Homosexuality - Sin? Why?

[Vic C.]

First off, lets remember our rules state there will not be any promoting of ANY sinful behavior. The act of homosexuality is one of those behaviors.

I have to agree whith the statements made by gingercat, Thess and Gendou. I add Gendou because although I don't condone the act, I do my best to not let it become a source of prejudice for me.

I will like to ask those who say it's genetic and there's scientific proof... this is the time to "bring it on". Lets see these scientific sources so we may debate from your point of view. Speak now... 8-)

One more thing, who here feels God is wiser than us? I do, for one. More STD's have been spread through peverted acts of sex and that includes homosexual activity, especially throughout the male gender.

Gee, I wonder if God knew this all along? ;-)

 

[ArtGuy]

I will like to ask those who say it's genetic and there's scientific proof... this is the time to "bring it on". Lets see these scientific sources so we may debate from your point of view. Speak now... 8-)

I know this is more or less pointless, since scientific evidence that is inconvenient just gets discarded as being from a biased source, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Here's a study discussing genetic factors.

Here's one purporting a link between finger proportions and sexual orientation. (I guess finger length could be a choice.)

Here's a study in which fruit flies were genetically altered to be gay.

Likely, homosexuality stems from a combination of genetics, in utero development, and upbringing, with a heavy emphasis on the first two. Also likely, the ratio of relevant factors varies widely from person to person, such that for some it really is a choice, and for others, they were "doomed", so to speak, from birth.

But you know what? Proof of genetic predisposition towards homosexuality doesn't mean that we have to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that people just choose to be gay. (Really, who the heck would choose to be a member of a class that's the target of such hatred? The idea is prima facie absurd.)

There is a mental disorder that will cause you to want sex with children. There is evidence that some people are genetically predisposed to violence. A tendency towards alcoholism is, certainly, genetically transferrable. Clearly, nobody chooses to have a mental disorder, nobody chooses to be predisposed towards violence, and nobody chooses to have a weakness for alcohol. At the same time, though, we don't just excuse pedophiles, violent criminals, and alcoholics. We don't shrug and go, "Well, they can't help it, so let's not judge them."

You have a strong urge to fondle little girls? Tough, deal with it - you have a responsibility to not endanger children, even if that means having yourself committed or seeking psychiatric help. You have a tendency towards violence? Tough - learn to count to ten before smacking someone. You have a weakness for booze? Tough - stay out of the liquor aisle at Safeway. A predisposition towards something doesn't give you a free pass. It just imbues you with extra responsibility.

If a Christian who's anti-gay wants to think that homosexuality is a mortal sin, the fact that orientation is largely determined before birth shouldn't stop him. It just means that gays have an extra burden placed on them. He don't need to stick his fingers in his ears and ignore the findings of science (pardon me, "secular science" - we must properly demonize the field).

 

[Imagican]

Imagican -

I was going to reply, but your post is so riddled with strawmen, logical fallacies, and outright, unadulterated hate speech that I'd rather it stand on its own as an example of a true "loving" Christian.

Well Novum, let me ask you this; Are you gay?

 

[gingercat]

An excellent post art guy :angel:

 

[ArtGuy]

Thanks, ginger.

 

[Imagican]

ArtGuy,

I ask you the same question.

I am NOT here to ridicule ANYONE. But it's only fair that in a discussion such as this, if you defend such behavior, you allow those that you are discussing this with know your orientation.

Now, this aside. You jump up and throw out science as the answer to this Christian question. While I myself am an advocate of science in it's ability to offer a physical understanding of the world in which we live, I think that this IS a Christian forum and that this question was asked, in all sincerity, based on Christian doctrine. And, while that Christian doctrine DOES teach us love and forgiveness, it also offers examples of out right sin and evil.

Guys, once again, I didn't create the Word. But, it says what it says and I don't really care if ANYONE likes it or not. We have been given an understanding of MANY things by THE CREATOR of ALL things and I trust His definition MUCH MUCH MORE than ANY MAN.

There is no debate about stealing being wrong. Nor is there anyone, (Christian), that would deny that murder is wrong. So, why would I choose to ignore what IS STATED about homosexuality, (Unless of course I were gay and chose NOT to accept it for the guilt that it may induce).

Look, if someone chooses to be gay, that is between them and God. I am not one to go around 'gay bashing'. I DO NOT accept the 'political correctness' of ignorance either. The Word IS the Word and there is NO denying of this in Christianity.

So, choose to participate or condone if you must, but I am here to warn you of the consequences of such an attitude. I would suggest that if this becomes a problem with you that a 'gay' web site may be a more appropriate venue for a 'pro-gay' mentality.

Mods, please, let me know if what I have stated is in any way innapropriate on the forums. But the truth is the truth whether one chooses to accept it or not.

Homosexuality is one of the basest of conditions offered in the Word. For the actual participation in homosexual behavior IS freely chosen and without merit. Regardless of what one offers in respect to genes, we have the words in the Word that tell us the nature of this sort of behavior.

I believe that I have offered a very liberal stance on this subject as compared to that offered in Mosaic Law. In that time, if one were caught having sex outside of marriage, there were strict penalties involved. If one were caught practicing homosexuality, they were STONED TO DEATH.

I know that Christ offered a way out of this kind of barbarian behavior, but I KNOW that the way God feels about this particular abomination is NO different NOW than it was then.

We are told that we CANNOT serve two masters. And if you will read what I offered from Romans, stated above, you will quickly see that the nature of this behavior is described as worshiping the 'creature' more than the creator. The creature in this passage IS refering to man worshiping HIMSELF more than God. And for this reason...........................

 

[Novum]

Well Novum, let me ask you this; Are you gay?

No. Why do you ask, and why does it matter? It doesn't lessen the hate in your words.

 

[Imagican]

Well Novum, let me ask you this; Are you gay?

No. Why do you ask, and why does it matter? It doesn't lessen the hate in your words.

I will only fall into your 'trap' this second and last time.

It doesn't matter so long as you're not. But if you were, it would explain your defense of this behavior.

You have read NOT ONE word of hate from me concerning homosexuality. Only the 'truth'. That you perceive it as hate goes miles in relating your position. And I appreciate that you would offer such.

Now, instead of meaningless accusations, please point out to the people here what HATE I have offered. I would appreciate it, for the LAST thing that I would want to be perceived as is 'hateful'.

Thanks,

MEC

 

[ArtGuy]

I am NOT here to ridicule ANYONE. But it's only fair that in a discussion such aa this, if you defend such behavior, you allow those that you are discussing this with know your orientation.

I'm straight. Though, like Novum, I fail to see the relevance.

Now, this aside. You jump up and throw out science as the answer to this Christian question. While I myself am an advocate of science in it's ability to offer a physical understanding of the world in which we live, I think that this IS a Christian forum and that this question was asked, in all sincerity, based on Christian doctrine. And, while that Christian doctrine DOES teach us love and forgiveness, it also offers examples of out right sin and evil.

The question of whether or not homosexuality is a genetic condition is one of science. That was the thrust of my response. The question of whether or not homosexuality is a sin is one I was deliberately trying not to address, because I didn't feel like having that discussion.

 

[Novum]

It doesn't matter so long as you're not. But if you were, it would explain your defense of this behavior.

What are you trying to suggest? Are heterosexuals not "allowed" to defend homosexuals?

Now, instead of meaningless accusations, please point out to the people here what HATE I have offered. I would appreciate it, for the LAST thing that I would want to be perceived as is 'hateful'.

Fair enough. Let's see what we have here.

Is there anyone here that does NOT realize that sodomy is a word that is based on a people that existed in history called 'Sodomites'? These dwelt in a community known as Sodom. We KNOW that these had turned their backs on God to the point that NOT ten righteous people could be found among the entirety of the population, and thus, were UTTERLY destroyed.

First, a nitpick. Sodom and Gomorrah are not historical cities. They are biblical myth. I invite you to search the internet for the archaeological, paleontological, or scientific website of your choice - there is no evidence these cities existed.

Now, as for the rest of the post.

If I were an average, regular homosexual man or woman...

Homosexuality is not ONLY wrong, according to the Word is is out-right EVIL.

...how would I feel if someone said this to me?

This PLAINLY states that NO MATTER WHAT ONE MIGHT "SAY", it is a NATURAL FACT that men and women KNOW that homosexuality is WRONG.

...how would I feel if someone said this to me?

Only when a culture COMPLETELY turns it's back on God, do such things flourish.

...how would I feel if someone said this to me?

Thus, one must actually 'fight' to turn away from those things which pertain to the 'natural course' for which they were created.

...how would I feel if someone said this to me?

So this offers that those refereed to in these passages CHOSE to follow the lie. Choose to make 'excuses' and ignore what has been offered. NOT chance coincidences, but OUTRIGHT CHOICE. CHOICE.

...how would I feel if someone said this to me?

Lesbianism, BUT not ONLY lesbians but ALL women that use their bodies in an 'un-natural' manor.

What the heck is an "un-natural manor?" Oh, and...

...how would I feel if someone said this to me?

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

...how would I feel if someone quoted these verses to me about my homosexuality?

For not only does a homosexual 'lie' to others, but by needs, lie to themselves when they make claim that they were 'born' this way.

...how would I feel if someone said this to me?

And, my god, that post goes on and on - there's more, but I stopped here. But really, Imagican, try something for me. Imagine yourself as a homosexual man (or woman). Is that difficult to imagine? It may be, but try regardless.

You are stating, over and over again, that as a homosexual person:

1. You are homosexual because your culture has COMPELTELY turned its back on God.

2. You are "fighting" against the "natural course" from which you were created.

3. Your lifestyle is EVIL.

4. You "lie" to yourself and others when you claim that you were born this way.

Again, the list goes on. Forgive the comparison, and I mean no offense, but the KKK couldn't have done any better were they writing an anti-homosexuality speech. Your post here contains some of the most hateful language I've ever seen written about homosexuality.

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

This is a Christian forum and I know that the word "sin" is not a popular word and speaking againtst homosexuality is not politically colletct.

Christianity is not about popularity. Just because Christians talk about "sin" for what it is, is not wrong or being hateful.

The Bible is very clear on what is right and wrong.

 

[Novum]

This is a Christian forum and I know that the word "sin" is not a popular word and speaking againtst homosexuality is not politically colletct.

Not a popular word? 80%, if not more, of the US is Christian. The single largest religion in the world is Christianity.

...Not a popular word? :o

Just because Christians talk about "sin" for what it is, is not wrong or being hateful.

The Crusaders were slaughtering millions of "infidels" because those heretics were not Christian. The Crusaders weren't wrong or being hateful - really now, what they did was okay because the bible allowed it. Perfectly fine.

Similarly, hate speech about homosexuality isn't really wrong or hateful at all. After all, the bible justifies it, right?

 

[gingercat]

This is a Christian forum and I know that the word "sin" is not a popular word and speaking againtst homosexuality is not politically colletct.

Not a popular word? 80%, if not more, of the US is Christian. The single largest religion in the world is Christianity.

...Not a popular word? :o

Just because Christians talk about "sin" for what it is, is not wrong or being hateful.

The Crusaders were slaughtering millions of "infidels" because those heretics were not Christian. The Crusaders weren't wrong or being hateful - really now, what they did was okay because the bible allowed it. Perfectly fine.

Similarly, hate speech about homosexuality isn't really wrong or hateful at all. After all, the bible justifies it, right?

Novum, didn't we go through this before? You are too young to start to show senile simptoms :-D

 

[Novum]

Novum, didn't we go through this before? You are too young to start to show senile simptoms :-D

Oh, of course. So easy to forget. :roll: ;)

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks Artguy, for offering up some links on the "scientific" aspects of this topic. I will look them over tomorrow. I have no agenda; I just trust God's word on this and believe He had foreknowledge of where the act of homosexuality would lead mankind. I also have reason to believe that some scientific studies may have been falsified to advance the agenda of others, but won't comment anymore until I read your links and go over some of my notes and find my sources.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Are you not a Christian, Novum? While you are not peppering your posts with 'appropriate' scriptures to support your argument (I DO acknowledge the fact that there don't appear to be any) I really do appreciate the human-ness of your posts in regard to this issue. Whatever your belief, I lean more toward your approach than that put forward by professed Christians.

As for Imagican, I'm surprised by the vicious and condemning nature of his responses. I would have expected the application of more reasoning skills and less hysteria from him. I sense there is an agenda present that has little to do with the Bible. In fact, no one would respond in that manner UNLESS there is another agenda driving them that makes it become such a personal one to them. Much of mainstream Christianity has tossed out God's commandments like so much trash. And yet, I see few Christians jumping up and down over that issue with the same fervor as they do whenever this topic is raised.

If the truth be known, this is an issue that doesn't even concern ANYONE else except the homosexual (the individual) and God.

 

[Novum]

Are you not a Christian, Novum?

Nope, not Christian. Born and raised Jewish, went through a number of years of religious apathy starting around age 13, and presently been atheist for the past 4 or 5 years.

While you are not peppering your posts with 'appropriate' scriptures to support your argument (I DO acknowledge the fact that there don't appear to be any) I really do appreciate the human-ness of your posts in regard to this issue. Whatever your belief, I lean more toward your approach than that put forward by professed Christians.

Thanks.

I've always had trouble understanding the particularly violent opposition to homosexuals. What is it about homosexuality that gets people so riled up? Let's say a homosexual couple (men or women, take your pick) moved into a house down the street from you. How would you, personally, be affected? Let's say they then adopt a child. How would you, personally, be affected?

We are, of course, a free country and a somewhat-free forum. Everyone is certainly allowed to say what they will, but that does not mean I have to agree with it - and in this case, it's pretty hard to agree with what I think is very obviously hate speech.

 

[thessalonian]

Sputnik,

Thank you for your intellectual post. :o NOT.

I've know gay men who have turned straight and are quite happily married with kids. It can happen. Did you read my post above. I didn't condemn anyone but gave you quite rational reasons why it doesn't matter what science says on the matter. If you think the Bible is silent on the matter your doing one heck of a job of twisting the scriptures to fit your personal sympathies, which are very misguided.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Homosexuality is definitely a touchy subject. Addressing the issue of homosexuality should be done with respect and love. The only agenda when addressing the issue is to proclaim the truth set forth by the Word of God in love.. Now if one truly loves another person they are going to be straight with the other and declare the truth. That being the case it is perfectly admissible for a Christian to state what the Bible says about homosexuality.

No comes the questionsâ€â€what does the Bible says about homosexuality. The Bible clearly states homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord. It is regarded as a sin. The Bible is also clear that those who are aware of a sin (or sinning period) and continue in that sin are rebelling against God. The Bible also makes it clear that the penalty for all sin is death. If God was only just and not merciful as well all of us would be condemned to hell.

God, however; is not only a God of justice He is also a God of mercy. For that reason He sent His only Son Jesus Christ to die in our place for our sins to make satisfactory payment before God the Father for our sins. In doing that, if we believe in Him (Jesus Christ) we are fully justified for our sins and made right before God. If we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior we are saved from damnation and also enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome our sin. A Christian is no better then a lost person. The only difference now is that a Christian is saved from damnation, set free from the sin nature, but also enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit to over come any sin. So whether it is homosexuality or any other sin, it does not matter what our “genetic†predisposition, or whatever other facts incline us to sin, God can and will help us overcome that sin. To doubt that power is to doubt the power of God. God can overcome any sin, He is that powerful.

So do I agree with the words of Imagine and Thessalonian? If what they state is expressed out of love and in keeping with Biblical truth then yesâ€â€If not then of course not. What the Bible says about homosexuality may seem harsh but it is truth and to lie to another simply to guard their feelings is not loving in the least.


As for these statements:

The Crusaders were slaughtering millions of "infidels" because those heretics were not Christian. The Crusaders weren't wrong or being hateful - really now, what they did was okay because the bible allowed it. Perfectly fine.

Similarly, hate speech about homosexuality isn't really wrong or hateful at all. After all, the bible justifies it, right?

First, I only address them because they caught me eye. Any Christian who claims the Crusades were condoned by God or the Bible should take a step back and prayerfully consider such a stance. I believe that if one where to study The Crusades they would more then likely come to the conclusion that they were not about doing Gods will but more about serving the Idols of the heart.

Now as for speaking hate about homosexualityâ€â€is such an action condoned in the Bibleâ€â€NO! Neither does the Bible condone lying about a matter to protect the feelings of another. A Christian should state the truth about homosexuality with the intent of love.

I am more then likely not going to post anymore in this forum because the only information or opinions I have are based on what the Bible says about the matter. I have pretty much done zero research on what science says about homosexuality and frankly I don’t care. The reason I don’t care is because no matter what science finds if it is contrary to Scripture then I will not accept it. In the words of Martin Luther, “My conscience is captive to the Word of God.â€Â

Please understand the only agenda I have is proclaiming the truth set forth by the Word of God in love. I do so with the intent of showing enough love that I will not “sugar code†or out right lie to protect the feelings of others. Truth sometimes hurts but to proclaim anything else would do greater harm in the long run.

 

[ArtGuy]

Thanks Artguy, for offering up some links on the "scientific" aspects of this topic. I will look them over tomorrow. I have no agenda; I just trust God's word on this and believe He had foreknowledge of where the act of homosexuality would lead mankind. I also have reason to believe that some scientific studies may have been falsified to advance the agenda of others, but won't comment anymore until I read your links and go over some of my notes and find my sources.

I appreciate your open-mindedness on the subject, and look forward to hearing your reply.

May I also ask if you think that sexual orientation being determined prior to birth (ie, through a combination of genetics and hormone-driven in utero development) is incompatible with the idea of homosexuality being a sin?