Homosexuality - Sin? Why?

[SputnikBoy]

Who on this thread is gay?

I don't care. Do you?

 

[Novum]

*sigh*

Once again, JM, read your links. You're not funny this time...just depressing that you continue to post links contrary to your position.

"The lesbian, gay, and bisexual community does not need to have its "deviance" tolerated because its members were born "that way" and "cannot help it." Rather, society must recognize the validity of lesbian and gay lifestyles. We need an end to discrimination, an acceptance of all human beings, and a celebration of diversity, whatever its origins."

 

[JM]

*sigh*

Once again, JM, read your links. You're not funny this time...just depressing that you continue to post links contrary to your position.

"The lesbian, gay, and bisexual community does not need to have its "deviance" tolerated because its members were born "that way" and "cannot help it." Rather, society must recognize the validity of lesbian and gay lifestyles. We need an end to discrimination, an acceptance of all human beings, and a celebration of diversity, whatever its origins."

Ahhh, Nov...once again you prove the Biblical definition of an atheist. : You simply cannot dethrone yourself and your bias to read the articles and get the full sense of what the arthor is saying...instead you pick out a few lines here and there ignoring the rest.

Classic example of what the Bible calls a "fool."

Taken from the conclusions...

The Council for Responsible Genetics, and the author of Exploding the Gene Myth, who says that searching for a gay gene "is not even a worthwhile pursuit...Let me be very clear: I don't think there is any single gene that governs any complex human behavior. There are genetic components in everything we do, and it is foolish to say genes are not involved, but I don't think they are decisive."

The scientific argument for a biological basis for sexual orientation remains weak.

As we have seen, there is no evidence that homosexuality is simply "genetic"--and none of the research itself claims there is.

Tisk, tisk. Pro 24:7 "Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate." I don't expect you to understand when you can't afirm the ultimate reality, God, you can't see sin for what it is. "Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour." Pro 14:9

 

[Novum]

Ahhh, Nov...once again you prove the Biblical definition of an atheist. : You simply cannot dethrone yourself and your bias to read the articles and get the full sense of what the arthor is saying...instead you pick out a few lines here and there ignoring the rest.

Classic example of what the Bible calls a "fool."

Ahhh, JM...once again you prove the common sense definition of a close-minded bigot. : You simply cannot dethrone yourself and your bias to read the articles and get the full sense of what the arthor is saying...instead you pick out a few lines here and there ignoring the rest.

Classic example of what rational people call "intellectually dishonest".

JM, my dear, our best science indicates a genetic link. But in the end it is completely and utterly irrelevant whether or not there exists one. As the article says, it is much more important for our society to recognize and embrace the validity of gay and lesbian lifestyles. We must celebrate diversity, whatever its origins. To do otherwise would be discriminatory at best, bigoted and hateful at worst.

 

[JM]

Ahhh, Nov...once again you prove the Biblical definition of an atheist. : You simply cannot dethrone yourself and your bias to read the articles and get the full sense of what the arthor is saying...instead you pick out a few lines here and there ignoring the rest.

Classic example of what the Bible calls a "fool."

Ahhh, JM...once again you prove the common sense definition of a close-minded bigot. : You simply cannot dethrone yourself and your bias to read the articles and get the full sense of what the arthor is saying...instead you pick out a few lines here and there ignoring the rest.

Classic example of what rational people call "intellectually dishonest".

JM, my dear, our best science indicates a genetic link. But in the end it is completely and utterly irrelevant whether or not there exists one. As the article says, it is much more important for our society to recognize and embrace the validity of gay and lesbian lifestyles. We must celebrate diversity, whatever its origins. To do otherwise would be discriminatory at best, bigoted and hateful at worst.

:smt044 The best you can do is a weak ad hominem and a red herring?

I posted links and info that offers contrary information for a genetic reason and you change subject and have the neve to call me "close minded?" :smt005 Man, you can't see the forrest for the trees...

Diversity is one thing, my background is Scottish and my wife is black [my kids are high yella] and we celebrate diversity...we don't celebrate sin...which brings me right back Pro 24:7 "Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate." I don't expect you to understand when you can't afirm the ultimate reality, God, you can't see sin for what it is. "Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour." Pro 14:9

It is you who is truly closed minded. :smt038

 

[Novum]

It is you who is truly closed minded. :smt038

It is you who seeks to demonize and disinherit an entire subset of the world's population. If the subset in question were murderers, or sociopaths, or Nazis, I would understand and probably even support your standpoint. But homosexuals have committed no crime, they have caused you no trouble, and most importantly, they have every right to live their lives to the fullest - as do the rest of us.

We, as a society, lose nothing from granting these people equal rights. We do, however, lose a great deal by continuing to belittle them, forcing them into an uncomfortable purgatory of sub-citizenship based on arbitrary and scientifically unfounded claims. We are only as strong as our weakest link, and to claim to be leaders of the free world when we oppress our own people so blatantly is hypocrisy at its finest.

You clearly have issues with science, so let's put it aside for now. You offer no reason to justify your inhumane treatment of these people other than an arbitrary interpretation of "sin", an arbitrary concept in a dusty old book of arbitrary rules. You have such a strong, burning hatred inside you and you just yearn to let it out on these people who have done nothing to you in return. I do not envy your hatred, and I am justifiably appalled at your hostility.

As things go, I could think of no better definition of close-mindedness than the man who hates because his elders instructed him to. Your hatred clouds your judgment and your vision, JM. We cannot call ourselves free as long as we continue to clamp down on the liberties of others.

 

[JM]

It is you who seeks to demonize and disinherit an entire subset of the world's population.

It could be that, or it could be I have a real concern for what is going to happen to an entire subset of the world's population...which one do you think it would be? Do I tell you that you're a sinner because I want you to hate me and call me closed minded or because I wish for you Novum to accept Jesus Christ and be saved? I think your bias is clouding your understanding.

If the subset in question were murderers, or sociopaths, or Nazis, I would understand and probably even support your standpoint. But homosexuals have committed no crime, they have caused you no trouble, and most importantly, they have every right to live their lives to the fullest - as do the rest of us.

Again, I witness for God's glory and man's salvation, not to make enemies and be called names. You claim I'm closed minded and your not, but you can't accept my beliefs...what are ya, close minded?

We, as a society, lose nothing from granting these people equal rights.

I disagree. We lose a sense of our God given purpose when we encourage "these people" [to quote you] to believe that personal sexual gratification is the foundation of a union.

We do, however, lose a great deal by continuing to belittle them, forcing them into an uncomfortable purgatory of sub-citizenship based on arbitrary and scientifically unfounded claims. We are only as strong as our weakest link, and to claim to be leaders of the free world when we oppress our own people so blatantly is hypocrisy at its finest.

Not once did I suggest anything you wrote above...but I have a feeling you'll try and pin it on me...classic Nov... :

You clearly have issues with science, so let's put it aside for now.

If you can't handle the facts given to you by your false god science, don't blame it on me.

You offer no reason to justify your inhumane treatment of these people

Nov, are you gay? I think you have me mixed up with someone else, maybe this is a personal issue for you, are you trying to tell us something? I didn't say we should mistreat anyone, I'm only interested in preaching the Gospel to all mankind and all of God's word along with it. Please, stay on point.

other than an arbitrary interpretation of "sin", an arbitrary concept in a dusty old book of arbitrary rules.

Ok, where the rubber hits the road. The natural mind is hostile toward God, didn't I already tell you this? Arbitrary, really? Do you truly believe your 5 senses are trustworthly? The way in which you understand your surroundings is based upon your bias, your persuppositions. Since we all have our own brain and understand the information our sense gather I charge you with having "arbitrary concepts" because they are based upon information that is tainted by your persuppositions.

You have such a strong, burning hatred inside you and you just yearn to let it out on these people who have done nothing to you in return. I do not envy your hatred, and I am justifiably appalled at your hostility.

I haven't said anything hateful. That's false. Nov, my man, I don't hate you either...I want you to have the same joy I do. As I type this I'm smiling, not in a smug self-righteous way, but in a nerdy Ned Flanders kind of way...I truly want you to understand that you're a sinner and need Christ. Have you told a lie? What do you call someone who has told a lie, a liar. Have you ever stole anything? You call them a theif...have you ever look upon someone with lust in your heart? You're guilty of breaking God's rules, not mine based upon my 5 senses, but a real standard given by God. Does it bother you, it sure bothers me, the punishment for this is eternal death. You may not believe this, but when I get to heaven I want you there with me. When I share the Gospel with people I have many chances to fight and argue, but that's not why I share the faith or make posts on the net. God's glory, not mine.

As things go, I could think of no better definition of close-mindedness than the man who hates because his elders instructed him to. Your hatred clouds your judgment and your vision, JM. We cannot call ourselves free as long as we continue to clamp down on the liberties of others.

I'm not hating anyone, but sin and sin and it will be punished...

JM

 

[Novum]

It could be that, or it could be I have a real concern for what is going to happen to an entire subset of the world's population...which one do you think it would be?

I have no idea, JM, and I have no way of knowing without you telling me. Which one is it, and what is it that you believe is "going to happen"?

Do I tell you that you're a sinner because I want you to hate me and call me closed minded or because I wish for you Novum to accept Jesus Christ and be saved? I think your bias is clouding your understanding.

Sin is loosely defined as (correct me if I'm wrong) an offense against your god. It is therefore impossible for the atheist, the buddhist, the muslim, or anyone who lacks a belief in your god to sin against your god.

And JM, I can't read your mind. I really have no idea why you call me a sinner. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

Again, I witness for God's glory and man's salvation, not to make enemies and be called names. You claim I'm closed minded and your not, but you can't accept my beliefs...what are ya, close minded?

You misunderstand. I never said I did not accept your beliefs. They are your own and you have every right to hold whichever beliefs you wish. That does not mean, however, that I must agree with them or avoid discussing them.

I disagree. We lose a sense of our God given purpose when we encourage "these people" [to quote you] to believe that personal sexual gratification is the foundation of a union.

Who said anything about personal sexual gratification? They just want a relationship, like any other couple - heterosexual or otherwise. Some gay couples, just like some heterosexual couples, may choose to have intercourse. It is demonstrably untrue to say that all couples have or even desire intercourse.

If you can't handle the facts given to you by your false god science, don't blame it on me.

What is "false god science"? I am not familiar with this term.

Nov, are you gay?

For the second time, no. You have asked this question repeatedly of anyone defending homosexuality, yet you have dodged the question every time anyone asked you Why. It. Matters. What's the deal, JM?

I think you have me mixed up with someone else, maybe this is a personal issue for you, are you trying to tell us something? I didn't say we should mistreat anyone, I'm only interested in preaching the Gospel to all mankind and all of God's word along with it. Please, stay on point.

It sure is a personal issue for me, and I believe it should be for everyone. I can see no reason why they should be denied their rights, and I'd say it's the obligation of any freedom-loving american to see this issue resolved.

Ok, where the rubber hits the road. The natural mind is hostile toward God, didn't I already tell you this? Arbitrary, really? Do you truly believe your 5 senses are trustworthly? The way in which you understand your surroundings is based upon your bias, your persuppositions. Since we all have our own brain and understand the information our sense gather I charge you with having "arbitrary concepts" because they are based upon information that is tainted by your persuppositions.

Yup, you got that right. Our senses can very frequently (and very easily) be deceived, but they're all we have. Fortunately, we have a vast array of tools at our disposal with the express purpose of providing more accurate, less biased measurements of the world around us.

I haven't said anything hateful. That's false. Nov, my man, I don't hate you either...I want you to have the same joy I do. As I type this I'm smiling, not in a smug self-righteous way, but in a nerdy Ned Flanders kind of way...I truly want you to understand that you're a sinner and need Christ. Have you told a lie? What do you call someone who has told a lie, a liar. Have you ever stole anything? You call them a theif...have you ever look upon someone with lust in your heart? You're guilty of breaking God's rules, not mine based upon my 5 senses, but a real standard given by God. Does it bother you, it sure bothers me, the punishment for this is eternal death. You may not believe this, but when I get to heaven I want you there with me. When I share the Gospel with people I have many chances to fight and argue, but that's not why I share the faith or make posts on the net. God's glory, not mine.

I cannot accept any of this until God is shown to exist or the bible is shown to be true, or both. We go straight back to square one.

I'm not hating anyone, but sin and sin and it will be punished...

Then let your god do all the punishing he feels like. Until then, why not grant all men and women, regardless of sexual orientation, equal rights?

 

[gingercat]

equal rights?

This is a Christian forum; everyone has right to speak up their convictions, not just gays or atheists or whatever!

 

[gingercat]

People - oftentimes young people - do NOT commit suicide over their homosexuality because they're 'putting it on'.

Many, many people commit suiside!!!

It usually stem from family problems. This is my convicition that people who are homosixual have unhealthy sexual family environment. All of them I heard from their family that they were sexually abused or witnessed when they were growing up. Most of us have baggage of family disfuntion. I have many of them too. We just have to learn to cope with them instead of feeling sorry about it and succomb to it. God is watching us how we learn from conflicts and be a good witnesses and examples for others to learn.

 

[Novum]

It usually stem from family problems. This is my convicition that people who are homosixual have unhealthy sexual family environment. All of them I heard from their family that they were sexually abused or witnessed when they were growing up. Most of us have baggage of family disfuntion.

No, sorry. This page at "Prevent Suicide Now" lists a great many factors that have nothing to do with family, while this doesn't list family at all, and the Wikipedia page notes suicide to be almost entirely a mental health issue.

Family may be a partial cause, but it does not appear to at all be a prevalent one.

 

[gingercat]

How do you know that those researches are from gays' point of view and not from objective ones? Did they really look at their family environment?

I believe those researches are biased.

 

[Novum]

How do you know that those researches are from gays' point of view and not from objective ones? Did they really look at their family environment?

I believe those researches are biased.

You would, regardless what I posted. You've already reached your conclusion and, by god, evidence otherwise be damned.

 

[Drew]

As a Christian I choose to accord significant authority to the Scriptures, which I understand to represent homosexual behaviour as sinful. Now, I am certainly open to any arguments to the effect that the Scriptures teach no such thing. This has not been an issue I have studied.

I also like to think that I am committed to understanding the world based on the evidence it provides to me.

AHIMSA has, I believe, at some point, presented a compelling (albeit brief) argument to the effect that homosexual behaviour may have been decried as sinful in the Scriptures specifically because of the nature of society of the time - that homosexual relations in that cultural context may have been largely unhealthy and abusive in nature. But it was the cultural context that produced such a situation, not any inherent sinfulness associated with homosexual behaviour.

If AHIMSA reads this, please correct me if I am misrepresenting the nature of your argument.

As an analogy, please consider what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians about men and long hair:

Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him

I believe that even most fundamentalists see this text as being "for the culture of the times" and not for today. Perhaps, cleanliness problems of the times meant that men were probably better off having short hair. Today, men can have long hair and still keep it clean. I don't really know.

To conclude, I think that we Christians should at least be open to considering arguments like AHIMSA's (if I have captured its general flavour).

It never hurts to explore and think about the reasons that might underlie any Biblical "rules" to make sure that we really understand their applicability. Open-minded exploration of the possibility that we have misunderstood the admonition against homosexual behaviour is a good thing. There are those who will attempt to intimidate people out of such inquiry. However, I think the manifest truth of life is that we are driven to explore, to understand, and this is a healthy thing.

 

[Vic C.]

How do you know that those researches are from gays' point of view and not from objective ones? Did they really look at their family environment?

I believe those researches are biased.

Many studies HAVE been subjective for sure and have been revealed for what they are. How can we rely on a study to be "objective" if it is performed by a person or persons who have been discovered to be homosexual? I trust them to tell me the truth as much as I trust Lee Raymond to tell me the truth about the Oil Industry. :o


It seems no one took my previous post serious, so I will repeat some of it:

... God set the guidlines for this kind of love (eros) when He said:

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him....

...Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh....

Lets back up a moment:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

God blessed the union between man and woman. Please show me ONE place in the Bible where He ever blessed a union between same sexes. He ordained sex primary for the purpose of procreation. He ordained marriage so that sex between a man and woman would be sanctified. Sex between same sexes and sex outside of a lifelong committed relationship is against God's will, thus it is a sin in His eyes.

...and since I am repeating myself...

any deviation of this is "Active promotion of sinful behavior and will not be permitted" as stated in our rules, we cannot allow this line of thinking to continue. You, when signing up here, automatically agreed to our TOS. If you haven't read them, please become familiar wwith them here:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9219

Thanks,
Vic

 

[thessalonian]

Vic,

I believe your point is that a God ordained relationship bears fruit (children). If it is unable to do that it is not a God ordained relationship. This relationship can only be proper when within the bounds of the union between a man and a woman, called marriage. Anything else is fornication.

I agree.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Vic,

I believe your point is that a God ordained relationship bears fruit (children). If it is unable to do that it is not a God ordained relationship. This relationship can only be proper when within the bounds of the union between a man and a woman, called marriage. Anything else is fornication.

I agree.

Hmmm ...interesting. So 'recreational sex' between a married couple that bears no fruit (children) is a no-no, eh? This is not to mention the fact that some women are incapable of conceiving. Some men also have problems in this area. Would they be considered 'sinners' by virtue of their 'inability' to bear fruit? I believe that some extreme groups of Christians DO believe this to be the case, the same as they also call deafness or blindness or some other impairment a sin. There seem to be Christians and 'Christians' (all claiming Bible backing) ...must be most confusing to an atheist.

 

[ArtGuy]

It usually stem from family problems. This is my convicition that people who are homosixual have unhealthy sexual family environment. All of them I heard from their family that they were sexually abused or witnessed when they were growing up. Most of us have baggage of family disfuntion. I have many of them too. We just have to learn to cope with them instead of feeling sorry about it and succomb to it. God is watching us how we learn from conflicts and be a good witnesses and examples for others to learn.

Of the many gay folks I know, not a one of them had anything resembling an "unhealthy sexual family environment". Well, a few of them did after they came out, and were effectively disowned by their loving families, but things were all good beforehand.

I do know a number of straight folks who went through such misfortunes. If anecdotes were the slightest bit relevant, I would take this as strong evidence that people are born gay, and turn straight only after serious sexual abuse. Of course, anecdotes are worthless, and so I don't make this claim.

As to the claim that Christians bash gays so much because they love them and want them to be saved... Being free of sin isn't a prerequisite to getting into heaven. Accepting Jesus as your savior is. If you can be a convicted murderer and get into the pearly gates, I think you can do just fine as a gay man. So if you want to teach the gospel to gays out of an altruistic desire to save them from hell, it's in no way necessary to tell them they're nasty, lustful creatures whose emotions are fake. Doing so is actually going to make them less likely to accept Christianity as true.

This isn't to say that we should accept things that we deem to be sinful. But saying, "Oh, I'm just telling you that you're a disgusting creature with a habit that makes me physically ill" as a way to bring people to the Lord is - how to put it? - stupid beyond belief.

 

[gingercat]

spute,

It seems that you are seeking the loop hole to justify sin.

 

[thessalonian]

Hmmm ...interesting. So 'recreational sex' between a married couple that bears no fruit (children) is a no-no, eh?

I did not say this and it is a false conclusion. The primary purpose of sex is the bearing of children, just as the primary purpose of food is to sustain our bodies. God gives us appetites and pleasures in order to promote the main purpose. This does not in any way say that these secondary effects and purposes are wrong, as long as they do not frustrate the main purpose. Don't try to tell me what my beliefs are. Thanks.

This is not to mention the fact that some women are incapable of conceiving. Some men also have problems in this area. Would they be considered 'sinners' by virtue of their 'inability' to bear fruit?

If the intent is not to forgo having children there is no sin. In fact this is a cross for such couples that have such problems.

I believe that some extreme groups of Christians DO believe this to be the case, the same as they also call deafness or blindness or some other impairment a sin. There seem to be Christians and 'Christians' (all claiming Bible backing) ...must be most confusing to an atheist.

Don't try to lump me in with what others believe. If you will look at Christian history you will see that 99% of this splintering occured when sola scriptura was accepting in the reformation, making every man and his Bible the ultimate authority. It is easy to see why this confusion you speak of has arisen if you will open you mind.

Blessings