[_ Old Earth _] Homosexuality and nature

[Evointrinsic]

Very true, you've managed to suppress your attraction. And in the end the mind of man can be a very powerful thing. However - from what I can tell - you started attracted to both sexes, correct? In which case do you really have a say on whether strict heterosexuals/homosexuals made a choice on one or the other, judging from your personal experiences?

Gene Robinson (born May 29, 1947 in Fayette County, Kentucky) is the ninth bishop of the Diocese of New Hampshire in the Episcopal Church in the United States of America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Robinson He talks (in the movie "The Bible Tells Me So") about when he first realized he was "different" and tells a story about "when [he] was in 7th grade, a few of [his] friends managed to grab a hold of a playboy magazine, and [he]... realize that these pictures were apparently doing things for these other guys that they weren't doing for [him]."

Your telling me that this was a choice for him?

Chrissy Gephardt (also seen in the movie) said "When I was in high school and college I remember my girlfriends talking about sex, saying how great it was and how wonderful it was and I'm like 'this sucks! why do you like that?' and they were like 'oh he's so hot and... his body...' and I'm like 'uuh huhh' you know?"

This was also a choice for her?

Don't get me wrong though, I can see individuals making a choice from a personal experience such as woman being in an abusive situation and simply be turned off of men because of that, or in your situation as well. But these people, as well as all of my gay friends never made any choices, they and I simply are attracted to who we are attracted to.

EDIT: Why is "sucks" censored?

 

[jasoncran]

they can choose to repent, it has been done. i have seen them. if not then lord is a liar for in the nt it talks about some that were gay and repented.

if its a sin, God is able to cleanse it.

for the bible makes no distinction on sin and that the lord heals.

i cant make you believe that. i only know by faith, to wit, that you dont have, the lord has taken it from me.

if i can totally go from desire male sex to hideousness in thought about it, that isnt supression, that transformation.

when i prayed to be saved, and was going to chuch for a month, i got involved in my first and only male and male relationship.it was hard for me to do it,but i loved him,and i wanted to do it.for you see as i went to church i know what i was doing was wrong, the pastor didnt preach on that stuff, but i knew that it was wrong wanted that man! the struggle to do what was wrong over what was right is the bible is what caused hesitations.

i have had lusts for men before that, but never acted on them, as they were easy to control. but they never went away.

i repented at the words of godly woman who over the phone read to me romans 1 and told me to reread it, and i repented and tha was the end of that.

 

[Evointrinsic]

By a psychological standard what you did was inhibition of the impulse of attraction, which is suppression. Welcome to the realm of psychology.

Virtually any person can - if they really tried hard enough - believe/do/see things that they want to. You can pretty much convince yourself of anything that you want if you try/believe hard enough. There are thousands of cases of this and it's quite well documented (both scientifically and of course through Hollywood films). The fact is, however, what you experienced before hand wasn't a choice was it? You simply were who you were until you sought to change that. Perhaps you received help, perhaps you didn't, but it still stands that originally, naturally, you were bisexual. You never made a choice on the matter, you may have chose to act upon the emotions, but you never chose the emotions and/or attractions for yourself. So initially there is no choice involved on who or what your attracted to, you may be able to convince yourself or have someone convince you eventually, but when it comes down to the basics, you never made a choice. Do you agree with this?

 

[Tina]

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I would pleasantly like to say that Homosexuality is a natural occurrence.

I would pleasantly like to say that Homosexuality could also be from the devil … to pervert God’s original intention when creating man and woman.

There has been around 1500 species that have portrayed homosexual behavior. Over 500 of those species are well documented cases. Not only that but there's quite a lot of species that are only females, these species can be found in Insects, Crustaceans, Snails and flatworms, Reptiles, Sharks, Birds, Mammals and more classes. In some species homosexual behaviors can exist within 60%-80% of the population.

The Bible nowhere says that humans are equal to animals, reptiles, fish, birds or insects.

Now, don't get me wrong with this information. I am not saying that whatever other animals do, humans do. That is not what I am trying to portray. I am however showing that homosexuality is a natural occurrence in thousands of species.

Which is why God did not create humans to follow the pattern of strange species.

Reverend Steven Kindle discusses this by saying "If you read the bible on a face value level, that really disregards several very important things." and continues "The first one is a few versus before that, Moses teaches in Leviticus that it is an abomination to eat shrimp." Kindle also says "It is an abomination to eat a rabbit" ….. Eating pork was not innately immoral... but it was an abomination, because it was a violation of a ritual requirement."

The forbidden OT practices of eating shrimp or pork are no longer carried forward in the NT …. But homosexuality is still very much a sin ....


Mark 7:19-23
Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods ?†And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

Acts 10:14-15
But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common (impure) or unclean.†And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common (impure).â€

Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

As for if it's a choice or not, (the video also goes into that as well) Personally, i can not see how it could be a choice at all. (i'm sure you've heard this line) I never chose to be heterosexual, I may be able to suppress my heterosexuality if i really really wanted to, but I'd still be attracted to women in the end. My gay friends all say the same thing, they never made a choice, they were simply attracted to the same sex.

So i am curious to know if anyone on this forum still thinks of homosexuals (or homosexual behaviors) as an abomination (in this age's description of it) or not?

That’s all beside the point … God created sex between a man and woman for pleasure AND reproduction.


1 Corinthians 7:2
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.


Whatever the reason that someone turns gay, the Bible says it is absolutely POSSIBLE for change …. Many people fail to see this Scripture ….


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[jasoncran]

By a psychological standard what you did was inhibition of the impulse of attraction, which is suppression. Welcome to the realm of psychology.
negatory, i can stop and never have them. its possible,around i did. i dont dwell on men. if what you say is true then i must still be bi.

that isnt the case. as i have no glancing long hard looks and double,triple takes with men,like i do with women. does the enemy of my soul tempt me, yes. but when he does, i take authority over him. with women i can do that as well.

the change that i talk about(the power) to do it and be whole comes from the lord, not me.

i dont glance at men or the same men for minutes, like i have done with women and that to my chagrin.
if what you say is true then sooner or later those desires that i have buried will resurface.

i have done what you say to emotions. and hurts.

 

[jasoncran]

thanks, Tina, i was wondering if would be the only one to engage this lie. the lord has changed persons. he loves to heal and save the lost. for his glory.

 

[Evointrinsic]

I would pleasantly like to say that Homosexuality could also be from the devil … to pervert God’s original intention when creating man and woman.

I'm not saying that that isn't an option, However, there is only speculation behind that, so we can't make it conclusive information.

The Bible nowhere says that humans are equal to animals, reptiles, fish, birds or insects.

Nor am I, as it stands right now humans are a much more powerful species than any other on this planet that we know of. However, if we don't read the bible on a face value level, then we can understand how god still created all these organisms and their relation between each other.

Which is why God did not create humans to follow the pattern of strange species.

I would have to disagree with this statement. Let's take out genetics, as you'd most likely deny that evidence. We have a circulatory system, eyes, ears, a brain, skin, we're warm blooded, give birth to live young, have mammary glands, are vertebrates and breath air. What does this have to do with anything? all the things that are listed are common features in all other mammals (excluding the platypus when it comes to live young). That's nearly 5000 species that we have the exact same physical features with (the main features are warm blooded, live birth and skin and fur).

Humans follow the "pattern" of a social species, because we are a social species, because we survive better within a group rather than individuals. You can also see similarities when it comes down to the actions of social species. Stuff like: murder is bad, protecting the young, punishing those that do bad things, and so on.

The forbidden OT practices of eating shrimp or pork are no longer carried forward in the NT …. But homosexuality is still very much a sin ....

Yes I realize this, but that wasn't the point of the shimp and pork bit. The point was to show what abomination meant in those times versus these. Heck the term "Fag" so many years ago was meant to describe an old or unpleasant woman. It is ridiculous to think that Abomination many hundreds to thousands of years ago means the exact same things it does today.

That’s all beside the point … God created sex between a man and woman for pleasure AND reproduction.

No, actually, it's very much on the point of discussion. Nearly every "gay basher" I've met/seen/heard of has always said that homosexuality is a choice. All of those religious "clinics" that attempt to "fix" gay men and woman all say that homosexuality is a choice both directly and indirectly. So this is very much a topic that needs to be brought into discussion.

Whatever the reason that someone turns gay, the Bible says it is absolutely POSSIBLE for change …. Many people fail to see this Scripture ….

And I agree, with enough suppression, one can change and believe anything he or she want's to. The point is that these people were born naturally gay or - in Jason's case - bi. The initial attraction was to the same sex. Hence, natural, there for not a choice.

It is the exact same thing as heterosexuality. I never made the choice to be attracted to women, I simply am. Just the same way I never chose the color of my hair. I may be able to force it to change later on, but initially, no choice was made.

Jason:

negatory, i can stop and never have them. its possible,around i did. i dont dwell on men. if what you say is true then i must still be bi.

I believe that you can, I have no doubts in my mind that you can't do that yourself. As for the "i must still be bi if this were true" bit, that's way many people who go into a relationship knowing they were bi or gay before hand have a high tendency of living with an unhappy relationship or simply have a tendency to end it. I am not saying you apply to either of those, the chances are just a bit swayed. There are people in this world which have gone through traumatic experiences or have lost the ones they love yet they still see/replay these incidences over and over and convince themselves that those love ones are sitting right next to them or are in an ever constant loop through that traumatic experience. But in the end the reality is that those loved ones are gone and those traumatic experiences have passed. You can propose your own self view on reality and that in itself will be a reality for yourself. You may be able to carry this out for the rest of your life, you may not. The point is, however, is that it is all in these peoples mind.

The only way you may be able to permanently change your attraction to a sex is if sexual attraction is based on something physical (chemicals, hormones, genetics, development of the brain, ect) and you managed to change that physical aspect somehow. If you haven't managed to do that, then your simply convincing yourself that you aren't gay, bi or heterosexual, which - in many cases - will come back to haunt you or whichever individual is doing this.

 

[jwu]

so i must be lying then as i did change, and the bible that you, jwu claim to follow is written by a bigot.

Huh?

In what way did i claim that it is impossible to suppress bisexual tendencies? Please quote me.

if the lord wanted men with woman he wouldnt condemn that stuff.

Huh again?! Do you really mean what you wrote there?

while its possible for men or women to born gay , doesn it not say that he that is born agian is a new creature? if that is lie too you jwu?

I'm not saying that one cannot suppress bisexual tendencies that are there, i am saying that one cannot just make them appear out of nothing if they are not there. That's a very different thing than suppressing such extant tendencies after being "born again".

Please pay closer attention to what i actually write. What you argue against does not resemble what i argued for, and i think that i stated my point quite clearly, so there wasn't much potential for misunderstandings.

So here it is again:
Can a perfectly straight person become sexually attracted to a member of the same sex by choice?

 

[jasoncran]

in response to evo,

the lord can change, not me. how he does it is his thing.

now i know that you dont beleive the bible. but why would the verse need to be put forth like

to them he gave them power to become sons of God.

we have that power given to us by christ , when he died.

if not why bother even teaching christ, for if thats not the case then please let's burn all bibles and hang it up and so on.

if God cannot do what he says to do in his word then what reason do i have to believe?

 

[jasoncran]

my apologies to jwu as i get well heated on some subjects.

hmm good question for me to ponder, and let me ask you this why does it seem(note) seem that we have more gays then before, i mean every time we turn around so and so is gay. are all these kids or teens and celebreties really that gay?

i understand that it will show up,but i do think that for some attention is the only reason they claim it.

 

[Evointrinsic]

I'm not saying that god cannot make change happen, but wouldn't it be more logical for one of his children to make the change themselves to prove that they love him?

As for your question in your second post. It seems that there are more gay people than before most likely because it's becoming more and more acceptable. People aren't necessarily "turning gay", but more gay people may feel more comfortable "coming out" than before where there was a lot more heat on them from the general public.

 

[jasoncran]

I'm not saying that god cannot make change happen, but wouldn't it be more logical for one of his children to make the change themselves to prove that they love him?

As for your question in your second post. It seems that there are more gay people than before most likely because it's becoming more and more acceptable. People aren't necessarily "turning gay", but more gay people may feel more comfortable "coming out" than before where there was a lot more heat on them from the general public.

because as you say that not possible.

how can change one biological disposition? or the hormones.

trust me with the men that have made that transition it wasnt easy as they struggled for yrs. so they couldnt do it.

i do agree with that but some are wanting attention, i mean the support, some want to be loved and such like.

 

[Evointrinsic]

I didn't say it wasn't possible, I said

The only way you may be able to permanently change your attraction to a sex is if sexual attraction is based on something physical (chemicals, hormones, genetics, development of the brain, ect) and you managed to change that physical aspect somehow.

But because we don't know precisely - at this point in time - what makes a person attract to which gender, it is difficult for us to permanently change that attraction.

You can add and decrease hormones in a lot of things. Testosterone is a male hormone, we can add and decrease the amount of testosterone through diet, pills, physical activity, hell looking at porn even. We can even give testosterone to women (with some side effects of course. same thing goes for estrogen.

Perhaps the reason why gay men are gay is because their bodies produce estrogen more than testosterone? Perhaps the reason why gay women are gay is because their bodies produce more testosterone than estrogen?

We don't know for sure though. There is evidence that have shown in other species that I know of (and have witnessed in some cases) where a female releases a male sex hormone that arouses other females. The same goes for males releasing a female sex hormone that arouses males.

When it comes to genetics, we are now able to delete or add certain properties of "coding" to have a cell produce something that it didn't before, or take away something it was producing.

So yes, we can change ones "biological disposition" and their hormones.

As for the "increase in population" of homosexuals, I do agree that some people are their for attention and/or support, but that could not possibly be a prominent number in the population out there. But, by all means, if you have a credible statistic to back that up, be my guest and post it.

 

[jasoncran]

some preach it that way, i assumed that you come across like that.

with testerone for me that would be odd as that would make either want one or other. when i was bi and alot more hormonally driven(age wonderful thing) i channeled to what ever i wanted it to, usually women. since i was in the age of hiding that.

when i was with my man, he got the goods but i still wanted to have a woman,but i know that since i cared for him that was wrong, ohh but i looked.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Come across that way? I've said numerous times that initially, it's not a choice - because it's natural - but if someone really wanted to they could suppress those natural urges, possibly permanently as well.

with testerone for me that would be odd as that would make either want one or other. when i was bi and alot more hormonally driven(age wonderful thing) i channeled to what ever i wanted it to, usually women. since i was in the age of hiding that.

Once again, we don't know precisely what causes attraction. However, simply because you could alternate doesn't belittle the possibilities of why people are attracted to the same and/or opposite sex.

 

[jasoncran]

Come across that way? I've said numerous times that initially, it's not a choice - because it's natural - but if someone really wanted to they could suppress those natural urges, possibly permanently as well.

with testerone for me that would be odd as that would make either want one or other. when i was bi and alot more hormonally driven(age wonderful thing) i channeled to what ever i wanted it to, usually women. since i was in the age of hiding that.

Once again, we don't know precisely what causes attraction. However, simply because you could alternate doesn't belittle the possibilities of why people are attracted to the same and/or opposite sex.

but again just as you imply i had "both" and it dont die because you get sasitified by one or the other.

since salvation theres no desire for the other(same sex)

odd. if its natural to be gay or lesbian then if we dont know why then its left to ie opinion.hmm

if i was a little younger in this day and age i would have been told that is"natural" to have both natures and i should explore them so long as i use a condemn.

i disagree severally on being gay and or bi is natural since i hold the christian worldview. if it was god's plam he would havent condemns them

 

[Evointrinsic]

but again just as you imply i had "both" and it dont die because you get sasitified by one or the other.

since salvation theres no desire for the other(same sex)

odd. if its natural to be gay or lesbian then if we dont know why then its left to ie opinion.hmm

Not quite. It's not a matter of opinion, it's still a matter of evidence. We have evidence that shows us that hormones do cause men and women to have an attraction to a specific sex, we know this. We know that these hormones are able to fluctuate greatly. We know what can happen if an individual is given an excessive amount of either testosterone or estrogen. So we can gather up at least some evidence and provide a rational theory out of that evidence. It's not a matter of opinion.

Out of curiosity (and if your willing to share) at what age did you notice the bisexuality and at what age did you notice the complete disappearance of the bisexuality.

if i was a little younger in this day and age i would have been told that is"natural" to have both natures and i should explore them so long as i use a condemn.

i disagree severally on being gay and or bi is natural since i hold the christian worldview. if it was god's plam he would havent condemns them

Personally, if I had a Bisexual son or Daughter, I'd simply tell them to do whatever makes them feel most comfortable as a person.

So the bible says that homosexuality is wrong? Could you list all the verses in which it does say this?

 

[Tina]

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I'm not saying that that isn't an option, However, there is only speculation behind that, so we can't make it conclusive information.

The only way you may be able to permanently change your attraction to a sex is if sexual attraction is based on something physical (chemicals, hormones, genetics, development of the brain, ect) and you managed to change that physical aspect somehow. If you haven't managed to do that, then your simply convincing yourself that you aren't gay, bi or heterosexual, which - in many cases - will come back to haunt you or whichever individual is doing this.

Hey Man, you are an Atheist and are attempting to impose your views purely from personal opinions and worldly speculations. Understand that from a Christian perspective, we have to reject your views, not only because of what the Bible says, but also because of my own personal experiences .....

I am part of a mega-church and in my country (which is not US), my church is the only church which has a deliverance ministry specially dedicated to healing, delivering, counselling and helping Gays. I have personally met gays and lesbians who have been set free and their lifes made straight solely by the power of Christ. There was nothing physical like chemicals involved. They were completely healed and delivered solely and exclusively through intensive prayers and counselling. Many of these ex-gays are now actively serving in the ministry to help other gays ...

No, actually, it's very much on the point of discussion. Nearly every "gay basher" I've met/seen/heard of has always said that homosexuality is a choice. All of those religious "clinics" that attempt to "fix" gay men and woman all say that homosexuality is a choice both directly and indirectly. So this is very much a topic that needs to be brought into discussion.

And I agree, with enough suppression, one can change and believe anything he or she want's to. The point is that these people were born naturally gay or - in Jason's case - bi. The initial attraction was to the same sex. Hence, natural, there for not a choice.

I have briefly dated a gay before. We were set up by church friends so I went out with him. I could tell that he was very interested in me and was very attracted to me and we had a great time. But we eventually parted ways as I moved to another church. Since then, I heard that he went back to being gay. I heard that he is gay only because he could not find a suitable girlfriend that he really likes ...

So tell me .... is homosexuality really something "natural" ..... or is it a choice ?

 

[Evointrinsic]

I'm not saying that that isn't an option, However, there is only speculation behind that, so we can't make it conclusive information.

The only way you may be able to permanently change your attraction to a sex is if sexual attraction is based on something physical (chemicals, hormones, genetics, development of the brain, ect) and you managed to change that physical aspect somehow. If you haven't managed to do that, then your simply convincing yourself that you aren't gay, bi or heterosexual, which - in many cases - will come back to haunt you or whichever individual is doing this.

Hey Man, you are an Atheist and are attempting to impose your views purely from personal opinions and worldly speculations. Understand that from a Christian perspective, we have to reject your views, not only because of what the Bible says, but also because of my own personal experiences .....

I can hardly see how genetics, biology and psychology is imposing my personal opinions, or even worldly speculations.

I am part of a mega-church and in my country (which is not US), my church is the only church which has a deliverance ministry specially dedicated to healing, delivering, counselling and helping Gays. I have personally met gays and lesbians who have been set free and their lifes made straight solely by the power of Christ. There was nothing physical like chemicals involved. They were completely healed and delivered solely and exclusively through intensive prayers and counselling. Many of these ex-gays are now actively serving in the ministry to help other gays ...

Yes, and I already addressed this with my comments on psychology. Now, I can actually prove that someone can psychologically suppress a thought or feeling. And I can also prove how praying deals with psychological factors, too. It's not a personal opinion, it's a fact.

I have briefly dated a gay before. We were set up by church friends so I went out with him. I could tell that he was very interested in me and was very attracted to me and we had a great time. But we eventually parted ways as I moved to another church. Since then, I heard that he went back to being gay. I heard that he is gay only because he could not find a suitable girlfriend that he really likes ...

So tell me .... is homosexuality really something "natural" ..... or is it a choice ?

Unfortunately, to make a conclusion over this particular story, we would need to talk to the man himself, rather than from your perspective. Not only that, but it doesn't show much of his heterosexuality before you met him, so we can't really go on anything other than from what you have witnessed. As an example, I can tell you what my father thinks, but to get an accurate description you'd be best asking him yourself.

 

[Tina]

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Yes, and I already addressed this with my comments on psychology. Now, I can actually prove that someone can psychologically suppress a thought or feeling. And I can also prove how praying deals with psychological factors, too. It's not a personal opinion, it's a fact.

Well, what are you waiting for .... prove to us then .....