HOLY SPIRIT convicts of what?

[reba]

What ever is the problem of having different views and showing love one to another?

Reading some of these posts... We are not as opposed to each other as one might think. Phrasing the message of the passage slightly different is not against the Scriptures. Does God speak to us all exactly alike? Are we all the of the same 'age' in Him. Have we all the same exact trials? Are the Blessings the same for each of us?

Please honor your word to abide by the ToS and in that be kind to one another.....

Who among us has the beam and who has the splinter?

This is general warning to all members..

 

[Mitspa]

Wow. I only read the last couple pages. I'm kinda afraid to jump in. I can kind of see both sides of this, having been taught that our conscience is the Holy Spirit talking to us (convicting us), and have read that we are free of sin and that the Holy Spirit is the comforter.

Sometimes I feel free from sin. Sometimes I feel convicted. Perhaps this is something I should bring up in Bible study. I think most times people tend to be a little more amicable in person.

(Where's EJJ on this? Seems like The Spirit is strong in him.)

Edward, the effect of the Holy Spirit on the conscience is to bear witness to who we are In Christ. 2 Cor 3 is a very important chapter to the understanding of the Holy Spirits ministry. For the Spirits ministry is the ministry of righteousness. In righteousness we behold the glory of Christ are changed from glory to glory.
When you or I are aware of Christ love, we in turn love others. When we see His honesty we walk in honesty etc..
For the Spirit will empower the "divine nature" as we behold Christ.
Guilt and shame are products of the falling nature, look at Adam. Now those those have an appearance of humility and religion makes great use of such things, just as the pharisees did. But as Paul wrote these things are of no value against the flesh. Only ONE THING changes a mans heart? That is to BEHOLD Christ Jesus and His beauty, in righteousness and in spirit.
Now some do not think that is practical or has much value? Consider that Peter became as He was as he walk upon the water, when we took his eyes off the Lord he sank. Consider Mary and the Lord said to Martha ONE THING IS NEEDED and Mary has chosen that good part. Consider John wrote that "as He is so are we in this world" The gospel is as simple as seeing Christ in His righteousness from faith to faith.
I see His love in you edward, His commandment is that we love as He loves us. This is all the laws of God. The simplicty of Christ. No one can keep this law unless they are in a constant and sure condition of righteousness. Who can love with Gods Love unless they have that love being shed abroad in their hearts, by the Holy Spirit? This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not to bring us into bondage, shame and fear.

When one walks in righteousness, peace, joy and love in the Holy Spirit, they need no law but they are a law unto themselves. Its called the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. And when one who walks in these things, strays from these things their own conscience convicts them and it is the Holy Spirit that is a witness that Christ "will never leave nor forsake them" Trust the Word of God, if tradition can not be proved in scripture, that tradition is wrong.

 

[cupid dave]

I agree. But I believe that little voice in my head that says you are doing wrong, is the spirit.

... the spirit of Truth,... right?

 

[Mitspa]

... the spirit of Truth,... right?

There is a truth about the flesh, "i know nothing good lives in my flesh" and there is a truth about who we are in Christ. "in Him we have no sin and we cannot sin. So which "truth" is the Holy Spirit sent to bare witness too? The Spirit and the Blood agree as one. So I know many have opinions but the Word of God is truth. If one has been taught this false doctrine of" conviction of sin" they most likely do "think" that their conscience is the Holy Spirits conviction. But the scriptures declare that is not true!
So show me the scripture where a "believer" is convicted of sin? you can not find it, because its a false teaching.

Satans name means "accuser" do you not think he brought this false doctrine into the church?

 

[ezra]

I see exactly what you are saying, Mitspa. That is a very very powerful chapter, albeit short. (2 Corinthians 3)

2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts./ (NIV)

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.../ (NIV)

Like I said, at times I feel this, other times I do not. (interestingly, you are bold, and there is very much truth in your words, always).
I have found that when I begin thinking for myself in the flesh, That is when I feel fear about things. When I look only to the Lord (as a humble little child!) that is when I feel the freedom of the Spirit and the boldness which comes with walking hand in hand with Jesus. In my weakness is He made strong.

It must be pride that makes men want to think for themselves and this must quench the Spirit. The moment Peter took his eyes from the Lord, he began to sink. Perhaps he thought the he could walk on water. (look at ME, look at ME) Pride. There is a good lesson for us here. As I look back upon my own experiences, I can see that what you are saying is the truth and all sorts of scriptures are popping into my head that back this up. The Lord is doing a good work through you brother. I have to disagree with ezra at this point that you are being a know it all. You're simply being bold in the Spirit of truth.

ezra, I'm not disagreeing with everything you say so please take no offense at my words. I'm just seeing the truth in Mitspas words and that the Spirit is strong in him; my previous experiences and knowledge of the Lord and scriptures are ringing the bell of truth to me.

your free to follow who ever you want... when a person comes out and ACCUSES of posting false doctrine ..then that becomes JUDGEMENT . disagree is fine. but i draw the line on being judged.. what you hold as truth may not be the same as me.............. thats my entire point..

 

[eddif]

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Looks a lot like
John 16:8-9
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Are we still trying to save the world through what Jesus did? I thought we were. I thought if Jesus were lifted up he would draw all men to himself.

Right before Jesus came John the Baptist taught sin and repentance. Jesus taught repentance. I thought we teach the world of sin and repentance.

Making the world aware of sin is not a negative thing. Making the world aware of sin is the only way to get repentance out of folks. John the Baptist is part of the love of God (it just happens to be the fear side of Godly love).

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Looks a lot like

John 16:10
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

So if Jesus is gone, he must use belivers to do the work he did, and empowers us through the Holy Spirit.

Belivers came to be belivers by confessing sin and accepting the work of Jesus (in the world but not off the world). The world is going to get saved the same way. The Gospel Message was started by Jesus when he was on the earth, but now that he is gone that message has to be delivered by Christians empowered by the Holy Spirit. So now, you and I now share this message of righteousness with the world. The Holy Spirit came to get the job done using Christians.

Never forget we all were once sinners. We got saved, and our job is to complete the work of Jesus now that we do not physically see Jesus here. Jesus lives in us though. Holy Spirit use me to tell how salvation comes through continual intercession from Jesus to the Father.


The John 3 section does not mention Satan being overcome as such. The Christian has to remind himself ot Satan being overcome so he will have power to go out against the little minor problems of life hurled at us by satan. The world has to be informed that satan has been defeated too. I am in the world, but not of the world. I want others that are in the world and of the world to be saved and become as Christians (then they will be in the world, but not of the world).

John 16:11
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I remind myself of this fact. I want to convince the world of this fact. A new birth will set this fact in the worst sinners mind. Holy Spirit work on the worldly minds. Thank you Holy Spirit you convinced me of sin, righteousness and judgement, and now use me to convince the world of the wonderful redemptive work of Jesus.

We have to give ourselves by the power of Holy Spirit.

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

eddif that is a good post, but it does not adress the issue we have been in debate about? The work of the Holy Spirit towards the believer is a whole world and crucified Christ, apart from that of a unbeliever and the judgment of satan.

The doctrine that the Holy Spirit "convicts" a "believer" of sin, is not found at all in scripture. What we do find is the satan "accuses" the saints of God. I doubt that anyone who cannot dicern between these two spirits can find there way into to the truth of the gospel.

Justified by His Blood, is attacked by the "accusing" spirit. This is what many are teaching and are in fact bringing believers in a "spirit of bondage again to fear" This false doctrine has brought the church into such a state of weakness and a powerless condition, that few even dare to believe the promises of God.

 

[eddif]

eddif that is a good post, but it does not adress the issue we have been in debate about? The work of the Holy Spirit towards the believer is a whole world and crucified Christ, apart from that of a unbeliever and the judgment of satan.

The doctrine that the Holy Spirit "convicts" a "believer" of sin, is not found at all in scripture. What we do find is the satan "accuses" the saints of God. I doubt that anyone who cannot dicern between these two spirits can find there way into to the truth of the gospel.

Justified by His Blood, is attacked by the "accusing" spirit. This is what many are teaching and are in fact bringing believers in a "spirit of bondage again to fear" This false doctrine has brought the church into such a state of weakness and a powerless condition, that few even dare to believe the promises of God.

Your. scripture IMHO does send us to conversations beyond what you seem to want to state. I am as bad as anyone and springboard from scriptures. I admit I use your John 16 passage. IMHO I have not strayed far from the passage meaning. Possibly another scripture might be better used to make the point you want to make. As long as we use your first scripture and ideas, you will probably have folks that use that scripture when making comments.

When I read convince the world of three things I think of it that way. To me the scripture choice directs the conversation direction. I hear what you are saying, but I still seem to not get the message directed to the world, Christians,and satan. I do not try and convince satan of anything (i may state his condition (?). I do convince the world of satan's judgement.

Regretfully you are right about Christians not knowing who they are in their inner man. There are scriptures that state that fact. Why not choose those scriptures to prove your points.
I Peter 1:23
May work, for the Word made flesh is alive forevermore.

I just think the John 16 passage is written to the world. Maybe I am choking on nothing, but a simple use of other scriptures might help.

eddif

 

[eddif]

I realize you used other verses before, and this may be one you used.

God works in us to do of his pleasure and I do not know if there is a scripture that says Holy Spirit does exactly what you want to say. Just John 16 IMHO is directed to the world.

I will look for a scripture that says Holy Spirit convicts Christians of righteousness. I understand that Holy Spirit is in charge of the Ephesians passage below, but it comes out of the writers spirit without a direct statement about Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:5
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
--plus more verses--
This is to a Christian who went through the John 16 passage in the past.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Colossians 2:15
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Now this is one that is to saved folks and says what I think you want.

I do not feel I have to merge this Colossians passage with the John 16 passage. The Colossians passage I would show to a Christian. The John passage I would show to a lost person. John 3:16 would be for the world. The bible says rightly dividing the Word of God and does not say divining the Word of God. If I wish to talk about discipline, I hunt the discipline scriptures / passages. Communion gets a little more complex with the Jewis part included. Everyone is saved by the works of Jesus though.

eddif

 

[eddif]

God's love valentine to the World John 16:7-11
God's love valentine to the Church Colossians 2:13-15
Peter to the Jews (by compulsion to gentiles)
Paul to the Gentiles (by loving his people to the Jews and by revelation willingly to the gentiles).
Compassion to some
Fear to others (wanting both to be saved)
Understanding those who will not eat food offered to idol
Understanding those who eat all food in faith
Males, Females. bond, free
Strong
Weak
etc. All things to all people TULIP folks, Armenian folks, whosoever will may come.

I wonder what my hangups are? LOL OR TEARS? Ask me and I will tell you I am ok. Ask folks on this site and I might be surprised at all the changes I need to make.

The jerk from Mississippi
eddif

 

[Mitspa]

eddif, I have this whole thread with many different scriptures that I have used to prove this doctrine of the "accusing spirit" is not biblical. I need not look to less evident scripture because much of what the scriptures they say very clear. No one has in any way brought any scripture forward that gives any credit to this doctrine of bondage, that so many seem to want to defend, but cannot. The reason you are holding on to John and trying to make it say something that is clearly does not say? Is because this is the only scripture that in any way says the Holy Spirits convicts anyone of sin. Now I do not believe that anyone "really" can read this scripture in context and not see what it is saying? I do believe many have been taught and have taught others this nonsense for so long that they want to believe in the "accusing spirit" doctrine.

 

[Mitspa]

I see exactly what you are saying, Mitspa. That is a very very powerful chapter, albeit short. (2 Corinthians 3)

2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts./ (NIV)

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.../ (NIV)

Like I said, at times I feel this, other times I do not. (interestingly, you are bold, and there is very much truth in your words, always).
I have found that when I begin thinking for myself in the flesh, That is when I feel fear about things. When I look only to the Lord (as a humble little child!) that is when I feel the freedom of the Spirit and the boldness which comes with walking hand in hand with Jesus. In my weakness is He made strong.

It must be pride that makes men want to think for themselves and this must quench the Spirit. The moment Peter took his eyes from the Lord, he began to sink. Perhaps he thought the he could walk on water. (look at ME, look at ME) Pride. There is a good lesson for us here. As I look back upon my own experiences, I can see that what you are saying is the truth and all sorts of scriptures are popping into my head that back this up. The Lord is doing a good work through you brother. I have to disagree with ezra at this point that you are being a know it all. You're simply being bold in the Spirit of truth.

ezra, I'm not disagreeing with everything you say so please take no offense at my words. I'm just seeing the truth in Mitspas words and that the Spirit is strong in him; my previous experiences and knowledge of the Lord and scriptures are ringing the bell of truth to me.

Thank you edward. Justified freely by His Grace does not change when we mess up, but our own conscience witnesses against our errors. It is the Holy Spirit that confirms His Love for us when we are so sure we do not deserve it. But the truth is we never did deserve it, even at our very best. He loves us because He is love, we are "righteous" by faith in Him. How much do we need the conviction of righteousness?

 

[Mitspa]

1Jn 5:7 (ISV)

For there are three witnesses-
1Jn 5:8


the Spirit, the water, and the blood-and these three are one.
1Jn 5:9

If we accept human testimony, God's testimony is greater, because it is the testimony of God and because he has testified about his Son.
1Jn 5:10

The person who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in himself. The person who does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony that God has given about his Son.
1Jn 5:11

This is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is found in his Son.

1Jn 5:8 (kjv)


And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

How can we be clean by His Blood and the Holy Spirit witness against the Blood?

NO! the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of righteousness!

Be sober, be vigilant because your "adversary" the "devil" goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

adversary- legal opponent, one who stands against your legal rights.
devil- "diabolos" one who accuses, one who cast stones or fiery darts.

How did Christ disarm satan? He nailed the law that was contrary to us and was against us, to His Cross.

If one was to search out this doctrine of "the accusing spirit" you will find that they who teach these false doctrines also teach parts and forms of the law.

These false doctrines work together against the truth of the gospel, against the Blood and work of Christ Jesus.

Run and flee from such doctrines, have no fellowship with such darkness.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes the doctrine of "righteous by works after being born again" can be devastating. The people I knew and know that believe this way do one of two things. They either justifiy themselves by believing God winks at some types of sin but not others or they believe the scripture in James that says ..
James 2:10

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 For whoever keeps the whole [a]law and yet (A)stumbles in one point, he has become (B)guilty of all.

and they live a life of fear because in their doctrine they are under the law. I know a lovely, elderly Christian man, an elder in the church that said in Bible study that he repents right away because he is afraid to leave it until his regular pray time to ask forgiveness because he might forget or maybe die. He's not of the winker family. This doctrine teaches earning righteousness, not gift of righteousness. It is a doctrine of fear.
The Holy Spirit convinces us first of Jesus righteousness and the Word says we (our spiritual being) are righteous in Him, this is our confidence, our hope that we can live by faith. The Law of liberty.
I believe that Eph 2:8 should never be quoted without v9. Verse 9 completes the thought and intent of the statement. I truly wish that the translators had not split it into two verses, it is too easy for the deception of works salvation to accure.

 

[Mitspa]

Good stuff, In righteousness you shall be established and great shall be your peace! Every tongue that rises in judgment against you, you shall condemn.

 

[Mitspa]

Again! the issue of Sin is always because a believer is walking in the "flesh" Paul always pointed to the Spirit as the solution to any sin problem!

Now all you do is bring up the same point, and never consider the answer to the point? Why is that?

"Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"

Isa 54:13

And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Isa 54:14

In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
Isa 54:15

Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
Isa 54:16

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

It is written that those who are children are not able to handle the strong meat, the Word of righteousness.
All the kingdom of God is based upon the righteousness of faith in Christ. Any doctrine that attempts to take the believer out of the condition is false doctrine. The doctrine of the "accusing spirit" is so contrary to word of righteousness that it amazes me that any would attempt to defend such doctrine.
In 2 Cor 3, it is written that the ministry of the Spirit is the ministry of Righteousness. In Chapter 4 it tells us why some cannot see this ministry. Blinded by the law of moses and the god of this world they cannot see the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know a lovely, elderly Christian man, an elder in the church that said in Bible study that he repents right away because he is afraid to leave it until his regular pray time to ask forgiveness because he might forget or maybe die.

The only sin that can do that is the sin that represents the decision to abandon reliance on Christ's blood. Sinning because you are weak, or ignorant, but still being in complete reliance on the blood of Christ and the hope to come does not represent that sin.

 

[Deborah13]

The only sin that can do that is the sin that represents the decision to abandon reliance on Christ's blood. Sinning because you are weak, or ignorant, but still being in complete reliance on the blood of Christ and the hope to come does not represent that sin.

I agree. However, in a church (denomination in this case) their salvation is determined by grace + faith + works. Righteousness is earned. So in their view point there is no security unless you are of the Winker family and then if you were to die with some unrepented sin God would still accept you because by grading on a curve say a 1-10 your sin was only a 2 but if it were too high then He wouldn't.

 

[Deborah13]

..

Hi ezra, I just wanted to post this as it gives what I consider to be well established authority to the teaching of the Holy Spirit convincing (convicting) us of Christ's righteousness and our righteousness in Him. I don't think we are far apart we just think of it differently when the Holy Spirit works with/on us.
This is a quote from the Matthew Henry Commentary which I'm sure you know is a long standing, well accepted Bible study tool.

First, The Spirit shall convince men of this righteousness. Having by convictions of sin shown them their need of a righteousness, lest this should drive them to despair he will show them where it is to be had, and how they may, upon their believing, be acquitted from guilt, and accepted as righteous in God’s sight. It was hard to convince those of this righteousness that went about to establish their own (Rom. 10:3), but the Spirit will do it. Secondly, Christ’s ascension is the great argument proper to convince men of this righteousness: I go to the Father, and, as an evidence of my welcome with him, you shall see me no more. If Christ had left any part of his undertaking unfinished, he had been sent back again; but now that we are sure he is at the right hand of God, we are sure of being justified through him.

It's much longer in the MH commentary and can be found at biblegateway in the resources for that verse.
Blessing, Deb