Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[awaken]

I can not believe I am jumping in on another thread about the rapture..whether pre..mid..post..we all believe a rapture will take place, right?


Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The Church is the body of Christ. Just as God the Father holds no condemnation or wrath against Christ, God also holds no condemnation or wrath against Christ's body. If you are a member of the body of Christ ( the Church) then you will never experience any condemnation or wrath from God, and you are not appointed to suffer any wrath:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" (Romans 5:9)

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1-2)

"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thessalonians 1:10)

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

We should keep in mind that all Christians will be raptured at the appropriate time no matter what our personal views are concerning the Rapture. If we are caught up to be with Jesus before the seven-year Tribulation period begins, then praise the Lord! But if the Antichrist comes to power before Jesus returns for us then praise the Lord anyway, and let's work together to oppose the Antichrist.

 

[faithtransforms]

I'm curious if anyone can honestly say they have been a firm believer in pre-trib, post-trib or amillennialism and became convinced of one of the others. I don't believe the Christian faith hinges on it, but some people are highly defensive of it to the point of excess. Revelation 20 has been studied thoroughly by amillennialists and post-tribbers and both come away convinced it speaks to their interpretation.

Faith makes statements like "how anyone can believe...is beyond comprehension", and I believe such statements are divisive to an unnecessary degree. I'm not picking on you for that, Faith. I'm sure I used similar language when we discussed your acceptance of Prosperity Preaching.

The point here is that amillennialists have likely been indoctrinated in their Christianity as have post-M's and pre-M's. Personally, I had grown into my adulthood before I ever really learned about Post and Pre. Having lived that long with my beliefs, these seemed very odd when I did learn about them. I would guess this is true of someone who has only known, or was introduced to Christianity, with Pre & Post theology.

When someone is entrenched in their beliefs, no one is going to state Rev 20 in any way that will convince them otherwise. I understand how millennialists have a hard time understanding why amillennialists take 1000 years figuratively. I would make arguments that have been made 1000 times that a figurative 1000 year term is in keeping with the symbolic nature of Revelation just as a beast bound by "chains" is figurative.

If Revelation was so clear, there wouldn't be this separation by now, because Lord knows we've had scholars studying it for a long time. I don't think anyone who is resolved of 1 of the 3 beliefs is going to be convinced otherwise, and we should accept brothers and sisters who have opposing views here without labeling them a heretic or lunatic.

If anyone can honestly say that they changed their view when they had thoughtfully and prayerfully spent a long time convinced of one approach, I would be very interested to hear about their shift.

Mjjcb, I honestly mean no disrespect, but I truly CANNOT fathom the amillennialist viewpoint. I just can't. I have always been taught to interpret the Word as literal except where it is impossible to do so (such as the beast Daniel saw, which was subsequently revealed to be different kingdoms). I feel amillennialists coming from way out in left field with the figurative interpretation. It simply doesn't make sense to me at all. I had never met an amillennialist before I came to this board and had no idea the this view point was so prevalent. I mean no disrespect, I don't question yours or any other amillennialists' devotion to God, but I honestly simply cannot understand how this point of view is extrapolated from the plain teaching of the scriptures. Of course, it does not affect anyone's salvation, and if I have offended anyone it was not my intent. I am just truly dumbfounded by this point of view. I really am.

 

[archangel_300]

Revelation does not imply that ALL die. But something like about half the population (I will do the math later). As for the judgments, see Rev chapters 6, 8,9, 11, 16. The seal, trumpet and vial judgments. These are a little more profound (greatest understatement ever made) than our current times of natural disasters.

Most of Revelation is written in symbolic form. It cannot always be taken literally and I'm skeptical that any part should.

Revelation 9:7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.

Do you really believe locusts wearing crowns of gold and having faces of men are going to be released over the world? This sounds like science fiction.

Revelation 11 is NOT referring to the great tribulation period. It's referring to the New Testament church and the testimony of God that is destroyed. This is definitely supposed to be understood symbolically.

If you are saying Revelation 16 is referring to the great tribulation period then you are saying I cannot eat SALMON SASHIMI during that time... now that's really gonna piss me off.
Revelation 16:3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

 

[Mike]

Mjjcb, I honestly mean no disrespect, but I truly CANNOT fathom the amillennialist viewpoint. I just can't. I have always been taught to interpret the Word as literal except where it is impossible to do so (such as the beast Daniel saw, which was subsequently revealed to be different kingdoms). I feel amillennialists coming from way out in left field with the figurative interpretation. It simply doesn't make sense to me at all. I had never met an amillennialist before I came to this board and had no idea the this view point was so prevalent. I mean no disrespect, I don't question yours or any other amillennialists' devotion to God, but I honestly simply cannot understand how this point of view is extrapolated from the plain teaching of the scriptures. Of course, it does not affect anyone's salvation, and if I have offended anyone it was not my intent. I am just truly dumbfounded by this point of view. I really am.

Faithtransforms, you must have missed my last question to you. Check this out, all in good Christian love.

FaithTransforms, I have an honest, noncombative question for you. Since you've repeatedly brought up the fact of a literal 1000 year period, what would you make of the number 144,000? Was that a literal 144,000 or was that a figurative number based on the tribes?

Careful how you answer. There may be some JW's wanting to have a word with you :yes You know I'm only kidding

Do you take the 144,000 literally? Seriously, the only place I've ever heard that talked about literally is at a Kingdom Hall. Do you agree with the JW's?

 

[veteran]

So if a believer reads what our Lord Jesus gave in Rev.7 about a group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes as being literal, it means one is a Jehovah's Witness? That's absurd. I could as easily make up something like for all those who don't believe it's a literal number being atheists for not accepting the Scripture as written.

In that same Rev.7 chapter another group is mentioned that is too large to number. So is that group not to be understood literally also?

 

[veteran]

I can not believe I am jumping in on another thread about the rapture..whether pre..mid..post..we all believe a rapture will take place, right?


Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

 

[veteran]

Most of Revelation is written in symbolic form. It cannot always be taken literally and I'm skeptical that any part should.

Revelation 9:7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.

Do you really believe locusts wearing crowns of gold and having faces of men are going to be released over the world? This sounds like science fiction.

Revelation 11 is NOT referring to the great tribulation period. It's referring to the New Testament church and the testimony of God that is destroyed. This is definitely supposed to be understood symbolically.

If you are saying Revelation 16 is referring to the great tribulation period then you are saying I cannot eat SALMON SASHIMI during that time... now that's really gonna piss me off.
Revelation 16:3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

The symbols given in Revelation are literal, as also the things they're used to point to are literal.

The locusts and scorpion symbols in Rev.9 are being used to describe HOW a group of men attack their prey (the deceived). Someone who had taken the time to study all of God's Word would know this, for God often used the type symbols in Revelation first in the OT Books of the prophets. The locust metaphor was first used in the Book of Joel.

The locust army of Rev.9 is about MEN, and how they work like real locusts and scorpions on earth do. It has never meant some form of metamorphized monster coming upon the earth. God used those symbols to make it EASIER to understand how those men work. It's always been about a literal group of men, united for spiritual battle like an army, coming in order to deceive the world. Our Lord did that so it would be so easy to grasp that a little child could understand it. It's not meant to be mystical or mysterious, but very simple.

 

[Mysteryman]

I can not believe I am jumping in on another thread about the rapture..whether pre..mid..post..we all believe a rapture will take place, right?


Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

Hi

Please stop people and think (reason out). The tribulation of God is the wrath of God , period !

God's wrath starts at the tribulation of God, not only at the end of the tribulation of God. This occures over a period of many, many years.

The tribulation of God is in two parts, and this is why people get so confused. God starts out by bringing on a great earth quake, and then the stars fall from the heaven, and every mountain and island were moved out of their place. The sun turns to darkness and the moon became as blood. But this was not the great day of his wrath, but it was God's wrath, nonetheless ! Fear and desperation was the result of this event. God did not give us the Spirit of fear. God gave us comfort, that we would not be a part of his wrath.

 

[faithtransforms]

Faithtransforms, you must have missed my last question to you. Check this out, all in good Christian love.

FaithTransforms, I have an honest, noncombative question for you. Since you've repeatedly brought up the fact of a literal 1000 year period, what would you make of the number 144,000? Was that a literal 144,000 or was that a figurative number based on the tribes?

Careful how you answer. There may be some JW's wanting to have a word with you :yes You know I'm only kidding

Do you take the 144,000 literally? Seriously, the only place I've ever heard that talked about literally is at a Kingdom Hall. Do you agree with the JW's?

Sorry, didn't see that. Of course I believe in a literal 144K. They will be witnesses to the Messiah during the tribulation. And no, the JW's are DEFINITELY NOT the only ones who interpret that literally. As far as I know, ALL evangelical churches believe this. I'm guessing you are from a reforrmed church background (though I don't know for sure) Go to the end times/prophecy board and you will see LOTS of people who take the 144K literally. They will evangelize the world during the tribulation, that's their job. Honestly, I've never heard of anyone who DIDN'T take the 144K literally until now!

Who else in this discussion thinks the 144K is figurative? I'm guessing you probably do arch, though I k could be wrong, anyone else? You glorydaz? Anyone? And for a show of hands, who believes in the literal 144K?

 

[faithtransforms]

oops, last message got posted twice. editing it out on this one.

 

[faithtransforms]

I can not believe I am jumping in on another thread about the rapture..whether pre..mid..post..we all believe a rapture will take place, right?


Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

The wrath AFTER the trib? Rev 11 doesn't prove that line of reasoning at all! Remember, Rev is written out of sequence. It is hard to put the events in sequence, but there are seals, trials and trumpets!

I believe God will mostly protect us during the trib. Some of us will be killed, which is an honor and will give us an even greater standing in the kingdom. As it is clear we will be rewarded according to our deeds.

 

[faithtransforms]

Most of Revelation is written in symbolic form. It cannot always be taken literally and I'm skeptical that any part should.

Revelation 9:7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.

Do you really believe locusts wearing crowns of gold and having faces of men are going to be released over the world? This sounds like science fiction.

Revelation 11 is NOT referring to the great tribulation period. It's referring to the New Testament church and the testimony of God that is destroyed. This is definitely supposed to be understood symbolically.

If you are saying Revelation 16 is referring to the great tribulation period then you are saying I cannot eat SALMON SASHIMI during that time... now that's really gonna piss me off.
Revelation 16:3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

The symbols given in Revelation are literal, as also the things they're used to point to are literal.

The locusts and scorpion symbols in Rev.9 are being used to describe HOW a group of men attack their prey (the deceived). Someone who had taken the time to study all of God's Word would know this, for God often used the type symbols in Revelation first in the OT Books of the prophets. The locust metaphor was first used in the Book of Joel.

The locust army of Rev.9 is about MEN, and how they work like real locusts and scorpions on earth do. It has never meant some form of metamorphized monster coming upon the earth. God used those symbols to make it EASIER to understand how those men work. It's always been about a literal group of men, united for spiritual battle like an army, coming in order to deceive the world. Our Lord did that so it would be so easy to grasp that a little child could understand it. It's not meant to be mystical or mysterious, but very simple.

Oh my....So were the frogs and lice and flies in Exodus symbolic too? Your interpretation simple? Hardly. I suppose the locusts could be figurative, as are the horsemen. I will have to think about that.

I definitely believe that Rev 16 is literal.

 

[awaken]

I can not believe I am jumping in on another thread about the rapture..whether pre..mid..post..we all believe a rapture will take place, right?


Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

I understand that the last half of the 7 years is going to be worse than the first (the great trib).

"The Tribulation" - A future seven-year period during which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. The Tribulation will begin when Israel signs a treaty with the Antichrist, and it will end at the Second Coming.

"The Great Tribulation" - The final three and a half years (1,260 days) of the seven-year Tribulation.

Daniel's "70 Weeks" prophecy is a good place to understand some of this.... 69 of those "weeks" (483 years) have already been accomplished. The 70th "week" is still in the future, and it will be the seven years of the Tribulation. When God put His 70 Weeks plan for Israel on hold after the Triumphal Entry, almost immediately He began a new and separate plan which we call "the Church." There is only one view of the Rapture which preserves this separation between God's 70 Weeks plan for Israel and His plan for the Church, and that is the pre-trib view. All of the evidence indicates that God has intended for those two plans to be kept separate and distinct from each other, with no mixing whatsoever. Therefore, it is unScriptural to claim that the Church will go through any part of the seven-year Tribulation period.

 

[glorydaz]

It isn't a parable. First, Jesus points out that as He casts out devils by the Spirit of God, the "kingdom of God is come unto you". Satan, before the cross, kept mankind in bondage to the fear of death. Jesus is here referring to a kingdom being divided. He had to bind the strong man, who had the power to keep us in bondage, in order that the Gospel could go forth. He did that with His work on the cross.

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke puts it like this...
[quote="Luke 11:21-22":3geup49u] When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

Satan was armed by the power of death...to keep us bound in fear. When Jesus came, he defeated that power Satan had...all his armour wherein he trusted is taken away by the message of the Gospel. Satan has, therefore, been unable to deceive the nations, as in times past, and the message of Salvation has been spread throughout the earth.

Nope, couldn't agree less. Jesus is using that as a parable illustrating the principles of the kingdom of God. There is no evidence that he "bound the strong man" on the cross.[/quote:3geup49u]

Whether you "couldn't agree less" doesn't really matter to me, but what does matter is what Jesus did on the cross. I'll respond for those who may be interested. We see here it was through His death that Jesus destroyed "him that had the power of death." It's clear something happened to satan at the cross. Denying that is pretty hard to do.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

In your view, Christ must return to earth again to bind Satan. I see that He already has, and it was the cross that did it because Jesus said the kingdom of God is "come unto you"...while He was here the first time. So the strong man verses do pertain to the coming of His kingdom and the binding of satan whichever view you happen to hold. Premillennialists believe the Second Coming must take place before Satan is bound, that he is successfully preventing the reign of Jesus from taking place on earth. It comes down to whether one thinks Christ bound the strong man at the cross or if He must wait until He comes again.

 

[glorydaz]

"All power (authoity) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me". Yes, Jesus IS currently reigning, but that does not preclude a 1000 year period of Him reigning on the earth.

Hmmm....where do you ever read of two kingdoms?

Uh, how does what I said imply two kingdoms? He is reigning in His kingdom now, currently in heaven. But again that does not preclude a 1000 year reign (of the same kingdom) here on earth.

Well, if Christ is reigning now, why aren't you including that in the 1000 yrs? He brought in His kingdom when He came the first time...we are His body here on earth. Jesus even said His kingdom was not of this world. So.... how do you see Him reigning on earth for another separate Kingdom of 1000 yrs? Just asking....since most who claim He reigns in the future don't see Him reigning now.

 

[watchman F]

Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

The wrath AFTER the trib? Rev 11 doesn't prove that line of reasoning at all! Remember, Rev is written out of sequence. It is hard to put the events in sequence, but there are seals, trials and trumpets!

I believe God will mostly protect us during the trib. Some of us will be killed, which is an honor and will give us an even greater standing in the kingdom. As it is clear we will be rewarded according to our deeds.[/quote]I do not think that Revelation 11 is out of sequence at all. We that are martyred are martyred by man and satan of whom we been suffering the wrath of since the cross. No believer will suffers God's wrath we will have divine protection from it during the Trib.

 

[archangel_300]

Oh my....So were the frogs and lice and flies in Exodus symbolic too? Your interpretation simple? Hardly. I suppose the locusts could be figurative, as are the horsemen. I will have to think about that.

I definitely believe that Rev 16 is literal.

No... but this is the point I'm trying to get at.
When looking and studying the book of Exodus there is no indication that the events that took place are supposed to be symbolically understood. But when you study the book of Revelation it appears that the entire book is supposed to be understood symbolically.

For example:
Revelation 19:11-18 "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[a] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[c] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

Do you think that when Christ returns he will be wearing a robe dipped in blood and there will be an actual sword that hangs from his mouth? Do you think that he'll come back galloping on a horse with a big TATOO on his thigh in big bold jail house script "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"?? As if we really needed a TATOO to figure this one out?

No what we are looking at here is Christ returning as the victorious conquering king. His eyes as a flame of fire are are being used as the instrument of judgment. The robe dipped in blood identifies him as the crucified king. The sword that comes out of his mouth is the Word of God with which he will judge all of mankind.

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;

By comparing scripture with scripture you can do this with nearly everything in the book of Revelation. My question is where do you draw the line between interpreting something in the book of Revelation as literal verus symbolically? I think we need to take a step back and compare the passages in the book of Revelation with the rest of scripture and then from that determine whether or not something is to be taken literally.

 

[glorydaz]

I can not believe I am jumping in on another thread about the rapture..whether pre..mid..post..we all believe a rapture will take place, right?


Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

I agree...the Tribulation is man's wrath, not God's. God's wrath is poured out at the end of the Tribulation, and there will obviously be believers present during the Tribulation. The Tribulation is cut short for our sake. Rev. simply cannot be read like a novel from start to finish. The Day of the Lord is depicted six different times with events leading up to that day describing the different Tribulation events. The church will be taken just prior to the pouring out of the vials of God's wrath.

 

[archangel_300]

The symbols given in Revelation are literal, as also the things they're used to point to are literal.

The locusts and scorpion symbols in Rev.9 are being used to describe HOW a group of men attack their prey (the deceived). Someone who had taken the time to study all of God's Word would know this, for God often used the type symbols in Revelation first in the OT Books of the prophets. The locust metaphor was first used in the Book of Joel.

The locust army of Rev.9 is about MEN, and how they work like real locusts and scorpions on earth do. It has never meant some form of metamorphized monster coming upon the earth. God used those symbols to make it EASIER to understand how those men work. It's always been about a literal group of men, united for spiritual battle like an army, coming in order to deceive the world. Our Lord did that so it would be so easy to grasp that a little child could understand it. It's not meant to be mystical or mysterious, but very simple.

I agree that the locusts described here have a connection with the book of Joel.
But the point that I was trying to make with faithtransforms is that you cannot take something literally in the book of Revelation when a picture describes a thousand words. Yes John did see a vision of these actual literal things and he wrote them down but in order to come to the correct conclusion about what he saw we have to compare this with the rest of scripture to get a proper understanding.

 

[Mike]

Sorry, didn't see that. Of course I believe in a literal 144K. They will be witnesses to the Messiah during the tribulation. And no, the JW's are DEFINITELY NOT the only ones who interpret that literally. As far as I know, ALL evangelical churches believe this. I'm guessing you are from a reforrmed church background (though I don't know for sure) Go to the end times/prophecy board and you will see LOTS of people who take the 144K literally. They will evangelize the world during the tribulation, that's their job. Honestly, I've never heard of anyone who DIDN'T take the 144K literally until now!

Who else in this discussion thinks the 144K is figurative? I'm guessing you probably do arch, though I k could be wrong, anyone else? You glorydaz? Anyone? And for a show of hands, who believes in the literal 144K?

Well... apparently you have been living in a bubble, or I have been living in a bubble, or both of us are living in our own bubbles. I have NEVER heard of ANYONE besides JW's that believe the 144,000 number. You can't find it anywhere within your capacity that it happens to be a 12x12 of the tribes and a figurative number? You can't even contemplate that possibility? Since you believe no one holds my view, and I believe few hold yours, I might just throw it out there on its own accord and let people weigh in. Admittedly, most of the people I get into theological discussions with are members of my church and small Bible study groups. And to set the record straight (as I did in the "denominational" thread), I am Lutheran - Missouri Synod.

I don't mean this to divert from the overall discussion. I just brought it up, because I was SURE faithtransforms would acknowledge 144,000 as being symbolic of the tribes. I don't want to veer the thread off coarse on this point.

faithtransforms, I mean this half-seriously. Do you think our interpretation of end times might exclude us from Salvation? Are you really so bent on separating us from the body of Christ??? Some might, but as I've gotten to know you, I wouldn't think so. You say you can't fathom believing what we do, but that you believed it for "many years". I can understand where I was at before I fully accepted Christ, which allows me to relate to people who haven't. How do you have an inability to put yourself in the place of someone to rejects your interpretation of Rev 20, WHICH EVERYONE HAS READ!!!! and come away with different interps.

Love you, Faith!!!!!