Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[archangel_300]

Sorry, didn't see that. Of course I believe in a literal 144K. They will be witnesses to the Messiah during the tribulation. And no, the JW's are DEFINITELY NOT the only ones who interpret that literally. As far as I know, ALL evangelical churches believe this. I'm guessing you are from a reforrmed church background (though I don't know for sure) Go to the end times/prophecy board and you will see LOTS of people who take the 144K literally. They will evangelize the world during the tribulation, that's their job. Honestly, I've never heard of anyone who DIDN'T take the 144K literally until now!

Who else in this discussion thinks the 144K is figurative? I'm guessing you probably do arch, though I k could be wrong, anyone else? You glorydaz? Anyone? And for a show of hands, who believes in the literal 144K?

I believe the 144K is to be figuratively understood and is a reference to the complete kingdom of God. Each one of these individuals is sealed before the angels standing at the four corners of the earth can be released and do damage to the earth. These 144K were sealed with the Holy Spirit. I suspect not certain about this... that the four angels here is a reference to Revelation 20 when Satan is released during the great tribulation. Until the great tribulation comes these four angels are bound and cannot do any harm until all of God's people are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory

If you take a look at Revelation 21 part of the passage refers to a holy city "New Jerusalem" coming down from heaven. This is a picture of the bride of Christ consisting of all believers in Jesus Christ. The city is measured at 144 cubits.

 

[glorydaz]

Faithtransforms, you must have missed my last question to you. Check this out, all in good Christian love.

FaithTransforms, I have an honest, noncombative question for you. Since you've repeatedly brought up the fact of a literal 1000 year period, what would you make of the number 144,000? Was that a literal 144,000 or was that a figurative number based on the tribes?

Careful how you answer. There may be some JW's wanting to have a word with you :yes You know I'm only kidding

Do you take the 144,000 literally? Seriously, the only place I've ever heard that talked about literally is at a Kingdom Hall. Do you agree with the JW's?

Sorry, didn't see that. Of course I believe in a literal 144K. They will be witnesses to the Messiah during the tribulation. And no, the JW's are DEFINITELY NOT the only ones who interpret that literally. As far as I know, ALL evangelical churches believe this. I'm guessing you are from a reforrmed church background (though I don't know for sure) Go to the end times/prophecy board and you will see LOTS of people who take the 144K literally. They will evangelize the world during the tribulation, that's their job. Honestly, I've never heard of anyone who DIDN'T take the 144K literally until now!

Who else in this discussion thinks the 144K is figurative? I'm guessing you probably do arch, though I k could be wrong, anyone else? You glorydaz? Anyone? And for a show of hands, who believes in the literal 144K?

Could be either one, as far as I know. I'm pretty sure no one knows....I've seen so many opinions about Revelation and the 144,00, anything is possible. I'd venture to say, anyone who claims to understand Revelation is living in lala land. I do find it humorous that some claim to take everything literally and then turn around to tell us what each thing really means. :biglaugh

I will say this...I was on a prophecy board for a long time, and there are many that do not take it literally. Numbers are a tricky business in the Bible...and not just in Revelation. As I've pointed out, the 1000 yrs. being taken so literally is especially amusing since it's used so non-literally through the entire Bible. But, you all go ahead and say it's literal...that's fine with me. I'm wondering how those literal chains are able to bind Satan, though...

 

[glorydaz]

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

The wrath AFTER the trib? Rev 11 doesn't prove that line of reasoning at all! Remember, Rev is written out of sequence. It is hard to put the events in sequence, but there are seals, trials and trumpets!

I believe God will mostly protect us during the trib. Some of us will be killed, which is an honor and will give us an even greater standing in the kingdom. As it is clear we will be rewarded according to our deeds.

Look out, little girl....you're arguing with a veteran. :yes :biglaugh

Of course the wrath comes after the tribulation. You might want to rethink that one.

 

[glorydaz]

Revelation does not imply that ALL die. But something like about half the population (I will do the math later). As for the judgments, see Rev chapters 6, 8,9, 11, 16. The seal, trumpet and vial judgments. These are a little more profound (greatest understatement ever made) than our current times of natural disasters.

Really? The earth is harvested. The grapes are gathered into the barn and the vines are burned up.

The birds feast on all flesh...all that have survived every mountain being moved from it's place and all the other natural disasters...to say nothing of the blood being up to the bridles on the horses, and the birds eating all flesh.

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.....And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Oh, and yum yum...I'm wondering if this is the supper for the Bride. I'm sure glad you all like that literal interpretation of Revelation. Will it be barbeque?

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh my....So were the frogs and lice and flies in Exodus symbolic too? Your interpretation simple? Hardly. I suppose the locusts could be figurative, as are the horsemen. I will have to think about that.

I definitely believe that Rev 16 is literal.

Put on your bib because the wedding supper should be scrumptuous. :biglaugh

 

[Mike]

It seems this has come down to FaithTransforms failing to understand how metaphors are used in Revelation (but doesn't condemn A-Mins) while watchman seems to believe we will perish for our understanding.

I don't believe I've seen an A-min condemn others for differences in scriptural understanding. I believe it's interesting to discuss, but not condemn.

FaithTransforms, as much as you don't understand how much I believe Revelation is written in metaphors and symbolism, I don't understand how your mind can exclude this interp.

You believe that in looking at all of heavenly hosts, there was counted a number of 144,000? He counted 144,000? You have completely dismissed the possibility that this could be a symbol of the tribes to the point that you find it incomprehensible to be otherwise. As much as I respect and admire your faith, I think you're holding to this number simply to remain constant to the 1000 year literalism. He wouldn't count 144,000! 12x12=144. 10 is a perfect number. 10x144=144,000. No one will condemn you or count your faith out if you at least acknowledge this!

I wouldn't be so hung up on this number if you haven't been completely dismissing that every number, reference and figure in Rev is to be taken literal.

I'm waiting, as have others in the past, looking up in the sky, wondering when Christ will turn off the lights, cast the stars down and bring His prophecy to fulfillment. THAT will be the end of the story! Every eye will see, every ear will hear...

 

[faithtransforms]

I understand that the last half of the 7 years is going to be worse than the first (the great trib).

"The Tribulation" - A future seven-year period during which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. The Tribulation will begin when Israel signs a treaty with the Antichrist, and it will end at the Second Coming.

"The Great Tribulation" - The final three and a half years (1,260 days) of the seven-year Tribulation.

Daniel's "70 Weeks" prophecy is a good place to understand some of this.... 69 of those "weeks" (483 years) have already been accomplished. The 70th "week" is still in the future, and it will be the seven years of the Tribulation. When God put His 70 Weeks plan for Israel on hold after the Triumphal Entry, almost immediately He began a new and separate plan which we call "the Church." There is only one view of the Rapture which preserves this separation between God's 70 Weeks plan for Israel and His plan for the Church, and that is the pre-trib view. All of the evidence indicates that God has intended for those two plans to be kept separate and distinct from each other, with no mixing whatsoever. Therefore, it is unScriptural to claim that the Church will go through any part of the seven-year Tribulation period.

I agree with everything you said, except the church WILL go through the tribulation. If you can explain the scriptures I posted on the original post, I'll consider it. I had always taken the pre trib view hook line and sinker. Then time after time after time of reading the NT, I realized there is little evidence for a pre trib rapture. I believe the wrath we will be saved from is the lake of fire. And also, that during the trib we will be protected mostly, until the power is given to the beast to overcome us, can't remember what chapter that is. Can you please interpret the scriptures in the original post for me?

 

[watchman F]

Tribulation is the period of time when God will pour out His wrath onto the earth. But is the Church meant to suffer God's wrath?

The way it's written in Scripture, is that the pouring out of God's wrath upon the wicked happens AFTER the tribulation. It's what ends the tribulation time. Check out the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet events of Rev.11.

The "great tribulation" is a different time, for it's going on UNTIL Christ comes and pours our His cup of wrath. We are assigned to suffer through the tribulation, but not God's wrath that comes later.

The wrath AFTER the trib? Rev 11 doesn't prove that line of reasoning at all! Remember, Rev is written out of sequence. It is hard to put the events in sequence, but there are seals, trials and trumpets!

I believe God will mostly protect us during the trib. Some of us will be killed, which is an honor and will give us an even greater standing in the kingdom. As it is clear we will be rewarded according to our deeds.

I do not think that Revelation 11 is out of sequence at all. We that are martyred are martyred by man and satan of whom we been suffering the wrath of since the cross. No believer will suffers God's wrath we will have divine protection from it during the Trib.

 

[archangel_300]

Revelation does not imply that ALL die. But something like about half the population (I will do the math later). As for the judgments, see Rev chapters 6, 8,9, 11, 16. The seal, trumpet and vial judgments. These are a little more profound (greatest understatement ever made) than our current times of natural disasters.

Really? The earth is harvested. The grapes are gathered into the barn and the vines are burned up.

The birds feast on all flesh...all that have survived every mountain being moved from it's place and all the other natural disasters...to say nothing of the blood being up to the bridles on the horses, and the birds eating all flesh.

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.....And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Oh, and yum yum...I'm wondering if this is the supper for the Bride. I'm sure glad you all like that literal interpretation of Revelation. Will it be barbeque?
[quote="Rev. 19:17-18":ssae55j0]And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

[/quote:ssae55j0]

LOL!!

Whoa... dude man Godzilla RETURNS!!!

Revelation 13:1 Then I[a] stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

[attachment=0:ssae55j0]godzilla.jpg[/attachment:ssae55j0]

 

[faithtransforms]

Whether you "couldn't agree less" doesn't really matter to me, but what does matter is what Jesus did on the cross. I'll respond for those who may be interested. We see here it was through His death that Jesus destroyed "him that had the power of death." It's clear something happened to satan at the cross. Denying that is pretty hard to do.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

[quote="John 12:31-33":2dltwius]Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

In your view, Christ must return to earth again to bind Satan. I see that He already has, and it was the cross that did it because Jesus said the kingdom of God is "come unto you"...while He was here the first time. So the strong man verses do pertain to the coming of His kingdom and the binding of satan whichever view you happen to hold. Premillennialists believe the Second Coming must take place before Satan is bound, that he is successfully preventing the reign of Jesus from taking place on earth. It comes down to whether one thinks Christ bound the strong man at the cross or if He must wait until He comes again.[/quote:2dltwius]

Glorydaz, i don't expect you to care whether i agree or not. In my view, satan is a defeated foe with regard to believers, but i do not see him as bound in any way as far as the world is concerned. Why do you think Paul calls him the god of this world? Also, if satan were already in the pit, how come it says he and archangel Michael fought and he was cast down to earth FROM HEAVEN?

 

[archangel_300]

Glorydaz, i don't expect you to care whether i agree or not. In my view, satan is a defeated foe with regard to believers, but i do not see him as bound in any way as far as the world is concerned. Why do you think Paul calls him the god of this world? Also, if satan were already in the pit, how come it says he and archangel Michael fought and he was cast down to earth FROM HEAVEN?

The fact is he was bound in some sort of way.
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Now the thing I'm hesitant about this verse is that it doesn't explicitly refer to the cross. So I can't really use this verse as proof text. But we can conclude that somewhere at some point in time the angels were bound in some manner.

 

[awaken]

I agree with everything you said, except the church WILL go through the tribulation. If you can explain the scriptures I posted on the original post, I'll consider it. I had always taken the pre trib view hook line and sinker. Then time after time after time of reading the NT, I realized there is little evidence for a pre trib rapture. I believe the wrath we will be saved from is the lake of fire. And also, that during the trib we will be protected mostly, until the power is given to the beast to overcome us, can't remember what chapter that is. Can you please interpret the scriptures in the original post for me?

In order to do those scriptures justice..you will have to know a lot of background about the letters to the Thess..

Consider that if Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians about a pre-trib Rapture, then it would be natural for them become alarmed when someone told them that the Tribulation had already begun. This information would have contradicted what Paul had taught them, so they would have urgently contacted Paul for a clarification. Since this false information was not what Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians, Paul would have defended his teachings when he wrote back to the Thessalonian Christians. This scenario is exactly what we see in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, which is why Paul said in that passage, "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

In addition, when the Thessalonian Christians were given a false report that the Day of the Lord (the seven-year Tribulation period) had begun, there was evidence which convinced them that this report might be true, which is why they became alarmed. For example, in the context of the end-times and the Tribulation period, Jesus said, "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death" (Matthew 24:3-16). There will be a great persecution of the saints in the early stages of the Tribulation, and notice that the Thessalonian Christians were experiencing persecutions:

"Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. ... With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." (2 Thessalonians 1:4-2:2)

Notice that when Paul began to comfort the Thessalonian Christians concerning the Day of the Lord, he specifically mentioned the persecutions which they were experiencing. Since a persecution of saints will take place during the beginning stages of the Tribulation, and since the Thessalonian Christians were being persecuted, this means that they had evidence which appeared to support the false claim that the Tribulation had begun. This is why they became so alarmed.

For these reasons, the pre-trib view is the only view of the Rapture which results in a consistent and reasonable interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

Another thing to notice in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the Antichrist is revealed. The Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation when he signs a seven-year treaty with Israel. So again, the Day of the Lord will begin when the Tribulation begins because the seven-year Tribulation is the "darkness and wrath" portion of the Day of the Lord.

 

[faithtransforms]

Hmmm....where do you ever read of two kingdoms?

Uh, how does what I said imply two kingdoms? He is reigning in His kingdom now, currently in heaven. But again that does not preclude a 1000 year reign (of the same kingdom) here on earth.

Well, if Christ is reigning now, why aren't you including that in the 1000 yrs? He brought in His kingdom when He came the first time...we are His body here on earth. Jesus even said His kingdom was not of this world. So.... how do you see Him reigning on earth for another separate Kingdom of 1000 yrs? Just asking....since most who claim He reigns in the future don't see Him reigning now.[/quote]

Glorydaz, I DON'T BELIEVE IN TWO KINGDOMS, just TWO SEPARATE LOCATIONS WHERE HE WILL REIGN! He is currently reigning in heaven and then when he returns, he will reign on earth for 1000 years (same kingdom, different location) and then he will give the kingdom over to the Father, that God may be all in all.

 

[jasoncran]

Look , Godilla, lol.

 

[faithtransforms]

Look out, little girl....you're arguing with a veteran. :yes :biglaugh

Of course the wrath comes after the tribulation. You might want to rethink that one.

Yeah, if you believe the 2nd death is the wrath. But there will be hell on earth for 7 years, being even greater the last 3 and a half. And I say take the bible literally whenever possible, always, unless it is clearly a symbol like the beast in Daniel. That is a far cry from saying I take everything in the bible literally.

 

[awaken]

Another verse to consider..Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these saying Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all..."

How will the Lord come with 10,000 of his saints if we are still here on earth? Where did the saints come from?

 

[faithtransforms]

In order to do those scriptures justice..you will have to know a lot of background about the letters to the Thess..

Consider that if Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians about a pre-trib Rapture, then it would be natural for them become alarmed when someone told them that the Tribulation had already begun. This information would have contradicted what Paul had taught them, so they would have urgently contacted Paul for a clarification. Since this false information was not what Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians, Paul would have defended his teachings when he wrote back to the Thessalonian Christians. This scenario is exactly what we see in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, which is why Paul said in that passage, "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

In addition, when the Thessalonian Christians were given a false report that the Day of the Lord (the seven-year Tribulation period) had begun, there was evidence which convinced them that this report might be true, which is why they became alarmed. For example, in the context of the end-times and the Tribulation period, Jesus said, "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death" (Matthew 24:3-16). There will be a great persecution of the saints in the early stages of the Tribulation, and notice that the Thessalonian Christians were experiencing persecutions:

"Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. ... With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." (2 Thessalonians 1:4-2:2)

Notice that when Paul began to comfort the Thessalonian Christians concerning the Day of the Lord, he specifically mentioned the persecutions which they were experiencing. Since a persecution of saints will take place during the beginning stages of the Tribulation, and since the Thessalonian Christians were being persecuted, this means that they had evidence which appeared to support the false claim that the Tribulation had begun. This is why they became so alarmed.

For these reasons, the pre-trib view is the only view of the Rapture which results in a consistent and reasonable interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

Another thing to notice in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the Antichrist is revealed. The Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation when he signs a seven-year treaty with Israel. So again, the Day of the Lord will begin when the Tribulation begins because the seven-year Tribulation is the "darkness and wrath" portion of the Day of the Lord.

2 thess 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand .
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

Notice Paul is equating the gathering together (rapture) with the Day of Christ. They are the same thing. And that will not happen until the anti-christ is revealed.

 

[faithtransforms]

It seems this has come down to FaithTransforms failing to understand how metaphors are used in Revelation (but doesn't condemn A-Mins) while watchman seems to believe we will perish for our understanding.

I don't believe I've seen an A-min condemn others for differences in scriptural understanding. I believe it's interesting to discuss, but not condemn.

FaithTransforms, as much as you don't understand how much I believe Revelation is written in metaphors and symbolism, I don't understand how your mind can exclude this interp.

You believe that in looking at all of heavenly hosts, there was counted a number of 144,000? He counted 144,000? You have completely dismissed the possibility that this could be a symbol of the tribes to the point that you find it incomprehensible to be otherwise. As much as I respect and admire your faith, I think you're holding to this number simply to remain constant to the 1000 year literalism. He wouldn't count 144,000! 12x12=144. 10 is a perfect number. 10x144=144,000. No one will condemn you or count your faith out if you at least acknowledge this!

I wouldn't be so hung up on this number if you haven't been completely dismissing that every number, reference and figure in Rev is to be taken literal.

I'm waiting, as have others in the past, looking up in the sky, wondering when Christ will turn off the lights, cast the stars down and bring His prophecy to fulfillment. THAT will be the end of the story! Every eye will see, every ear will hear...

I'm quite aware that a lot of revelation is symbolic. I just absolutely do not and can not believe that we are already in the tribulation. Makes absolutely no sense. Why would God even bother to have John write the book if it essentially means nothing?

 

[faithtransforms]

Revelation does not imply that ALL die. But something like about half the population (I will do the math later). As for the judgments, see Rev chapters 6, 8,9, 11, 16. The seal, trumpet and vial judgments. These are a little more profound (greatest understatement ever made) than our current times of natural disasters.

Really? The earth is harvested. The grapes are gathered into the barn and the vines are burned up.

The birds feast on all flesh...all that have survived every mountain being moved from it's place and all the other natural disasters...to say nothing of the blood being up to the bridles on the horses, and the birds eating all flesh.

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.....And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Oh, and yum yum...I'm wondering if this is the supper for the Bride. I'm sure glad you all like that literal interpretation of Revelation. Will it be barbeque?
[quote="Rev. 19:17-18":7doncr68]And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

[/quote:7doncr68]


Glorydaz, I will research these scriptures.

Your sarcasm is not appreciated in this post or the "bib" post. And you call ME immature?

 

[watchman F]

In order to do those scriptures justice..you will have to know a lot of background about the letters to the Thess..

Consider that if Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians about a pre-trib Rapture, then it would be natural for them become alarmed when someone told them that the Tribulation had already begun. This information would have contradicted what Paul had taught them, so they would have urgently contacted Paul for a clarification. Since this false information was not what Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians, Paul would have defended his teachings when he wrote back to the Thessalonian Christians. This scenario is exactly what we see in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, which is why Paul said in that passage, "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

In addition, when the Thessalonian Christians were given a false report that the Day of the Lord (the seven-year Tribulation period) had begun, there was evidence which convinced them that this report might be true, which is why they became alarmed. For example, in the context of the end-times and the Tribulation period, Jesus said, "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death" (Matthew 24:3-16). There will be a great persecution of the saints in the early stages of the Tribulation, and notice that the Thessalonian Christians were experiencing persecutions:

"Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. ... With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." (2 Thessalonians 1:4-2:2)

Notice that when Paul began to comfort the Thessalonian Christians concerning the Day of the Lord, he specifically mentioned the persecutions which they were experiencing. Since a persecution of saints will take place during the beginning stages of the Tribulation, and since the Thessalonian Christians were being persecuted, this means that they had evidence which appeared to support the false claim that the Tribulation had begun. This is why they became so alarmed.

For these reasons, the pre-trib view is the only view of the Rapture which results in a consistent and reasonable interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

Another thing to notice in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the Antichrist is revealed. The Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation when he signs a seven-year treaty with Israel. So again, the Day of the Lord will begin when the Tribulation begins because the seven-year Tribulation is the "darkness and wrath" portion of the Day of the Lord.

2 thess 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand .
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

Notice Paul is equating the gathering together (rapture) with the Day of Christ. They are the same thing. And that will not happen until the anti-christ is revealed.

Excellent ft, you are right on the mark keep up the good work.