Homosexuality in Christianity

[Free]

Therefore, the Bible does say to kill homosexuals,.....

This is a statement that needs tons of qualifications to reflect what "the Bible says" on this matter.

Yes, there are parts of the Law of Moses that call for the killing of homosexuals. However, it needs to be underscored that the Law of Moses was for a particular people only (the Jews) and for a particular time only (beginning at the delivery of the Law at Mount Sinai and ending at the cross).

Note: This is not me "retrojecting" into the Bible - the Bible itself declares that such laws are limited to one people and for one time.

And, I'm assuming that the law is regarding a man lying with a man as one lies with a woman. If that is the case, it would once again be the act that is condemned, not the persons sexual preference.

Edited to add: It should be pointed out that physicist as of yet has only defined a homosexual as one who engages in homosexual acts. According that definition, for which I am still awaiting clarification, it would mean the person is condemned for those acts and not merely for their sexual inclination.

 

[seekandlisten]

Re: Salad bar Christians

Therefore, the Bible does say to kill homosexuals,.....

This is a statement that needs tons of qualifications to reflect what "the Bible says" on this matter.

Yes, there are parts of the Law of Moses that call for the killing of homosexuals. However, it needs to be underscored that the Law of Moses was for a particular people only (the Jews) and for a particular time only (beginning at the delivery of the Law at Mount Sinai and ending at the cross).

Note: This is not me "retrojecting" into the Bible - the Bible itself declares that such laws are limited to one people and for one time.

We will all pick an choose what is 'right' for us and what was for 'another time' but that is subjective to the individual. Using that same logic, isn't Romans 1 only speaking to those in Rome who gave themselves up to idol worship?

Jesus says to love your neighbor but 'religion' decides that homosexuals are not deserving of the same rights as 'christians' and treats them as somehow less of a citizen, no different then racism, slavery, or the oppression of women?

Your argument is that the bible says its a 'sin' yet so is gluttony, selfishness, greed, and self-rightousness. I don't see any fundamentalists standing outside Mcdonalds with signs that say 'God hates fatties'.

Where do you draw the line?

 

[Mysteryman]

MM,
I understand what you are saying, however, Romans 1 in context is refering to systemic sin as it relates to societies as a whole, or in his case, Empires. It's not simply what happens to a person, but what happens to a nation much in the same way that the USA provides abortions and allows Gay marriage. When these things become normative and widely acceptable to a nation as a whole, then what you've got is a better picture of Roman's 1.

This is one reason why Paul points us back to creation. He's retelling the story...

Now then, you may disagree with me, but before you do, please let me know that you understand what I'm saying. Once you understand and your still in disagreement, please show me at what point you think I'm at err.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Hi J.

Before replying quickly, I gave your thoughts and comments some serious consideration along with prayer.

I want you to know that I fully understand your question. It is based upon a nation or society, rather than a person, am I correct ?

Just so you know, I re-read Romans chapter one slowly and fully before replying here.

Paul is writing unto those saints that are in Roman. That he desires to come unto them and wants to empart unto them some spiritual gift, that they may be established. Which means that he believes that they are believers, but in need of being established. He said (verse 13) that he wanted to come unto them, and that it was his purpose. I believe Paul starts his explanation in verse 18. But before I continue, I want you to understand that I believe that he is not talking to the nation or society of Rome, but unto the saints, which are believers who need to be established. I can imagine that within Rome they being greek, held to many pagan beliefs. And Paul wanted to establish them with spiritual understanding.

Verse 18 would seem to imply that the wrath of God is going to be revealed from heaven against all ungodliness etc. Does not mean we are going to have another Sodom and Gamorah type raining down of destruction. I believe it was a reminder to the saints, that this type of ungodliness will be what happens at the end times that we read about in the book of Rev., which btw had not been written yet.

As we know Paul does have an understanding of the wrath of God. And we also know that Paul knew that this was a very long time off from that day. As here we are two thousand years later, and it is still thousands of years from now when this will happen. But, Paul wanted them to understand, that a true believer is not one who lives this type of life style. It is like a way in which Paul could put emphasis upon any that were living this way. And especially if any that were among the brethren would be exposed by his comments.

I believe that when it then comes to verse 20, Paul was explaining the spiritual things are revealed by the things that God made. And that they are without excuse. Again, to say that there are no excuses is a firm comment.

Now let me say this, if I have not made myself clear. I do not believe that this is talking to a society. I believe it is talking to those who are willing to listen and become established with the truth. I believe Paul is talking about those who have denied in their hearts the true God, as verse 23 establishes.

As you know, our nation is young as far as nations go. But our nation as a whole is walking away from God. Even in my home state, years ago, a people wanted same sex marriage. Our state, and our Govenour, made it clear, that they were willing to allow same sex "unions". This law passed . Now, just last year, our state legislature pass the law in our state . That same sex marriage if now legal in our state, even though over 60 % of the people in our state do not want same sex marriage. The will of the people is not being represented. We live with this now, but the majority do not believe in it, nor do we want it. But for now it is a law in our state. We are praying that the law become repealed. God knows our hearts as a state. As individual believers, we have talked about it on the golf course, which gives me a variety of type of Christians. Not just my group , but as a whole Christians in general. We seem to all agree that this is just wrong and inappropriate of our state gov. to put this law upon us as a state. Our govenor vetoed the bill, and our legislature overrode his veto.

I pray that I have not made you weary in reading all of this . My full intent is to explain my position as clearly as i can.

I believe he was speaking to all the saints that live within the society that they live in. And that it needs to be clear where they understand spiritual things.

I feel that our nation as a whole is leaning towards more and more unrighteousness. And a great many who lead our nation call themselves christian. I believe this is an example of where christianity is heading. Christianity is loosing its view of righteousness verses unrighteousness. We are becoming more acceptance of unrighteousness, and to a point it is being forced upon us.

If you disagree with me in any way, please explain your view. I am more than willing to listen to your understanding.

Bless - MM

 

[awaken]

The male/female relationship was blessed by God, and this is the only union which has been blessed by God in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible has God blessed male/male or female/female unions.

 

[Mysteryman]

MM,
I understand what you are saying, however, Romans 1 in context is refering to systemic sin as it relates to societies as a whole, or in his case, Empires. It's not simply what happens to a person, but what happens to a nation much in the same way that the USA provides abortions and allows Gay marriage. When these things become normative and widely acceptable to a nation as a whole, then what you've got is a better picture of Roman's 1.

This is one reason why Paul points us back to creation. He's retelling the story...

Now then, you may disagree with me, but before you do, please let me know that you understand what I'm saying. Once you understand and your still in disagreement, please show me at what point you think I'm at err.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Hi Jeff

When you get a chance to read this, I wanted to add to what I previously have stated.

You stated that the reason Paul points us back to creation, is because he is retelling the story. < I wanted to say that I agree here. But let me emphasize where and why I agree. In Romans 1:21 Paul is telling them that they knew God, but did not retain God in their knowledge. So this does go back to the Genesis story. Not necesarrily back to the creation story, but very early just after creation and man being put upon this earth. Like Cain being the first murderer. And as you can see from what I was talking about earlier. That murder is one of the many sins of a homosexual. And let us not forget that God gave them over to a reprobate mind, because they would not retain God in their minds. This would also include idolatry etc.

The result of homosexuality is not a sin in and of itself. But it comes about from God, because they would not retain God in their knowledge. Romans 1:21- And their imagination and foolish hearts were darkened. This brings us back to Genesis chapter 6 when God destroyed the earth with water, and why he destroyed this earth with water. This can be found in Genesis 6:5 - "And God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" So God gave them over to a reprobate mind way back in Genesis.

I was wondering if you picked up on this ? Because it is significant in understanding the fullness of the first chapter of Romans.

Talk to you soon

Bless - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Stovebolts: "I have personally known a handful of “homosexuals†in my life and can attest that several of them were not, as Romans 1:30 states in that they were “ slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, 1:31 senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless.â€


Hi Jeff

I do not believe that I addressed this comment of yours in a, proper and full explanation. I will attempt to do so now. >

Remember that here in the first chaper of Romans, Paul is dealing with the "mind", and not necessarily with an outward expression or manifestation. As you know, one can sin in their mind. The explanation that Paul gives in verses 29 & 30 & 31 is still talking about the mind. This means that they are capable of all of these. But some will not manifest all of these, and some will. Those who do not manifest all of these still have hope.

The same holds true with committing adultery in our minds. It is a sin to commit adultery in the mind, but the sin is not fully established unless one manifests the fullness of the sin. In other words, adultery in its fullness of the sin, only occurs when it becomes manifested between one who goes out and actually commites adultery. This "establishes" the sin of adultery.

King David did both with Bathsheba. First he coveted (thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife) , then he went about to manifest the sin with her. And lets not forget, that she was a willing partner in all of this. And she conceived. She bare a son. But the child died after a sickness, because God would not spare the child.

The reason I explained all of this, is because, what you claim that you have seen or not seen, is based upon that which has not been manifested , or what has been manifested. Or , established.

Bless - MM

 

[Physicist]

Good bye ten commandments?

Therefore, the Bible does say to kill homosexuals,.....

This is a statement that needs tons of qualifications to reflect what "the Bible says" on this matter.

Yes, there are parts of the Law of Moses that call for the killing of homosexuals. However, it needs to be underscored that the Law of Moses was for a particular people only (the Jews) and for a particular time only (beginning at the delivery of the Law at Mount Sinai and ending at the cross).

Note: This is not me "retrojecting" into the Bible - the Bible itself declares that such laws are limited to one people and for one time.

I am not Jewish and I presume that neither are you. Therefore, by your logic, we are exempt from the ten commandments.

 

[Physicist]

Therefore, the Bible does say to kill homosexuals,.....

This is a statement that needs tons of qualifications to reflect what "the Bible says" on this matter.

Yes, there are parts of the Law of Moses that call for the killing of homosexuals. However, it needs to be underscored that the Law of Moses was for a particular people only (the Jews) and for a particular time only (beginning at the delivery of the Law at Mount Sinai and ending at the cross).

Note: This is not me "retrojecting" into the Bible - the Bible itself declares that such laws are limited to one people and for one time.

And, I'm assuming that the law is regarding a man lying with a man as one lies with a woman. If that is the case, it would once again be the act that is condemned, not the persons sexual preference.

Edited to add: It should be pointed out that physicist as of yet has only defined a homosexual as one who engages in homosexual acts. According that definition, for which I am still awaiting clarification, it would mean the person is condemned for those acts and not merely for their sexual inclination.

Yes, I am using a legal approach to defining the term. If you do not engage in homosexual activities, you are not homosexual, regardless of your feelings. Similarly, while I might have wanted to murder my boss, teacher, spouse etc upon occasion, I have and will refrain from doing so, Hence I am not a murderer.

 

[jasoncran]

Thank you westtexas for that analogy to which I was going to appeal to. Saves me some work.

Sorry for the late reply Jason; it was just one of those days.

First, I think that Christians do Christ a great disservice to deny the homosexual the right to believe they were born that way. We cannot say whether homosexuals are born as homosexuals or whether at some point they made a choice, either consciously or not. I believe that it is plausible that at least some are born preferring the same sex, while it has been shown that at least some have made the choice, and at least some of those are due to sexual abuse or early exposure to pornography.

My first point then, is that Christians need to legitimize the feelings of homosexuals and their belief that they were born that way. We should not, and indeed cannot, know otherwise. Leave it to God who does know.
how long do you struggle with that then, forever, yes for some it will take a while to be delivered, but God can and does take it all(the desire for the same sex).
Secondly, I am quite certain that if one reads what Scripture says, it does not condemn the homosexual for their attraction to the same sex. Rather, it condemns homosexual acts, whether performed by homosexuals or heterosexuals. In fact, according to the theologian who changed my mind on this issue, in biblical times there were no "homosexuals," there were only the acts themselves.

Thirdly, for everyone who desires to be a follow of Christ, there are sacrifices to be made; we are all called to be like Jesus, to be holy and to be pure. The alcoholic must refrain from drinking too much; all people, particularly men, must keep from lusting; etc. We are to keep our passions and desires in check at all times or we will fall into sin. It is no different for the homosexual. And whether or not God changes their "sexual orientation" is up to Him but by God's grace the homosexual can live a holy and chaste life. And by his grace I will never have sex outside of my marriage.

And with that, I appeal to westtexas' analogous experience, especially since some think that alcoholics are born predisposed to alcoholism. Of course, that isn't an excuse to drink, but it shows that it is much harder for some and only by God's grace can they live they way he wants them to live.

i speak from this perspecrctive, if god calls you to be a eunich then you won t want a man or woman at all,not all.

 

[jasoncran]

i will correct my self. I honestly dont believe that the Lord will leave you there. as the desire for man will come out and need to be acted on. its simply not the way the lord wanted us to be. with the naturaly designed and planned heteronature of man and women. why wouldnt god heal us from this, yes some will struggle no doubt.

healing is there for you, this applies to other sins, but with a the unnatural lusts for the same sex is far more then control, as the thoughts will be there and you only want them, unlike me where i could look at a man or a women and get the same reaction, but with the men, even though i choose one way or the other i still had the thoughts and desire for other.

with a homosexual he or she only desires the same sex, to them it is natural. they have to be delivered as how does one tell your self no to that sexy man when your flesh desires a relationship with a man. yes, you can say no, and give it to the Lord, but he wont leave you there to be tortured.

is the lord's hand to weak to deliver. Most gays that have repented at the cross that i know, are no longer gay.the are fully heterosexual and delivered. some struggled, but are now deliverd. They didnt stay "celebate" they wanted to change. they stayed away from the men and situations that drew then into that sin. This is my perpesctive.

satan steals our lives along with our souls. the lord restores.

i dont believe that one is alcoholice forever, upon repentance that person is changed, unless that verse in corinthaians is false.

 

[westtexas]

i dont believe that one is alcoholice forever, upon repentance that person is changed, unless that verse in corinthaians is false.

I am going to assume you are speaking of 2 Cor. 5:17 and I will agree with you that we are new creations upon repentance. The men and women who knew me 17 yrs ago and prior to that in my life will also attest to the fact that our Lord has made me a different man. But I have to disagree with your view that our Lord just "flips a switch" upon repentance and our earthly thoughts just go away. I believe they did for you, Praise God. We are changed because we realize we cannot make it through the trials and tribulations of this life without the help of our Lord.
As for your statement above, I can tell you are absolutely wrong! I have not had a drink in 17 yrs but I am still an alcoholic. Through the Grace and Love of my Lord, my mind says I don't want a drink, but many times my body says YES YOU DO. I thank my Lord for his love and help, maybe one day as it was for you, the desire will completely go away. Until then his Grace is enough.
I don't know any homosexuals but I believe that there have to be some out there that are just as I am. They desire to change because it is the way our Lord wants us to be, but the struggle is tough sometimes. Our sins are different but they are none the less the same, they are still sin. And for them, just as it is for me, His Grace is enough.

Westtexas

 

[jasoncran]

i wont imply that that those that struggle with that sin are wanting to give up arent saved, but to say that oh one can be a homosexual and be celebate and enter into in heaven isnt biblical either.

this isnt like the lust for a woman. a natural desire that needs to put towards the right person the wife. this is something else all together. a lust or desire that needs to be healed. that is my point

think of it this way

if paul wrote this to the homosexual celebates
tis better to marry than to burn. think about it from that angle and what then?

that is what we sound like when we say, one can be gay and ok along as its kept inside.
how? if i look and like a mans body part and its natural for me to think that, its ok as long as its not acted on.

do i think we should show mercy to those that struggle yes. but like those that struggle with porn and suchlike accountability is needed.

 

[jasoncran]

then you have just denied my deliverance as i dont have to accept those lusts for men does satan tempt me with them yes, and i can and choose to ignore them. before my repentance i cant resist those thoughts. that is the difference. i have been given the power through the cross to choose not to sin. the flesh still may want it, but if the spirit of christ dwells he will take that and crush it

btw food for thought, why is it with a certain delieverance from sickness we say healed, yet with some types of sin when we delivered from it we say that we have it in remisiion?

did the blind men upon healing say that they were still blind?

 

[westtexas]

then you have just denied my deliverance as i dont have to accept those lusts for men does satan tempt me with them yes, and i can and choose to ignore them. before my repentance i cant resist those thoughts. that is the difference. i have been given the power through the cross to choose not to sin. the flesh still may want it, but if the spirit of christ dwells he will take that and crush it

I agree. I think we are trying to say the same thing basically. My point is, and from the above post I believe that you agree with it, wheter we are speaking of the homosexual or the addict, the desire for the sin does not go away overnight upon repentance. Does the desire ever go completely away? For me it has been 17 yrs and it is only by the grace of God and the power of the cross, as you have said, that I can resist the sin of addiction. The OP was about homosexuality and Christianity. As with the addict, the homosexual, whether he is completely healed (as you were) or wheter he abstains and fights this sin by choosing not to be involved, is entirely up to our Lord.
With that being said, let me ask you a question. You have stated that we can choose to ignore our thoughts. Do you believe that the man who is completely healed at conversion, is any more or less a Christian, than the man who stands strong for the Lord and must fight these desires for years?
And as for denying your deliverance, I think if you read back through my posts I think you will see the contrary. You will see that I believe you have been delivered and that I rejoice with you for that.
Westtexas

 

[jasoncran]

the lust for a man inho isnt like the same for a woman though it can be, like with porn, looking at a shirtless man will cause the gay man to want that person. He can continue to think about the man or repent if he is a christian,but the very thought its self isnt by design natural, that is where i make my point.

yes, one can struggle with this, but is it natural for him to want the man? no. that is sin, with the lust for the woman(just a look) is natural and can be stopped just like the homo version. the difference the good lord designed us to want the opposite sex.

with the gay thing, it doestn work like that, i had both. i could be with a woman, and most of time i was. but from time to time, a certain body type would hit me and i would think and ponder on that.(male). i never acted on that till one day i was caught off guard.

is is natural for a man to be gay? that is my question to you westtexas. Is it in God's plan for a man to love a man as a woman? was the creation story like this? adam and steve or adam and eve or eve and litith or lilith and adam? we know the answer.

the very desire for a person of the same sex goes against what the lord wants and it is sin.

that is where i come from and what i mean with about those thoughts. why the thought and desire itself is sin. we need to tell the homosexuals that just being celebates isnt enough. they have to want to be straight!

 

[jasoncran]

one isnt more saved after yrs of walking with the lord, but is more sanctified.
i do think that with the walk we should be drawing ever closer and less and less of the sin nature be seen, if not then our salvation needs to look at.

works must accompany that prayer eventually. tis the evidence of it

 

[westtexas]

is is natural for a man to be gay? that is my question to you westtexas.

the very desire for a person of the same sex goes against what the lord wants and it is sin.

Once again I agree. And to be perfectly honest homosexuality makes me sick! But I believe I look at it differently than God does. As a person, some sins are more acceptable to me than others are. I believe ALL sin makes God sick.
I believe that WHATEVER our sin is, the Lord will help us overcome them. I also believe that some of us will struggle, but by the Grace of the Lord we can have the strength to resist. I also believe that no sin is blacker to the Lord than any other is. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
With all that being said, I agree that the desire for a person of the same sex is sin, but I disagree that it is any worse than lust for the opposite sex (if I understand you correctly). I believe that our Lord will honor our prayers and help us resist our temptations (even homosexuality and addiction) but that some of us will struggle.

Gotta call it a night my brother, talk to you again tomorrow
Westtexas

 

[jasoncran]

i see your point, but that thought for the same sex is the problem, it by itself is sin. that is where i disagree with you. that is why i believe the lord must change you.

 

[westtexas]

i see your point, but that thought for the same sex is the problem, it by itself is sin. that is where i disagree with you. that is why i believe the lord must change you.

I don't think you understand me. Show me where I have said thought is not a sin, I agree, if we dwell on that thought. My whole point is that you seem to think that since you were delivered easily that every sinner is. Some will struggle with the thought, and regardless of what those thoughts are, it is only by the grace of God that we have the strength to resist those thoughts.
Westtexas

 

[jasoncran]

actually i do. but the way we word it. some tell the gay men that he can stay gay all his life and not want to change yet enter into heaven simply because they dont act out their sin. that is where i'm coming from

reread my posts and i say nothing that all will instantally healed. the ones that i knew werent. one of them had desires for me. and he was gay for yrs and never knew a woman, yet last i heard he was engaged. he struggled for yrs, i prayed for him and he was finally delivered at a joyce meyer retreat meant to reach the gay community.

i'm well aware of that some will struggle. i was in that sin while saved(supposidley) i used to sit in chruch denying what i was doing was wrong. i was miserable. i was in a gay relationship till i repented. i ignored the lord screaming at me to repent(it felt that way). a friend confronted me to repent and i did. but i was in that sin for a few months.