Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[Afew2go]

Seems like this thread kinda got hijacked way back there so let me ask this... what do you Reformers hold to? Pre-, Mid-, Post- or Amillennialism? We've been looking at the Reformed Theology lately and have been wondering about this!

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":z76lailm]

See, this is a perfect example, why would the bible refer to Jesus as an angel? If it was Jesus, it would just say Jesus. I just re-read Rev 20-21, and I can't see where it is saying anything except exactly what it says!

Good for you!!!!!

As glory stated in his above post. No one can be certain whether or not that angel is Christ or a spirit being. Although it would seem to suggest that it is Christ binding Satan there is no real evidence for this. But in any case this doesn't disprove ammillenialism.[/quote:z76lailm]Revelation 20 disproves amillennialism.

 

[watchman F]

LOL,

I brought this scripture up on another thread but I would like someone to tell me that it is not saying what it is saying:

2 THESS 1:5-8 NKJV:

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Believe you me, I would MUCH RATHER BELIEVE IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!! I don't want to go through the tribulation more than anyone else does! But it is scriptures like the one above that convinced me we will go through the trib. Can you tell me this scripture is not saying what it is saying?

For you KJV only's, it says it this way:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer :
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Je/sus Christ

Well, it's still saying the same thing!

Back to the O.P. I would like to see a pretribber explain this verse?

 

[archangel_300]

Revelation 20 disproves amillennialism.

Right... but you haven't given any arguments why.

 

[archangel_300]

Seems like this thread kinda got hijacked way back there so let me ask this... what do you Reformers hold to? Pre-, Mid-, Post- or Amillennialism? We've been looking at the Reformed Theology lately and have been wondering about this!

To be quite honest I'm not quite sure what their official position is on this.
I'm amillenial and believe the church will go through the final tribulation.

I think RC Sproul is one of the finest theological Reformed teachers out there. You might want to check him out. I haven't read any of his books on end times so I don't know what position he holds but you can check him out at: www.ligonier.org

 

[glorydaz]

Revelation 20 disproves amillennialism.

No, it doesn't. Your understanding of Rev. 20 is keeping you bound to one particular reading of that chapter.

 

[faithtransforms]

Good point sis'

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Jesus also said it would like the Day of Noah, Noah also means rest.

Noah prepared, and like the days of Lot, people got out of the city, so try to prepare 3 months of non perishable food and water, and if trib hits, stay out of big cities, it's gonna be ugly if major cities are hit by black outs.

Thanks Yep, you're right. Its a good idea to keep supplies. I live about 1.25 hrs from washington dc, out in the country, believe you me i won't be headed there when the dooky hits the fan, LOL!

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":2kay68kk]
Revelation 20 disproves amillennialism.

Right... but you haven't given any arguments why. [/quote:2kay68kk]Amillennialist say there is no 1,000 year reign, Revelation 20 says there is. That's my argument. Pretty elementary huh? Just believe the bible and not man.

 

[faithtransforms]

[quote="watchman F":1a5n9v8u]

See, this is a perfect example, why would the bible refer to Jesus as an angel? If it was Jesus, it would just say Jesus. I just re-read Rev 20-21, and I can't see where it is saying anything except exactly what it says!

Good for you!!!!!

As glory stated in his above post. No one can be certain whether or not that angel is Christ or a spirit being. Although it would seem to suggest that it is Christ binding Satan there is no real evidence for this. But in any case this doesn't disprove ammillenialism.[/quote:1a5n9v8u]

Where are we getting the idea that Jesus bound the strong man at the cross? I remember the parable, but it didn't seem to have anything at all to do with the cross.

 

[faithtransforms]

[quote="archangel_300":66gradyb][quote="watchman F":66gradyb]
Revelation 20 disproves amillennialism.

Right... but you haven't given any arguments why. [/quote:66gradyb]Amillennialist say there is no 1,000 year reign, Revelation 20 says there is. That's my argument. Pretty elementary huh? Just believe the bible and not man.[/quote:66gradyb]

Right, exactly. There's just absolutely no reason to interpret 1000 years as anything but 1000 years! I think a lot of this started with augustine. although i know of some of earlier church believed it. however, alot of them denied the book of revelation as scripture.

 

[archangel_300]

Good point sis'

Now if I'm not mistaken, Paul is saying that we will enter into our "rest" when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies. Now that does NOT take place at the supposed pre-trib rapture. Clearly this is a picture of His second coming, and us being here when it happens.

Jesus also said it would like the Day of Noah, Noah also means rest.

Noah prepared, and like the days of Lot, people got out of the city, so try to prepare 3 months of non perishable food and water, and if trib hits, stay out of big cities, it's gonna be ugly if major cities are hit by black outs.

Thanks Yep, you're right. Its a good idea to keep supplies. I live about 1.25 hrs from washington dc, out in the country, believe you me i won't be headed there when the dooky hits the fan, LOL!

I don't think you'll have to worry too much on stocking up on supplies when the great tribulation comes. ;)

But I agree it's always good to keep supplies in handy in the event of a natural disaster.

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="archangel_300":2iwnnuhu][quote="watchman F":2iwnnuhu]
Revelation 20 disproves amillennialism.

Right... but you haven't given any arguments why. [/quote:2iwnnuhu]Amillennialist say there is no 1,000 year reign, Revelation 20 says there is. That's my argument. Pretty elementary huh? Just believe the bible and not man.[/quote:2iwnnuhu]

No, they don't say there is no 1000 yr. reign. They say the 1000 yrs. are the church age that runs from the cross to the second coming....not some tacked on millenium after the Lord returns. "Thousand" is used throughout Scripture to refer to completeness. Jesus set up His kingdom when He rose from the cross, the "kingdom within". We are the bride...the consumption of the marriage will be when Christ returns.

At the end of the church age, satan will be loosed for a short time...hence the great tribulation. The church will go through the tribulation, but will be spared the wrath of God. There is a difference between the two.

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks Yep, you're right. Its a good idea to keep supplies. I live about 1.25 hrs from washington dc, out in the country, believe you me i won't be headed there when the dooky hits the fan, LOL!

I don't think you'll have to worry too much on stocking up on supplies when the great tribulation comes. ;)

But I agree it's always good to keep supplies in handy in the event of a natural disaster.

I agree. I figure whatever supplies I have on hand will be shared with others, anyway. We aren't to worry about what tomorrow will bring...sufficient today is the evil thereof. Hide the Word in your hearts would be my best advice. Our Bibles will be the first to go.

 

[Mike]

I'm curious if anyone can honestly say they have been a firm believer in pre-trib, post-trib or amillennialism and became convinced of one of the others. I don't believe the Christian faith hinges on it, but some people are highly defensive of it to the point of excess. Revelation 20 has been studied thoroughly by amillennialists and post-tribbers and both come away convinced it speaks to their interpretation.

Faith makes statements like "how anyone can believe...is beyond comprehension", and I believe such statements are divisive to an unnecessary degree. I'm not picking on you for that, Faith. I'm sure I used similar language when we discussed your acceptance of Prosperity Preaching.

The point here is that amillennialists have likely been indoctrinated in their Christianity as have post-M's and pre-M's. Personally, I had grown into my adulthood before I ever really learned about Post and Pre. Having lived that long with my beliefs, these seemed very odd when I did learn about them. I would guess this is true of someone who has only known, or was introduced to Christianity, with Pre & Post theology.

When someone is entrenched in their beliefs, no one is going to state Rev 20 in any way that will convince them otherwise. I understand how millennialists have a hard time understanding why amillennialists take 1000 years figuratively. I would make arguments that have been made 1000 times that a figurative 1000 year term is in keeping with the symbolic nature of Revelation just as a beast bound by "chains" is figurative.

If Revelation was so clear, there wouldn't be this separation by now, because Lord knows we've had scholars studying it for a long time. I don't think anyone who is resolved of 1 of the 3 beliefs is going to be convinced otherwise, and we should accept brothers and sisters who have opposing views here without labeling them a heretic or lunatic.

If anyone can honestly say that they changed their view when they had thoughtfully and prayerfully spent a long time convinced of one approach, I would be very interested to hear about their shift.

 

[archangel_300]

[quote="archangel_300":3p2l2hs6][quote="watchman F":3p2l2hs6]
Revelation 20 disproves amillennialism.

Right... but you haven't given any arguments why. [/quote:3p2l2hs6]Amillennialist say there is no 1,000 year reign, Revelation 20 says there is. That's my argument. Pretty elementary huh? Just believe the bible and not man.[/quote:3p2l2hs6]

Not really.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years

When does the second death have no power over an individual? Is it during the millenial reign? Or is it after someone becomes saved?

When are we made priests of God and of Christ?

Revelation 1:4 To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Sounds like that's already happened, doesn't it?

We see in revelation 20 that judgement day occurs AFTER the 1000 reign of Christ.
Well if that's the case and Matthew 24 states if anyone says to you "I'm the Christ" don't believe them.
And Christ also states that the next time we will see him is when he returns in his full glory to judge mankind, how is it possible that Christ will come down to earth to establish a millenial reign on this earth FIRST?

Sounds like the millenial reign is already happening.

 

[archangel_300]

I think I have a totally different view of the great tribulation than most.
I honestly think it is a great spiritual tribulation and a time period hardly anyone is become saved because the light of the gospel is no longer found.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Someone STOP ME if I'm wrong here but from reading these verses it seems like what God is saying is that if the Lord extended the tribulation days so that IF the world lasted longer than it should there would be no single individual person on the face of the entire planet that would be coming to salvation in Jesus Christ. Seeing that these verses are also in the CONTEXT of false prophets and false Christ's arising I am not surprised.

I think the great tribulation will mark the time God rests from his creation, the gospel has finished its purpose and the kingdom of God is complete (or nearly complete).

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 18:8
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?â€

 

[saintjim]

Gotta agree with frying pan- all other views are in the fire imo
We have been redeemed from the wrath that is to come when God's justice is revealed in the tribulation as the merciful restrainer of this world[ the Holy spirit ] is withdrawn in the rapture with his Saints
Its a given in my book :D

I am staunchly Millenial and pre-trib.

Romans 5:9--> Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

...
In conclusion the pre-trib view fits in best with the future hope that the Bible presents. In 1 Thess 1:10 we are told to wait for God's son from heaven, not for the Great Tribulation or Antichrist. I believe in the imminence of Jesus' return as that kind of mentality is contained throughout the New Testament.

 

[glorydaz]

If anyone can honestly say that they changed their view when they had thoughtfully and prayerfully spent a long time convinced of one approach, I would be very interested to hear about their shift.

I agree with your entire post, but I'd like to address this point. Back when I was saved, I'd read Late Great Planet Earth. I very quickly put it down and focused on the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, but kept the pre-trib rapture in my thinking as what happens at the end. Then I began posting on a prophecy board, and realized I couldn't agree with much of what was being said. What really caused me to look into it more deeply was this thousand year kingdom tacked on after our Lord returns. I saw people claiming Jesus had to wait to rule and reign. When I'd put forth the scripture that says, not only that He rules and reigns now, but He "must" reign UNTIL all has been put under His feet. Those who claim He is to reign with a "rod of iron", that people will only live to be 100, and that Satan is later loosed to deceive, I have to reject it as unscriptural.

From there I studied Rev. and found it is not written chronologically...John presents events and then the Day of the Lord...more events and the day of the Lord. He does that six different times. He also alludes to the past...what was, what is, and what will be. I see the church going through the tribulation...there is a difference between tribulation and God's wrath. We are kept through...not taken from tribulation, but are spared the wrath. The days will be cut short for the elect's sake, then we will be taken and the wrath of God will commence. The grapes will be taken to the barn and the vines will be piled and burned. There will be no flesh left to live in this future kingdom. When the Lord returns, the earth will be harvested and the judgment will come. Not one judgment and another following a thousand years later. I see Rev. 20 as causing a great deal of misunderstanding. When I see it in the perspective of the 1000 years being the time between Chirst's first coming and His return, it makes sense.

I can remember my old grandmother....she didn't worry about the end days, but she did know when we die we go to heaven. That is even being denied by many who see some future Kingdom where Christ will rule with a rod of iron. I see that as a total reversal of what the entire NT teaches. So, yes, I have changed my views by a systematic study of the Word. I don't believe any man knows exactly how God will work all these things out. We aren't meant to know all things, but it should never be a cause of dissension among the brethern.

 

[glorydaz]

As glory stated in his above post. No one can be certain whether or not that angel is Christ or a spirit being. Although it would seem to suggest that it is Christ binding Satan there is no real evidence for this. But in any case this doesn't disprove ammillenialism.

Where are we getting the idea that Jesus bound the strong man at the cross? I remember the parable, but it didn't seem to have anything at all to do with the cross.

It isn't a parable. First, Jesus points out that as He casts out devils by the Spirit of God, the "kingdom of God is come unto you". Satan, before the cross, kept mankind in bondage to the fear of death. Jesus is here referring to a kingdom being divided. He had to bind the strong man, who had the power to keep us in bondage, in order that the Gospel could go forth. He did that with His work on the cross.

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke puts it like this...

When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

Satan was armed by the power of death...to keep us bound in fear. When Jesus came, he defeated that power Satan had...all his armour wherein he trusted is taken away by the message of the Gospel. Satan has, therefore, been unable to deceive the nations, as in times past, and the message of Salvation has been spread throughout the earth.

 

[archangel_300]

I'm curious if anyone can honestly say they have been a firm believer in pre-trib, post-trib or amillennialism and became convinced of one of the others. I don't believe the Christian faith hinges on it, but some people are highly defensive of it to the point of excess. Revelation 20 has been studied thoroughly by amillennialists and post-tribbers and both come away convinced it speaks to their interpretation.

Faith makes statements like "how anyone can believe...is beyond comprehension", and I believe such statements are divisive to an unnecessary degree. I'm not picking on you for that, Faith. I'm sure I used similar language when we discussed your acceptance of Prosperity Preaching.

The point here is that amillennialists have likely been indoctrinated in their Christianity as have post-M's and pre-M's. Personally, I had grown into my adulthood before I ever really learned about Post and Pre. Having lived that long with my beliefs, these seemed very odd when I did learn about them. I would guess this is true of someone who has only known, or was introduced to Christianity, with Pre & Post theology.

When someone is entrenched in their beliefs, no one is going to state Rev 20 in any way that will convince them otherwise. I understand how millennialists have a hard time understanding why amillennialists take 1000 years figuratively. I would make arguments that have been made 1000 times that a figurative 1000 year term is in keeping with the symbolic nature of Revelation just as a beast bound by "chains" is figurative.

If Revelation was so clear, there wouldn't be this separation by now, because Lord knows we've had scholars studying it for a long time. I don't think anyone who is resolved of 1 of the 3 beliefs is going to be convinced otherwise, and we should accept brothers and sisters who have opposing views here without labeling them a heretic or lunatic.

If anyone can honestly say that they changed their view when they had thoughtfully and prayerfully spent a long time convinced of one approach, I would be very interested to hear about their shift.

I agree with your post.
I used to be somewhat convinced of a literal future 1000 year reign of Christ myself.
Come to think of it I must have first heard about the ammillienialist position on the radio sometime back I believe. At first I was like what the? No way! Are you crazy its clearly in Revelation 20? My response would be somewhere along the lines of watchman. So I don't take any offense from anybody here because to some this may be the first time they heard something like this from such a different perspective. Then I started searching the scriptures carefully myself and I then came to the conclusion that ammillialism fits perfectly and harmonizes properly with the rest of scripture. I needed to do a lot of thinking and studying before I came to this conclusion though.

The other positions don't fit properly when looked closely at the rest of the Bible. But as always I'm willing to hear out anybody's position if they can prove their point that's great. I'm all for finding the truth.