[_ Old Earth _] Homosexuality and nature

[Tina]

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So the bible says that homosexuality is wrong? Could you list all the verses in which it does say this?

The verses have been listed earlier on in this same thread.
Either you chose to ignore them or simply don't understand scriptures ....


Not only do these verses say that homosexuality is wrong and sinful, but it also goes on to say that one who persists in living a gay lifestyle risks losing his salvation !


Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men , committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Psychology of prayer and forgiveness
http://www.sciencecodex.com/prayer_increases_forgiveness

The Great Prayer Experiment
http://www.amazon.ca/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004

Prayer for health (1/3rd the way down the page)
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-04-05/

Psychological effects with prayer from a theological view
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0602&article=060265

An additive to Prayer on health
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/power_of_prayer/
A very nicely detailed description between Prayer, psychology and how we can test the two.
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/prayer_a_neurological_inquiry/

Potential negative psychological effects of Prayer
http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/prayer_wars/

Would you like more articles to read?

 

[Tina]

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Not interested in reading any theories and philosophies from infidels, skeptics, atheists, pagan's or secular points of view. ...

But thanks for trying anyway .... If you have anything that you think might interest us from Christian viewpoint, bring them on .... I'd be glad to entertain you ...

 

[Evointrinsic]

Ah yes, my apologies, I forgot to address each one of these. So quick to accuse, it may seem?

I'll let Reverend Jimmy Creech answer this (you can also see this within the movie For The Bible Tells Me So)

When Paul uses the term Natural or Unnatural, he's really meaning what is customary or uncustomary. It wasn't customary for men to have sex with men in the Jewish context, but he saw it in the Greek world, and so he saw that as evidence of worshiping the wrong god.

He goes on to say

The Bible really doesn't deal with homosexuality because it has no concept of it. There were no Greek words, no Aramaic words, no Hebrew words for these concepts of human sexuality. There for the few references that have been lifted up, out of the bible, to be used in religious teachings to condemn homosexuality, really are inappropriate.

 

[Evointrinsic]

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Not interested in reading any theories and philosophies from infidels, skeptics, atheists, pagan's or secular points of view. ...

But thanks for trying anyway .... If you have anything that you think might interest us from Christian viewpoint, bring them on .... I'd be glad to entertain you ...

Actually, ALL of the major tests that were made within those articles are provided by Theists. Not only that, but i even stated in the title of one of them... and I repeat

Psychological effects with prayer from a theological view

So before you simply disagree with everything I have to say, you might want to have the decency to simply read the titles of these articles and who they are by before you publicly embarrass yourself again ;)

EDIT: Just as another additive to this post. The tests that were produced (by theists, in case you forgot already) aren't theories or philosophies, they are sole conclusions over the facts that arose out of those tests. There's quite a difference between that and a philosophy or theory.

EDIT AGAIN: Forgot to mention also, that the majority of these Major tests that I listed kindly for you were funded by churches... Would you like more information? or will that suffice your need for a "Christian viewpoint"?

 

[Tina]

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I'll let Reverend Jimmy Creech answer this (you can also see this within the movie For The Bible Tells Me So)

Reverend Jimmy Creech -- you mean the minister who was defrocked from the United Methodist Church for performing a same sex union, and who later joined Soulforce as the Chairperson of the Board of Directors --- Soulforce being an interfaith network of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender (GLBT) individuals and their family, friends, and allies, committed to applying the principles of nonviolent resistance as taught by Gandhi and King to the liberation of sexual and gender minorities.


http://www.soulforce.org/article/579


NICE TRY !!!

 

[Evointrinsic]

The really strange thing is that you make nonviolent resistance sound like it's a bad thing?

I really don't understand how this:

When Paul uses the term Natural or Unnatural, he's really meaning what is customary or uncustomary. It wasn't customary for men to have sex with men in the Jewish context, but he saw it in the Greek world, and so he saw that as evidence of worshiping the wrong god.

He goes on to say

The Bible really doesn't deal with homosexuality because it has no concept of it. There were no Greek words, no Aramaic words, no Hebrew words for these concepts of human sexuality. There for the few references that have been lifted up, out of the bible, to be used in religious teachings to condemn homosexuality, really are inappropriate.

said by anyone, regardless of who they are, what they believe in or who they will fight for is any less truthful.

Would you accept that 2+2=4 only if a Christian told you? I'd like to think that you'd say no, because facts are facts no matter who is showing them, but you seem to be so close minded over everything other than words from (what appears to be) Biblical literalists, that I can actually see you saying yes to that question. Don't take that as an insult either as it is perfectly evident when you proudly stated:

Not interested in reading any theories and philosophies from infidels, skeptics, atheists, pagan's or secular points of view. ...

If you have anything that you think might interest us from Christian viewpoint [however]...

Which - to remind you again - I did give you Christian viewpoints, but your extreme bias towards everything that isn't christian lead you to make one of the most embarrassing comments on this forum I have ever seen.

So perhaps you should calm down, act Christian (because I'm sure Jesus wouldn't be acting like this), and love thy neighbor.

 

[Tina]

.

The really strange thing is that you make nonviolent resistance sound like it's a bad thing?

Of course it's bad ... any resistance to the Word of God (Bible) whether violent or non-violent is bad !

I really don't understand how this:

When Paul uses the term Natural or Unnatural, he's really meaning what is customary or uncustomary. It wasn't customary for men to have sex with men in the Jewish context, but he saw it in the Greek world, and so he saw that as evidence of worshiping the wrong god.

He goes on to say

The Bible really doesn't deal with homosexuality because it has no concept of it. There were no Greek words, no Aramaic words, no Hebrew words for these concepts of human sexuality. There for the few references that have been lifted up, out of the bible, to be used in religious teachings to condemn homosexuality, really are inappropriate.

said by anyone, regardless of who they are, what they believe in or who they will fight for is any less truthful.

Would you accept that 2+2=4 only if a Christian told you? I'd like to think that you'd say no, because facts are facts no matter who is showing them, but you seem to be so close minded over everything other than words from (what appears to be) Biblical literalists, that I can actually see you saying yes to that question.

And I don't understand how YOU can go on to IGNORE every Scripture we've shown to prove to you that homosexuality is blatantly sinful and wrong ... and yet choose to believe in some gay pastor's distorted and biased interpretation of scriptures. He claimed that "the Bible really doesn't deal with homosexuality because it has no concept of it" .... when in fact, the Bible does amply deal with homosexuality and I believe the scriptures have already been laid down for you crystal clear.. You obviously choose to believe his distorted claims over what we are trying to present to you as truths in this thread .... Reducing the word "natural" to mean "customary" does not automatically make it right or make homosexuality sinless .. If what this Reverend did or said was nothing wrong and nothing to be concerned about, he wouldn't have been defrocked by the Methodist Church to begin with .. He strayed from the truth !

 

[Tina]

.

Which - to remind you again - I did give you Christian viewpoints, but your extreme bias towards everything that isn't christian lead you to make one of the most embarrassing comments on this forum I have ever seen.

So perhaps you should calm down, act Christian (because I'm sure Jesus wouldn't be acting like this), and love thy neighbor.

Geez man, you're hysterical .. :bigcry .. I never meant to embarrass you ! ..

Just trying to show you that your "Christian" viewpoints are not really christian after all ..... But how would you know, you're not a Christian !


:shades

 

[jasoncran]

so the ending there in romans 1 is death for those that break custom? wow, god is harsh.

evo, you are preaching that we cant change them nor can they be changed. and that is natural. duh

thus bringing back to my point.
it aint natural. if God made men and women to be gay then he would have plainy said it..

hint: if you got to twist and rend scripture to make the point then it aint the truth or proper exegesis.

and to jwu that thinking is the lie that i am adressing.

 

[jasoncran]

evo at the age of ten, is when i had the first thought.

at the age 23 is when i stopped being bi. it was a simple prayer that's it done.

14 yrs ago for me. and no person put me in a room and forced me to change

in fact i will tell the way it happened.
i got a call for from beatty, she is a christian and also prophetess and would often without being told by me or other means know what i was doing both good or sinfully.

her son, a muslim, knew that i was dating a gay man, he was talking to her(beatty) and then she decided to pray and call me. she called me and told me that while i was saved , that i was in grave err, that i needed to repent for the lord called what i was doing sin. she told me to read romans 1

i did. at first i tried to deny it, of course i openly said what i saw, but i didnt want to believe it, but i did and i i reprayed the sinners prayer, and at that i day called my gay man and broke it off.

while i still talked to him and would still, i felt no attraction and to be honest anger that i was beguiled by the devil. i almost hated him for that(the gay man) but the lord then told me that it takes to do that sin, and that i should pray for him, i repented of my anger.hate and from then on, i set out to reach the lbgt in love. teaching that they need to repent.


i have done that a few times.

 

[Tina]

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Here is a ... testimony of a Sy Rogers, .... ex-gay, now a pastor. He's responsible for setting up the gay deliverance ministry in my church.

His turning to gay has nothing to do with human nature. It was because of childhood trauma and sexual abuse. "A dedicated handful of boys in the schools he attended made his life difficult and convinced him that he was gay."

 

[Evointrinsic]

Of course it's bad ... any resistance to the Word of God (Bible) whether violent or non-violent is bad !

Do you think we should kill these people as well?

And I don't understand how YOU can go on to IGNORE every Scripture we've shown to prove to you that homosexuality is blatantly sinful and wrong ... and yet choose to believe in some gay pastor's distorted and biased interpretation of scriptures. He claimed that "the Bible really doesn't deal with homosexuality because it has no concept of it" .... when in fact, the Bible does amply deal with homosexuality and I believe the scriptures have already been laid down for you crystal clear.. You obviously choose to believe his distorted claims over what we are trying to present to you as truths in this thread .... Reducing the word "natural" to mean "customary" does not automatically make it right or make homosexuality sinless .. If what this Reverend did or said was nothing wrong and nothing to be concerned about, he wouldn't have been defrocked by the Methodist Church to begin with .. He strayed from the truth !

No actually, I haven't, in fact in my original post I posted scripture that showed that homosexual behavior was against tradition/rituals. What I have done, however, is show you that your concept of the bible is only produced by the words within it, but not what the words traditionally mean. You simply cannot understand what the bible truly means if your understanding of it is only within a modern mind. Just as you will not truly understand Shakespeare before you understand the language he spoke in. You may be able to pick apart bits and pieces, but the overall meaning of whatever he wrote may be lost because of your lack of understanding of his culture and language. The exact same thing applies to the bible.

You are very correct in saying that "reducing the word 'natural' to mean 'customary does not.... make it right or make homosexuality sinless" That wasn't my point, the point was that if we have the dangers of reading the bibles words without understanding the bibles words than misinterpretations can be made. In this example, the use of the word natural can make a average reader assume that it literally means natural. Then assumptions can be made that homosexuality in itself is not natural, when in tern what was originally meant wasn't literally "Natural" but "customary", which then gives a totally different meaning to that whole verse.

Geez man, you're hysterical ... I never meant to embarrass you ! ..

Ah, your case is much more severe than I first thought. Embarrass me? no, i'm sorry, in fact you made me laugh. Perhaps you should re-read what was previously posted by me and yourself. Here's a quick summary just in case you misunderstand, again.

~ I stated "I can prove how Praying deals with psychological factors too"
~ You stated "Ok, prove it"
~ I then gave you a long list of articles (some from Christian sites, some from Christian authors and all from Christian tests, which were funded by Christian Churches)
~ Before acknowledging the list, you simply posted saying that you already made up your mind because you "knew" I was going to give non-theistic studies as evidence, and presented yourself as a close minded person (refusing to believe anything outside of your comfortable zone [aka, "nothing out of Christianity is true"])
~ I then showed how your intense distaste for anything non-Christian made you make a massive (and embarrassing) error of assuming that I'd only give non-theistic examples simply because I am an Atheist. which not only is rather arrogant of you (which is a sin by the way [Mk 7:22 NIV; Isa 2:17,11 NIV; Ro 1:30; 2 Cor 11:20; Isa 13:11]) but also bitter of you (also a sin [1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 2:16]), is Despising one of God's Children (sin = Mt 18:10), and trust me I could go on.
~ What happens after I show you how your intense distaste for anything non-Christian lead you to be close minded and wrong? Well I showed you why that was true, and showed you that all the links i gave you are in fact Christian based in some one.

Your inability to accept anything other than words from a christian (and even then I have my doubts you'll accept even truth from a christian if it goes against what you perceive in the bible as true), makes you so incredibly blind to anything outside your little world of a face value level bible false, that you are incapable of learning even the basics of anything if you think it is at all threatening to anything you believe in. Which in itself is a denial of knowledge. In other words, I couldn't convince you that fish live in water if you thought otherwise.

Just trying to show you that your "Christian" viewpoints are not really christian after all ..... But how would you know, you're not a Christian !

... Do you even know that your addressing anymore? The "Christian viewpoints" i was talking about were the articles. You know, the ones that talked about tests funded by Christian Churches? I think you need to take a rest from this topic, because your incapable of understanding what is even being talked about now.

so the ending there in romans 1 is death for those that break custom? wow, god is harsh.

I agree

evo, you are preaching that we cant change them nor can they be changed. and that is natural. duh

Are you ignoring what I've been saying?

I've said numerous times that initially, it's not a choice - because it's natural - but if someone really wanted to they could suppress those natural urges, possibly permanently as well.

Let me break that down for you. In the beginning of a persons life, they do not choose who they are attracted to, it comes naturally. Later on, however, one can potentially suppress those natural urges, possibly even for ever - aka, change.

In fact, could you please quote one of my posts that shows me saying that homosexuality cannot be changed?

it aint natural. if God made men and women to be gay then he would have plainy said it..

I've shown you on countless incidences that it is in fact natural. However, scripture doesn't say that it is unnatural in the literal sense. No one can understand scripture until they understand the customs and the language of which the original was written in.

hint: if you got to twist and rend scripture to make the point then it aint the truth or proper exegesis.

It's not twisting scripture around, it's not altering it in anyway. What you are reading is only what the modernized, literal view of scripture. The bible wasn't written in the sense that can be interpreted, literally, in modern times.

In fact, the act of taking the bible literally only really grew in strength in the 1920s. so we have nearly 2000 years of Christianity where the bible wasn't read in the sense that you read it as.

at the age of ten, is when i had the first thought.

at the age 23 is when i stopped being bi.

Interesting. So then you'd agree with me that initially it wasn't a choice? Also an interesting note is that those are both ages that are drastically close to ages where high hormonal activity is present.

For both Tina and Jason, here is an interesting article I just read that may be able to answer some more questions.

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/comingoutadvice/a/Causes.htm

 

[Tina]

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For both Tina and Jason, here is an interesting article I just read that may be able to answer some more questions.

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/comingoutadvice/a/Causes.htm

The article concluded that ... "Despite social science and biological research, it is still not known what causes someone to be gay, lesbian, bisexual or straight. Scientists and social scientists will no doubt continue to study the causes of homosexuality in both animals and humans. "

And you insist that homosexuality is due to "nature".

 

[Tina]

.

~ I then gave you a long list of articles (some from Christian sites, some from Christian authors and all from Christian tests, which were funded by Christian Churches)
- Well I showed you why that was true, and showed you that all the links i gave you are in fact Christian based in some one.

You know, the ones that talked about tests funded by Christian Churches?

Funded by Christian Churches ? ... Please list them all down ...

I think you need to take a rest from this topic, because your incapable of understanding what is even being talked about now.

Why? ... My arguments are too overwhelming for you to handle ?? ..... :biglol

 

[jasoncran]

please you claim, evo, that the change isnt real.
that the person is doing it, not GOD!
you claim that it is natural, and according to that biased resources you have that we are wrong.

that being gay isnt a sin.
if i dont know what twisting the scripture i guess.
again, can you show me in the bible somewhere that they were an actually gay couple that God allowed and didnt judge or a verse that permits being gay?

if the lord wanted us to be that way, and allow that, why didnt he just say it.

i mean in no uncertaint words.

like this."Let the marriage bed be undefiled, but the whoremonger God will judge"


what does that mean, it mean that sex outside marriage will be judged, and that the definition of marriage to the early christian was this according to paul in titus. one man and wife! male and female.

an please gay men and so on was around a long time.lets not insult the christian here please. was not alexander the great considered to be gay. and that was 400 yrs before the time of the writings of the nt.

 

[Evointrinsic]

The article concluded that ... "Despite social science and biological research, it is still not known what causes someone to be gay, lesbian, bisexual or straight. Scientists and social scientists will no doubt continue to study the causes of homosexuality in both animals and humans. "

And you insist that homosexuality is due to "nature".

Glad to see you decided to look at this one before commenting.

If you actually read through this topic however, I've already stated that we don't know for sure why homosexuality arises. But, because we have no physical evidence of the devil, we cannot add that into the equation for causation. Another reason we can't exclude nature as a possibility is, simply because we don't know why something exists does not automatically make a supernatural explanation valid (or even the only other possibility). Take lightning for example, It used to be thought that gods produced lightning, until we discovered that some clouds can gather electric charge.

When it comes to homosexuality however, we already have quite valuable theories, and by theories, i mean scientific theories (as in theories that already have evidence that back up the theory itself).

Also, why would other animals have homosexual behavior? I'm curious to find your answer on this, as it doesn't really make sense to me if your argument is that homosexuality isn't natural. Also, if it's not natural, what is it? (once again, your opinion)

 

[jasoncran]

so the word that paul used in romans working that which is unnatural men with with men the man gave up their use for the women. doenst really mean unnatural but something else.

on hesphation.

lover of the man alexander the great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestion

please read the part on where it says that they were lovers.

if the lord, i repeat, made gays by design or for your sake evolution did he plan for them to be gay?
why would the lord call it a sin? why not just say it out clearly so that his followers would now what is sin.

i guess my God isnt omnipotent nor omniscience. and cruel.oh i dont think so. i know better.

 

[Tina]

.

If you actually read through this topic however, I've already stated that we don't know for sure why homosexuality arises. But, because we have no physical evidence of the devil, we cannot add that into the equation for causation.

The devil does not show up with red eyes, sharp clawy fingers, two ugly horns or a hood on its head, or with his underwear over his clothes like some kind of spiderman ! ....

You see ... that's the different between an ATHEIST like you and CHRISTIANs like us. You do not know the spiritual things of the world. You have NO idea what the devil is and how it works, so quit expounding on something you know NOTHING about !!

Another reason we can't exclude nature as a possibility is, simply because we don't know why something exists does not automatically make a supernatural explanation valid (or even the only other possibility).

I do not exlude nature as ONE of the causes of homosexuality... or what we deem as "genetic", something that runs in the family. But the stark contrast between YOUR belief and MY belief is that ... I absolutely believe that GOD is able to change even that "nature" that results in homosexuality ! ... You don't believe that and insist that homosexuals cannot be changed for good ...

Take lightning for example, It used to be thought that gods produced lightning, until we discovered that some clouds can gather electric charge.

In case you haven't noticed, the "some clouds that can gather electric charge" are also from God ! ... That's what Christians believe anyway ....

When it comes to homosexuality however, we already have quite valuable theories, and by theories, i mean scientific theories (as in theories that already have evidence that back up the theory itself).

Scientific theories can come and go ... proved and disproved .... change or remain.

But our God never changes. The Bible says He is the Same God yesterday, today and forever ... If He has healed and delivered many gays before, He will absolutely be able to deliver many others in future. Question is, are gays willing to be changed and transformed? Do they believe that God can do it ? ... Or are they resigned to the deception that they are born that way, it is "natural" and they can never change, they have to live as gays all their lives ???

Also, why would other animals have homosexual behavior? I'm curious to find your answer on this, as it doesn't really make sense to me if your argument is that homosexuality isn't natural. Also, if it's not natural, what is it? (once again, your opinion)

My answer to all your burning questions is very simple and straight-forward ...

Animals are not born to be saved by God. They do not have the minds of man. They can practice homosexuality, rape, incest, murder, revenge all they want ... Many of them can even speak in tongues ! .... but whatever they do, not one of them is going to heaven for what they do or do not do ! .... They could even burn in hell but should I really care ???


Based on my personal experiences with gays, I've never met a single one that claims that it is their "natural" instinct. They turned gay out of curiosity, out of childhood trauma or sexual abuse, due to lack of fatherly figure in their lives, lack of girlfriends or boyfriends, or purely out of sheer perverted carnal desires. Many of them THOUGHT they were born that way, but after going through life experiences, they began to understand that was deceptions of their own minds. Many others are lonely or shy and the only people they could turn to or connect with are friends of the same sex and that eventually turn them into gays ..

My church has counselled and dealt with all these kinds of people for more than 10 years now and they have never encountered a single gay person whom they have found impossible to deal with ....

 

[Evointrinsic]

Funded by Christian Churches ? ... Please list them all down ...

They are sited in the articles, perhaps you should read them?

Forgot to add that other christian based foundations, such as the John Templeton Foundation also contributes to the same studies.

I think you need to take a rest from this topic, because your incapable of understanding what is even being talked about now.

Why? ... My arguments are too overwhelming for you to handle ?? .....

lol, no, definitely not. But the fact that you were responding to something I said with a response that had nothing to do with what you did, or I said, then yes, you need a rest.

please you claim, evo, that the change isnt real.
that the person is doing it, not GOD!
you claim that it is natural, and according to that biased resources you have that we are wrong.

I don't know how to make it more clear to you when I said that it may be possible to permanently change your attraction to a sex through a biological approach.

We have the ability of changing hormones and genetics as I've already shown. There hasn't been any evidence to show that God was the one who changed someone, there for we can't include it until there is evidence of that.

I have shown that it is natural, and have yet to here a rebuttal to why a property you are born with isn't natural.

Biased resources? This people are still Christians. If you'd like I could site Atheistic information?

that being gay isnt a sin.
if i dont know what twisting the scripture i guess.
again, can you show me in the bible somewhere that they were an actually gay couple that God allowed and didnt judge or a verse that permits being gay?

Actually, I've shown how homosexual behavior isn't an abomination in the sense that we define abomination today. I've never stated that Homosexuality isn't a sin.

"Twisting the scripture" is when you take the definition of every word in the bible as it applies to modern times. I've simply shown what "Abomination" and "natural" mean in the time in which the scripture was written.

No, I can't. why? Because I'm not claiming that homosexuality isn't looked down upon!

if the lord wanted us to be that way, and allow that, why didnt he just say it.

The bible also teaches us how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves. Do you abide by these parts of the bible as well? I'd like to think "No", because it's not in our culture in this time! Your picking apart the bible in a way you want to perceive it. Your taking some things literally while others parts aren't.

an please gay men and so on was around a long time.lets not insult the christian here please. was not alexander the great considered to be gay. and that was 400 yrs before the time of the writings of the nt.

When have I ever stated that homosexuality wasn't here before Christianity? If I take Homosexuality as natural, then why would I have to involve Christianity to make homosexuality at all possible? This makes no sense.