[_ Old Earth _] Homosexuality and nature

[Evointrinsic]

This is going to be an interesting topic, i can feel it already!

I would pleasantly like to say that Homosexuality is a natural occurrence.

ah ah ah! don't start typing away yet, please read on...

There has been around 1500 species that have portrayed homosexual behavior. Over 500 of those species are well documented cases. Not only that but there's quite a lot of species that are only females, these species can be found in Insects, Crustaceans, Snails and flatworms, Reptiles, Sharks, Birds, Mammals and more classes. In some species homosexual behaviors can exist within 60%-80% of the population.

I you'd like specific species, head here for:

Mammals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Birds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Fish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior#Fish

Reptiles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior#Reptiles

Amphibians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior#Amphibians

Insects and other invertebrates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...xual_behavior#Insects_and_other_invertebrates

In minor relation, The vast majority of reef fish change sex at some time during their life span and continue to breed.

Now, don't get me wrong with this information. I am not saying that whatever other animals do, humans do. That is not what I am trying to portray. I am however showing that homosexuality is a natural occurrence in thousands of species.

When it comes down to the fundamentally religious view of homosexuality, it is taught as an "abomination". This is where the real issues begin. Obviously religion is a large part of today's society, and as with anything that is a large part of today's society, it can be misused.

There is a very interesting documentary out there called "For the Bible Tells Me So" that touches up on this aspect of the issues I'm referring to that i beg you to watch. The movie itself is not meant to belittle your faith or make fun of Christianity or even say that Christianity is wrong. It does, however, focus on what people aren't. Namely what the bible really says about homosexuality.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Reverend Steven Kindle discusses this by saying "If you read the bible on a face value level, that really disregards several very important things." and continues "The first one is a few versus before that, Moses teaches in Leviticus that it is an abomination to eat shrimp." Kindle also says "It is an abomination to eat a rabbit"

Kindle talks about the word abomination within the bible by saying "When it comes to the word 'abomination' within the bible, it is always used to address a ritual wrong." In other words, it's against [the authors' cultural] tradition or against their rituals. Kindle continues "It never is used to refer to something innately immoral. Eating pork was not innately immoral... but it was an abomination, because it was a violation of a ritual requirement."

This is all quoted about 20 minutes into the documentary I talked about just a moment ago.

As for if it's a choice or not, (the video also goes into that as well) Personally, i can not see how it could be a choice at all. (i'm sure you've heard this line) I never chose to be heterosexual, I may be able to suppress my heterosexuality if i really really wanted to, but I'd still be attracted to women in the end. My gay friends all say the same thing, they never made a choice, they were simply attracted to the same sex.

So i am curious to know if anyone on this forum still thinks of homosexuals (or homosexual behaviors) as an abomination (in this age's description of it) or not?

 

[jwu]

As for if it's a choice or not, (the video also goes into that as well) Personally, i can not see how it could be a choice at all. (i'm sure you've heard this line) I never chose to be heterosexual, I may be able to suppress my heterosexuality if i really really wanted to, but I'd still be attracted to women in the end. My gay friends all say the same thing, they never made a choice, they were simply attracted to the same sex.

i've often wondered how some people can say that even being attracted to members of the same sex were a choice - unless they are latent bisexuals themselves, thus being able to get aroused by members of the same sex.

 

[jasoncran]

As for if it's a choice or not, (the video also goes into that as well) Personally, i can not see how it could be a choice at all. (i'm sure you've heard this line) I never chose to be heterosexual, I may be able to suppress my heterosexuality if i really really wanted to, but I'd still be attracted to women in the end. My gay friends all say the same thing, they never made a choice, they were simply attracted to the same sex.

i've often wondered how some people can say that even being attracted to members of the same sex were a choice - unless they are latent bisexuals themselves, thus being able to get aroused by members of the same sex.

so we cant help but sin, eh? i sorry but i was bi, and the lord heals us from this. if the lord made us this way then why would condemn it?
i dont care where an animal does it. or space alien. its sin and can be healed and changed from it.

 

[jasoncran]

evo you are missing the point as that pro -gay proganda you watched did as well.

tie in romans 1:26 and then comment, its more then a rituallistic problem. its worthy of death! so is all sin, but that stops that ritualistic problem.

 

[jasoncran]

As for if it's a choice or not, (the video also goes into that as well) Personally, i can not see how it could be a choice at all. (i'm sure you've heard this line) I never chose to be heterosexual, I may be able to suppress my heterosexuality if i really really wanted to, but I'd still be attracted to women in the end. My gay friends all say the same thing, they never made a choice, they were simply attracted to the same sex.

i've often wondered how some people can say that even being attracted to members of the same sex were a choice - unless they are latent bisexuals themselves, thus being able to get aroused by members of the same sex.

read this article and take note that its state that some can change spontaneously. to wit i did.

http://www.narth.com/docs/throckarticle.html

but first read the about area of the site as they arent a religious group.

 

[Barbarian]

Sexual orientation is "flexible?"

Maybe for him. Not for me, thank you.

 

[jasoncran]

Sexual orientation is "flexible?"

Maybe for him. Not for me, thank you.

i disagree, as well i was bisexual, that doenst mean that i can go back as the lord delivered me. i take that to mean that we can change if the lord empowers us.

i wanted men, now i dont, i dont have to like nor desire men.

 

[Barbarian]

That's interesting; I've asked a lot of people of they decided on a sexual orientation or had any choice in it. The only person before you who said they did, had also been bisexual.

 

[David505]

Thanks Evointrinsic,

I once had a Border Collie who’d try to have sex with the kitchen table once in a while. Can we construe that behavior as a springboard for discussion of humankind’s reproductive affairs? I don’t think so, because human beings are not dogs.

Here’s my “two cents†on the topic:

Abomination: Physical, or esthetic, or moral loathing, or aversion.
Loathing: Extreme disgust.
Aversion: Antipathy

I can see why God would “loathe†homosexuality insofar as He regards us as His children who are subject to His behavioral guidelines.

While humans may at times regard non-reproductive sexual experimentation as titillating, I don’t see how such titillation conveys a selective advantage among humans from an evolutionist’s perspective. So, I would think that humans who desire to propagate humankind would be “averse†to such behavior.

FYI: I like your often-insightful commentary, and agree, “This is going to be an interesting topic.â€

Here’s a link to “abomination†in the Bible:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 8441&t=KJV

 

[Evointrinsic]

Here's an interesting video that may help you out.

[youtube:1wd5nlk7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE[/youtube:1wd5nlk7]

If you look around 3:00 until the end of the film, the narrator offers a few reasons as to why homosexual behavior may exist.

Unfortunately the film doesn't seem to get into homosexuality with life long partners in great detail. Another unfortunate thing is that there isn't a conclusive study as to why homosexuality exists at all, as of yet. But this topic isn't designed to bring that information forth, moreover to show how Homosexuality is a natural act.

It does appear, to me at least, that the reason we have homosexuals is merely because of our brains. As far as we know so far, we are the beings on this planet with the most complex and advanced brains. The more complex and advanced our brains are/become, the more likely some part of the brain may be accidentally damaged or have a mutation that may cause homosexuality. With this thought in mind, it can be seen that, within a vast population, a minority can arise through mutation. In this case we have homosexuality. If you understand natural selection, then you'll understand how Homosexuality should end with that individual that is homosexual (because he/she will most likely not reproduce). On the other hand, It is also a possibility that this Homosexual trait can be passed down through reproduction if it's because of a certain few genes that cancel out or "mess up" the programing that says "you will be attracted to ____", to put it very simply. It may not be necessary for the survival of this being, it may simply be because of an accidental double dosage of a particular gene. Alas we can see how it is possible for Homosexuality to arise, even through evolution.

 

[jwu]

As for if it's a choice or not, (the video also goes into that as well) Personally, i can not see how it could be a choice at all. (i'm sure you've heard this line) I never chose to be heterosexual, I may be able to suppress my heterosexuality if i really really wanted to, but I'd still be attracted to women in the end. My gay friends all say the same thing, they never made a choice, they were simply attracted to the same sex.

i've often wondered how some people can say that even being attracted to members of the same sex were a choice - unless they are latent bisexuals themselves, thus being able to get aroused by members of the same sex.

read this article and take note that its state that some can change spontaneously. to wit i did.

http://www.narth.com/docs/throckarticle.html

That's nice but misses the point. Even if we assume that sexual orientation were flexible to some degree, how could a person who is 100% straight claim that one can choose to be attracted to the same sex? To a 100% straight person that should be absolutely impossible, there should be no way to get sexually attracted to members of the same sex at all. So how could a 100%straight person make such a statement?

but first read the about area of the site as they arent a religious group.

I think they absolutely are! They don't openly talk about it, but i bet almost all of its members are deeply religious, and motivated by religion.

Just navigate its site: News Watch -> Theological issues. That's quite a clue...

 

[Evointrinsic]

Not to mention this site, which links articles that show NARTH using "Bad Science" (incorrect, false accusations, false information and so on)
http://holybulliesandheadlessmonste.../rekers-fallout-narth-purge-and-mccollum.html

This video shows that NARTH has distorted actual research.
[youtube:1elo27ua]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64A2HrvYdYQ[/youtube:1elo27ua]

In this link NARTH is shown to distort another article AND portrays themselves as racists as well as simply ignorant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_&_Therapy_of_Homosexuality#Criticism

A Former Client Visits NARTH to Speak Out About the Dangers of Conversion Therapy
http://www.soulforce.org/article/1279

George Alan Rekers was once listed on NARTH's website as an advisor, but this is no longer true as of June 2010. Rekers has testified in court that he believes homosexuality is a sin. The ACLU has asserted that his personal beliefs regarding homosexuality interfere with his being able to give an unbiased professional opinion on LGBT topics, including gay adoption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...&_Therapy_of_Homosexuality#George_Alan_Rekers

George Alan Rekers was caught with a male prostitute as well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Alan_Rekers#.22Rent_boy.22_allegations

NARTH is also talked about within the movie "For The Bible Tells Me So" that I talked about in the first post. You can find more information about them them there near the end of the film.

 

[jasoncran]

so i must be lying then as i did change, and the bible that you, jwu claim to follow is written by a bigot.
if the lord wanted men with woman he wouldnt condemn that stuff.

i believe the bible over men. sorry.

while its possible for men or women to born gay , doesn it not say that he that is born agian is a new creature? if that is lie too you jwu?

so if a gay cant help be gay, why then is alcoholic not told that he cant help it, or the clepto mainaic.
or effort to let them stay the same. i guess that lbgt progranda is the truth, my bad. they never pushed that the gay gene was around. nope.
so being born to a dispostion to do sin, makes it ok? opps i cant help that .. sorry God you made me to sin.

i'm sure that i can use that at the white throne judgement., not!

 

[Evointrinsic]

I believe the bible over men

That's an interesting statement considering the bible was written by men.

so if a gay cant help be gay, why then is alcoholic not told that he cant help it, or the clepto mainaic.
or effort to let them stay the same.

Homosexuality is not an addiction. Alcoholics aren't born to crave alcohol, they are introduced to alcohol, then they become alcoholics.

Kleptomania is also edging closer to addictive and mood disorders as well as usually manifesting during puberty, This condition isn't born with the individual.

Out of no disrespect Jason, you need to reread the comments you leave, I found that one quite difficult to read because of the errors. I think your thinking faster than your typing ;)

 

[jasoncran]

I believe the bible over men

That's an interesting statement considering the bible was written by men.ah but the lord moved them.

[quote:2mvgyavy]so if a gay cant help be gay, why then is alcoholic not told that he cant help it, or the clepto mainaic.
or effort to let them stay the same.

[/quote:2mvgyavy]

Homosexuality is not an addiction. Alcoholics aren't born to crave alcohol, they are introduced to alcohol, then they become alcoholics. lol, you dont know! the lies you have been feed. when one is bi. he has the nature of both, they like of the other or same sex doenst die in a relationship. when i was in gay relationship, i still wanted women. just choose not to act. that's it.if one wants to be truly hetero and not act on both nor sin, then one has to stop the love or lust for both sexes(and the homosexualy nature) must end. as that if its not taken by the lord will be a thorn or acted on.on the hetero side one has to learn to control it, but not stop the desire for the hetero.

until the 70's and by a consensus vote that was 52-48% agianst homosexuality as a disease was the conditions changed. so the other 48% of that vote after that vote still accepted and practice that the homosexuality condition was a disease.

 

[Evointrinsic]

lol, you dont know! the lies you have been feed. when one is bi. he has the nature of both, they like of the other or same sex doenst die in a relationship. when i was in gay relationship, i still wanted women. just choose not to act. that's it.if one wants to be truly hetero and not act on both nor sin, then one has to stop the love or lust for both sexes(and the homosexualy nature) must end. as that if its not taken by the lord will be a thorn or acted on.on the hetero side one has to learn to control it, but not stop the desire for the hetero.

until the 70's and by a consensus vote that was 52-48% agianst homosexuality as a disease was the conditions changed. so the other 48% of that vote after that vote still accepted and practice that the homosexuality condition was a disease.

Yes, you are describing bisexuality, not homosexuality. As you know - in bisexuality - an individual feels attraction to both sex's. In homosexuality there is absolutely no attraction to the opposite sex. I've had great conversations with my (strictly) gay friends that find any sexual activity with the opposite sex absolutely disgusting, from birth mind you. They don't hold themselves back from the opposite sex because it's revolting to them. It's the same thing for Heterosexuality although with the same sex.

You still were attracted to women while you were in a relationship with a man because your bisexual, not homosexual. You may have been able to suppress your attraction to one sex or another, but ultimately your natural self was attracted to both sexes, do you not agree?

 

[jasoncran]

lol, you dont know! the lies you have been feed. when one is bi. he has the nature of both, they like of the other or same sex doenst die in a relationship. when i was in gay relationship, i still wanted women. just choose not to act. that's it.if one wants to be truly hetero and not act on both nor sin, then one has to stop the love or lust for both sexes(and the homosexualy nature) must end. as that if its not taken by the lord will be a thorn or acted on.on the hetero side one has to learn to control it, but not stop the desire for the hetero.

until the 70's and by a consensus vote that was 52-48% agianst homosexuality as a disease was the conditions changed. so the other 48% of that vote after that vote still accepted and practice that the homosexuality condition was a disease.

Yes, you are describing bisexuality, not homosexuality. As you know - in bisexuality - an individual feels attraction to both sex's. In homosexuality there is absolutely no attraction to the opposite sex. I've had great conversations with my (strictly) gay friends that find any sexual activity with the opposite sex absolutely disgusting, from birth mind you. They don't hold themselves back from the opposite sex because it's revolting to them. It's the same thing for Heterosexuality although with the same sex.

You still were attracted to women while you were in a relationship with a man because your bisexual, not homosexual. You may have been able to suppress your attraction to one sex or another, but ultimately your natural self was attracted to both sexes, do you not agree?

yes,but the point is the DESIRe for men is for me is gone! i dont want them do me the idea male sex is repulsive, before it was liked. not the idea sickend me.
so change is possible as even now i dont want a man. i know whats what in the lbgt. you look on the outside i have been there. big difference.

 

[jasoncran]

ah, but i know men who were gay since teenagers and now are married and have kids. one is on this forum,another is hetero and was last heard of engaged.

so i do know that change is possible as both these men struggled with the desire for men. but the lord did deliver them.

 

[Crying Rock]

ah, but i know men who were gay since teenagers and now are married and have kids. one is on this forum,another is hetero and was last heard of engaged.

so i do know that change is possible as both these men struggled with the desire for men. but the lord did deliver them.

Thanks for your testimony, Jason.

That took a lot of courage.

Hat's off to you.

 

[jasoncran]

ah, but i know men who were gay since teenagers and now are married and have kids. one is on this forum,another is hetero and was last heard of engaged.

so i do know that change is possible as both these men struggled with the desire for men. but the lord did deliver them.

Thanks for your testimony, Jason.

That took a lot of courage.

Hat's off to you.

thanks, i though you knew that i was bi. i have never hidden that from this site, and mainly here is where i post about it or talk about it.. the other man has asked that he remain anonymous. we have talked via the phone. i honor that. if he wishes he will post his story.