamation spoken in Deu and in the gospels...
Hear oh Israel, YHVH our Elohim is ONE..
Or as Paul pointed out... "Is Christ divided?"

The 2nd thing to settle is; some will "willingly" (forecfully) die to self (Matt 11:12 Luke 9:23) where as others will require further refining by FIRE, to be as Pure Gold...

There is only ONE way to "follow the Lamb" and that is outlined in Luke 9:23 DENY YOURSELF AND TAKE UP YOUR CROSS DAILY.
Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

The 3rd thing to settle is; it is a very "small congregation" who will be "kept" from the hour of "testing" or REFINING... Rev 2-3

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Ecc 7:18 It is good that you grasp this, And also not remove your hand from the other; For he who fears God will escape them all.

Eze 6:9 Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations where they are carried captive, because I was crushed by their adulterous heart which has departed from Me, and by their eyes which play the harlot after their idols; they will loathe themselves for the evils which they committed in all their abominations.

Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


BUILD ON THE ROCK BY BEING A DOER OF THE WORD AND NOT A HEARER ONLY DECEIVING YOURSELVES AND CAUSING YOU TO NEED FURTHER REFINING AS THOSE WHO BUILD ON SAND AND STORE UP TREASURES ON EARTH...

Pray, Fast, deny your flesh, so that after you preach to others, you yourself are not disqualified!

Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

 

[archangel_300]

Wow arch, oh boy. no flesh would be ALIVE if he didn't shorten the tribulation! I believe that's what this verse is referring to. Do you even accept the book of Rev at all? Do you think all those judgments are symbolic?!?!?

I don't think so.. the thing is there will always be plagues and things that occur to mankind.
Earthquakes, pestilences, persecution of saints this type of thing happens all the time. Please point me to the passages of scripture in Revelation that *specifically* talk about the judgments that occur during the great tribulation period?

Also if the great tribulation period were really a time when God KILLS all of mankind why does it say that God comes as a theif in the night? Why does the Bible say that things will continue as normal when *very clearly* it won't? We know Christ RETURNS AFTER the great tribulation period... read these passages below.

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

How is it possible that two men will be in one field and one taken the other left if THEY WILL ALL DIE? To me it sounds like when God is stating in Matthew 24 that Christ comes when it's LEAST EXPECTED.

But I'm wondering what the greek word is there is it SAVED as in SALVATION or is it SAVED as in SURVIVED? Nearly every where else in the New Testament where the word SAVED is used it's referring to SALVATION in Jesus Christ. Remember that the context of Matthew 24 is referring to the time false prophets and Christs will arise with signs and wonders. Yes there will be physical changes happening on the earth such as earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars but all these will come to pass and the end is not yet. The end will come AFTER the great tribulation period. I suspect it's a large spiritual tribulation where no one is able to find the light of the gospel and come to SALVATION.

 

[faithtransforms]

"All power (authoity) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me". Yes, Jesus IS currently reigning, but that does not preclude a 1000 year period of Him reigning on the earth.

Hmmm....where do you ever read of two kingdoms?

Uh, how does what I said imply two kingdoms? He is reigning in His kingdom now, currently in heaven. But again that does not preclude a 1000 year reign (of the same kingdom) here on earth.

 

[faithtransforms]

Wow arch, oh boy. no flesh would be ALIVE if he didn't shorten the tribulation! I believe that's what this verse is referring to. Do you even accept the book of Rev at all? Do you think all those judgments are symbolic?!?!?

I don't think so.. the thing is there will always be plagues and things that occur to mankind.
Earthquakes, pestilences, persecution of saints this type of thing happens all the time. Please point me to the passages of scripture in Revelation that *specifically* talk about the judgments that occur during the great tribulation period?

Also if the great tribulation period were really a time when God KILLS all of mankind why does it say that God comes as a theif in the night? Why does the Bible say that things will continue as normal when *very clearly* it won't? We know Christ RETURNS AFTER the great tribulation period... read these passages below.

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

How is it possible that two men will be in one field and one taken the other left if THEY WILL ALL DIE? To me it sounds like when God is stating in Matthew 24 that Christ comes when it's LEAST EXPECTED.

But I'm wondering what the greek word is there is it SAVED as in SALVATION or is it SAVED as in SURVIVED? Nearly every where else in the New Testament where the word SAVED is used it's referring to SALVATION in Jesus Christ. Remember that the context of Matthew 24 is referring to the time false prophets and Christs will arise with signs and wonders. Yes there will be physical changes happening on the earth such as earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars but all these will come to pass and the end is not yet. The end will come AFTER the great tribulation period. I suspect it's a large spiritual tribulation where no one is able to find the light of the gospel and come to SALVATION.

Revelation does not imply that ALL die. But something like about half the population (I will do the math later). As for the judgments, see Rev chapters 6, 8,9, 11, 16. The seal, trumpet and vial judgments. These are a little more profound (greatest understatement ever made) than our current times of natural disasters.

 

[Mike]

FaithTransforms, I have an honest, noncombative question for you. Since you've repeatedly brought up the fact of a literal 1000 year period, what would you make of the number 144,000? Was that a literal 144,000 or was that a figurative number based on the tribes?

Careful how you answer. There may be some JW's wanting to have a word with you :yes You know I'm only kidding