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Homosexuality - Sin? Why?

SputnikBoy said:
Hmmm ...interesting. So 'recreational sex' between a married couple that bears no fruit (children) is a no-no, eh? This is not to mention the fact that some women are incapable of conceiving. Some men also have problems in this area. Would they be considered 'sinners' by virtue of their 'inability' to bear fruit? I believe that some extreme groups of Christians DO believe this to be the case, the same as they also call deafness or blindness or some other impairment a sin. There seem to be Christians and 'Christians' (all claiming Bible backing) ...must be most confusing to an atheist.

Yup. You also can't have sex if your wife had her tubes tied for medical reasons, or if she's over the age of 60, or if it's not during those couple days per month that you know she's ovulating. Also, every time you could be having sex that has a strong likelihood of producing offspring and you don't, it's like infanticide.

:lol:
 
gingercat said:
SputnikBoy said:
People - oftentimes young people - do NOT commit suicide over their homosexuality because they're 'putting it on'.

Many, many people commit suiside!!!

So ...??? The issue here is homosexuality and those who commit suicide because they can't cope with their homosexuality.

gingercat said:
It usually stem from family problems.

This is an old chestnut that doesn't hold up. Some homosexuals may well have had family problems. Some heterosexuals may also have had similar family problems. Are we to believe that this made them heterosexual? Do you not see how silly this kind of thinking is?

gingercat said:
This is my convicition that people who are homosixual have unhealthy sexual family environment. All of them I heard from their family that they were sexually abused or witnessed when they were growing up.

So, based on this theory, everyone who was sexually abused becomes a homosexual? This is the psychology of one who didn't complete the course. Yes, some MAY have been abused and - who knows - maybe it DID affect them sexually or/and in other ways. Other similar 'victims', however, may well have gone on to become well adjusted (heterosexual) adults. One cannot use environment as the brush with which to paint the broad picture. Hmmm ...how poetic of me.

gingercat said:
Most of us have baggage of family disfuntion. I have many of them too. We just have to learn to cope with them instead of feeling sorry about it and succomb to it. God is watching us how we learn from conflicts and be a good witnesses and examples for others to learn.

Yes, many of us ARE carrying baggage from family dysfunction. However ...you have ASSUMED that homosexuality is 'the baggage' of family dysfunction and you're running with that idea. In other words, gingercat, you're ignoring everything that has been brought up about genetics or some hitherto unknown gene that may well dispose someone toward an attraction for the same gender.

And Vic, with all due respect this issue DOES need to be discussed with a non-biased (if possible) and adult approach. If the plug is pulled whenever this topic is raised simply because some Christians are touchy about the issue we will never get anywhere. This is a human issue and we can't merely brush it under the carpet with a few scriptures. NONE of the scriptures given on this thread thus far (in large font or not) have addressed the OP, as well intended as they may have been.

I also hope that the TOS was not constructed by someone with a bias against this topic. God is bigger than us and I really DO think He can handle such discussions. Another thing, I truly hope that the views so far given in this dicussion are not seen by the mods as 'promoting' homosexuality. I don't think that anyone has gone out of their way to do that. I do sense, however, that there is such an anti-'gay' sentiment on Christian boards in general that as long as one is not condemning then one is seen as supporting or ...heaven forbid ...promoting the act of homosexuality. One person on this thread believes that, as long as one is not condemning homosexuality as HE is, one must therefore be 'gay'.

Just before I finish up ...I'm somewhat bemused by some of the almost hysterical responses whenever this particular issue is raised. I'm bemused because if the topic of 'lying' was given its own thread, no one would bother to respond. And yet, lying is no less an abomination to God than the scriptures that have been raised to condemn homosexuality. Am I the only one who sees the silliness and the hypocrisy that goes on within Christian circles?
 
gingercat said:
spute,

It seems that you are seeking the loop hole to justify sin.

Hi gingercat. You know the way that you so often tell others that you don't wish to discuss an issue with them and you wish them 'good day'? Well, I'm about to do the same with you. I will not debate issues with closed minded people. Good day.
 
SputnikBoy said:
gingercat said:
spute,

It seems that you are seeking the loop hole to justify sin.

Hi gingercat. You know the way that you so often tell others that you don't wish to discuss an issue with them and you wish them 'good day'? Well, I'm about to do the same with you. I will not debate issues with closed minded people. Good day.

You are the one with the closed mind about Jesus' teachings. You don't seem to trust Jesus teachings. What kind of faith is it? This is Christian forum. We live by faith!!!! It is so outrageouse to have this kind of mentality as Christians. If alchoholics can overcome genetic traits then so can homosexuals. It is so simple. Why do you make it sound more difficult than alchoholism?
 
ArtGuy said:
Yup. You also can't have sex if your wife had her tubes tied for medical reasons, or if she's over the age of 60, or if it's not during those couple days per month that you know she's ovulating. Also, every time you could be having sex that has a strong likelihood of producing offspring and you don't, it's like infanticide.

:lol:

Sex is a gift from God for married couple!!! You can have sex without eggs or ovulating!!!
 
SputnikBoy said:
Thessalonian said:
Vic,

I believe your point is that a God ordained relationship bears fruit (children). If it is unable to do that it is not a God ordained relationship. This relationship can only be proper when within the bounds of the union between a man and a woman, called marriage. Anything else is fornication.

I agree.

Hmmm ...interesting. So 'recreational sex' between a married couple that bears no fruit (children) is a no-no, eh? This is not to mention the fact that some women are incapable of conceiving. Some men also have problems in this area. Would they be considered 'sinners' by virtue of their 'inability' to bear fruit? I believe that some extreme groups of Christians DO believe this to be the case, the same as they also call deafness or blindness or some other impairment a sin. There seem to be Christians and 'Christians' (all claiming Bible backing) ...must be most confusing to an atheist.


No Spunt, NOT AT ALL. We are certainly to enjoy sex with our spouses. And, to take this a step further, I believe that it was Paul that gave us the part of the Word that says that we are NOT to deny one another or 'abstain' from sex unless mutually agreed upon by both parties of the marriage. What seems to be so confusing to many here is that a man and a woman were designed FOR each other, thus, once married, they become ONE. This is NOT possible for a man and a man, nor a woman and a woman. I'm am NOT God, so, please don't blame me OR Him for creating nature in the WAY He chose.

And, the 'fruit' that a marriage bears is NOT necessarily children. The 'fruit' is the love between the two and their becoming ONE IN LOVE. Children are NOTHING more than God's will, so NO, someone unable to perform sexually or unable to bear children is NOT the ONLY 'fruit'.

But, I'll tell you one thing, no matter how hard a 'gay couple' may try, they can NEVER bear a child. And, in my opinion, are not morally able to raise them. Sociologist have recognized the need for a MAN and a WOMAN to offer the role models needed for a child to be given the understanding and nurturing from EACH that is NEEDED for a healthy understanding of 'family'. Regardless of 'how well' they can be cared for monetarily, or even the amount of love that is offered a child, the simple nature that it takes a MAN and a WOMAN to produce a child, it takes the two to offer what the child NEEDS MOST, a mother's influence AND a father's influence.

And NO need to jump up and down and tell me ALL about ALL the successful people that have been raised in single parent homes. I would NEVER say that there MUST be TWO parents. What I have stated is nothing more than offering that it's more conducive to running to have TWO legs. It can certainly be done by those with only one, but they would NOT stand a chance against a group of runners with two legs. So, with this in mind, let me add one more thing; the Word. For those out there that may have NEVER read it, perhaps to understand how God feels about homosexuality, read it.

Now, the Christ said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand causes you to sin cut it off. I say that if your, you know what, offends you, cutting it off may be an option. But, better to lose these than to be cast in to the lake of fire, for there WILL be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
 
Imagican said:
Now, the Christ said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand causes you to sin cut it off. I say that if your, you know what, offends you, cutting it off may be an option. But, better to lose these than to be cast in to the lake of fire, for there WILL be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

I suspect that this thinking would quickly find the world blind, mutilated, and sterile.
 
One thing that I'm very sick of hearing is the continuous comparisons between homosexuality and addictions such as alcoholism and drug addiction. These are demonstratably very different. In the case of homosexuality, this is declared to be a sin by merit of scripture alone, if that when one considers that homosexuality wasn't a concept in biblical times. It can not be demonstrated that homosexuality is actually harmful to anyone (which is the measure of morality). What can only be demonstrated is that, under certain circumstances, being a homosexual can possibly be more harmful. If one engages in promiscuos sex then one is more likely to contract a dangerous disease. However, this does not establish homosexuality as immoral, rather, it is a statement against promiscuous sex.

Secondly, homosexuality is not an addiction. If you continue to look at homosexuals as sex addicts, then you will never see this issue clearly. Yes, there can be homosexual sex addicts, just as there are heterosexual sex addicts. However, a homosexual is one who desires to be united with a person of the same sex, this includes emotional, physical and spiritual levels of connection. You can not compare a loving homosexual couple to alchoholics or drug addicts any more than you can draw a paralell between that and a husband and a wife. Homosexuality is far beyond desires of the flesh, for it extends right into the heart of companionship.

How can you say that asking a person to give up his self-destructive habit of walking in drunk every night, or driving drunk, or even becoming abusive...is the same as asking someone to give up their life companion whom they love with every bit of their heart?
 
AHIMSA said:
In the case of homosexuality, this is declared to be a sin by merit of scripture alone,

Christians discernment supposed to come from the Bible ONLY. PERIOD!!!!

That's why we are called Christians!!!!

If we don't trust the Bible, we are not Christians!!!

I used to be non-believer for a long time and relyed on secular mentality and failed miserably; now I am following the Bible and have happy big family!!!!

Praise the Lord. Thank you Jesus for your teachings!!! :angel: :angel: :angel:

Let me ask you AHISMA, are you a Christian?
 
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People Can Change runs online support groups where men who have left homosexuality and resolved same-sex attraction problems give and receive support. We strive to create a "safe container" where we can learn from each other, a place where those who are struggling with unwanted homosexuality provide mutual support to each other without judgment or criticism.

All men who are conflicted over their sexuality and sincerely want to know what it takes to change to a more heterosexual orientation, and want to give and receive mutual support for change, are welcome. Men who have always been heterosexual are also welcome, on condition that their sole motivations are to give support and increase their own understanding, compassion and sense of brotherhood with us. All others, especially those hostile to our desire for change, or hostile toward those dealing with homosexuality, will not be allowed.

These are not religious groups. Men of all faiths -- or no faith -- are welcome. We do not discuss or debate religion, although men are welcome to share their own personal spiritual journeys and what is helpful for them.

To learn more about how the groups work, and how to join, click here.


http://www.peoplecanchange.com/Support_Group_Join.htm



edited: to correct broken link
 
Root Causes, Homosexual Consequences

Survey on Root Causes

In 2004, People Can Change surveyed the members of its online support groups to determine what they perceived to have been the most significant causes of their developing homosexual feelings in their own lives. We asked about 25 possible factors -- everything from biology to personal choice. More than 200 men responded.

http://www.peoplecanchange.com/Root_Problems.htm
 
What Didn't Work


Denying or Suppressing It
Pretending there was nothing amiss in our lives was like ignoring a growing tumor. Refusing to deal with our homosexual problems ensured that they would continue to thrive and multiply. We could resist for a time. We could look the other way. But that only gave our problems time to fester and grow worse. We could abstain from homosexual behavior, but that didn't resolve the feeling. Avoiding the problem could never fix the problem.

Using Willpower
We certainly never consciously chose to be sexually attracted to men. Neither could we simple choose to change and be attracted to women instead. At best, willpower could only help us resist the urge to indulge whatever sexual desire we felt in the moment. It could not bring long-term healing.

Rather than work on our will, or our mental control, we found it much more effective to work on our heart, or our emotional and spiritual desire.

Trying to Pray It Away
Almost all of us at one time hoped and prayed that God would suddenly change us, that if only we had enough faith, we would wake up one day and find our homosexual desires miraculously gone. Yes, those are those who testify of such miraculous, sudden recovery, but it certainly doesn't seem to be the norm -- and certainly not without a lot of hard, personal and spiritual work leading up to that "overnight" recovery.

In fact, many of us came to see that we had been praying the wrong prayer for many years! Rather than asking God to change us, we needed him to show us the steps he wanted us to take toward change -- and then trust him enough to take the very steps we feared most. We needed to be humble enough to learn the lessons that the struggle was designed to teach us -- and then move on.

As Ben writes:

"Like so many others, I once begged God to change me with a single touch, the way he healed the blind man. I prayed and read scriptures hoping that would change me, but all the while I remained locked in isolation and shame. Ultimately, I learned that trying to heal my emotional wounds through spirituality alone was like putting a cast on my arm when I had the flu. I was treating the wrong problem. I was emotionally broken and weak, but in many ways spiritually strong. Trying to strengthen myself spiritually, alone in my room in prayer, wasn't going to heal the isolation I felt in the world of men. I started to change when I saw the Lord as a guide who would lead me through a healing journey if I did it his way, not mine."


For most of us, praying and building a renewed spiritual life would become the fuel that powered our journey out of homosexuality and the map that guided our way -- it was seldom our journey in itself.

Indulging It
At one time, many of us were convinced that indulging our desires for homosexual expression was the only way to satisfy them and get relief from constant yearning for male attention and affection. And in fact it did bring relief -- momentarily. But those of us who did indulge those desires often found that, when the fleeting embrace or erotic experience was over, we felt more lonely and desperate than before. The "hole" inside our souls that we were constantly trying to fill was deeper and emptier than ever, and we were desperate for more. It became easy for us to fall into addiction and dependency.

Even those of us who found a romantic partner who seemed like he would always be there for us often found we could never get enough of him to fill the emptiness inside ourselves. The true need buried deep inside was a little boy's need for love and acceptance from his father and from the other boys and to fully and proudly embrace his masculinity. Sex with another man only alienated us from ever really finding the real solution to our needs.

"Gay Pride" or "Gay Affirmation"
For some of us, it seemed for a time that the answer we were looking for was to accept and embrace our supposedly innate gay identity, "come out of the closet" as a homosexual and claim "gay pride." In fact, those of us who did so found it to be an exhilarating, freeing experience -- temporarily. No longer were we crippled by vacillation. No longer were we hiding in shame. No longer would we beat ourselves up with self-criticism and so-called "homophobia." At last we were "out and proud."

But no matter how right it was to free ourselves from shame, self-ridicule and self-hate, and no matter how much relief we found in finally getting off the fence and making a decision -- any decision -- homosexuality still felt wrong for us. Some of us denied this for a long time but we could ultimately lie to ourselves no longer. For us, it just felt wrong. Attempting to resolve our homosexual struggles by killing our conscience felt like it was killing our souls instead.

Almost universally, we felt alienated from God and our spiritual lives. We were out of integrity with our deeply held values and beliefs that had always anchored our lives. We felt more alienated than ever from the masculine world of straight men.

Sadly, most of us also found far less healing, acceptance and unconditional love among gay men than we had imagined we would. A common experience among us what that we experienced the gay world as a place that was fraught with promiscuity, lust, obsession with youth and physical appearance, addiction to sex, alcohol and lust. We found judgment, pettiness, spiritual darkness and brokenness. Although we experienced small pieces of healing there at times, for the most part, it only deepened the emotional and spiritual emptiness inside.

Shame, Self-Ridicule and Self-Hate
For those of us who once "came out" as a homosexual and embraced "gay pride," we found it immensely freeing to release the shame, self-ridicule and self-hate that had crippled us for so long. Indeed, letting go of these destructive emotions was a vital part of our healing for all of us. Until we did, they entrapped us, disabled us and obstructed real change. But we found it was counterproductive to embrace an openly gay identity and lifestyle in an attempt to free ourselves of shame and hate, because doing so required us to suppress our conscience and surrender our values. We found instead that it is ultimately far more healing and freeing to "come out" as a man who is courageously reclaiming his innate masculine identity, brotherly love for other men and spiritual connection to God.

Isolation and Secrecy
As long as we kept our "shameful secret" hidden and attempted to fix it in isolation and secrecy, we made little or no progress. No wonder. Problems relating to others do not heal in isolation without relationships. Fear of trusting others cannot be overcome without taking the calculated risk to trust.

Indeed, we found that what we wanted most -- authentic male bonding -- in some ways, we actually feared the most. Emotional intimacy felt much more risky than sexual intimacy. So we used lust and sex to give the illusion of intimacy without having to take the emotional risk of opening our hearts to another man, especially a straight man.

Trying to Force Opposite-Sex Attraction
Some of the worst, albeit well-meaning, advice we ever received was to resolve our homosexual feelings by dating women or looking at female pornography to arouse interest. We already loved women - as sisters. We identified with them - too much so.

Our problem was not generally with women, so that's not where the solution lay. Our problem was with heterosexual men and masculinity, and with our own maleness. We needed to spend more time with heterosexual men, not with women. Before we could concern ourselves with attraction to women, we had to feel like more of a man. We needed to ground ourselves much more firmly in a male identity and in the male world. We needed to overcome our "heterophobia" with men.

That is where we found healing.

http://www.peoplecanchange.com/What_Didn't_Work.htm


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Masculinity
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/Masculinity.htm

Authenticity
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/Authenticity.htm

Need Fulfillment
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/Need_Fulfill.htm

Surrender
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/Surrender.htm

Many people have sought to change unwanted homosexual feelings. Some have succeeded completely. Others, only in part, or not at all. Many, perhaps most, have become frustrated along the way at times when they did not see results as quickly or as completely as they would have liked. Some give up, apparently convinced that since whatever they have tried has not worked (yet), nothing will ever work.

In our own lives, we found that we hit roadblocks to change when our efforts were not as broad or as comprehensive as needed. This happened, for instance, when we focused all our efforts on just one aspect of healing - on spirituality, for example - but resisted necessary work on overcoming estrangement from men and masculinity, or on healing emotional wounds of the past, or on discovering and meeting our authentic needs.

We also hit roadblocks when we were unwilling to do whatever it takes, and everything it takes, to change. "I want to change, as long as no one ever finds out I have this struggle," some of us said. Or, "I want to change, but only if God does all the work," or, "but only if I don't have to break out of my comfort zone," or "but only if… (fill in the blank)." As they say in the Twelve Step programs, "Half measures availed us nothing." Often it turned out that the very thing we were most resistant to changing was the most important thing about ourselves we had to change!

In his book, Growth Into Manhood (Harold Shaw Publishers, 2000), Alan Medinger writes (page 239) that homosexuality is not a single problem or conflict, but a group of problems that together produce homosexual attractions. Each of these problems must be dealt with individually, he writes. So it was that we found that reducing or eliminating homosexual feelings and causing heterosexual desires to develop required life changes in four broad, overlapping areas:

http://www.peoplecanchange.com/MANSIntro.htm


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Christians discernment supposed to come from the Bible ONLY. PERIOD!!!!

That's why we are called Christians!!!!

If we don't trust the Bible, we are not Christians!!!

Thats it? Thats your entire response to my post?! If you consider anything other than what you've been told then you're no longer a good Christian?

Firstly, this idea that you have to take everything that Bible says at literal, face value is only one version of being a Christian. There are many devoted Christians who both trust the Bible as a source of Godly wisdom and instruction, but do not take every command at literal value.

When your presented with a moral question, and you answer it by opening a single book and by reading a single sentence or paragraph...and you're THINKING STOPS THERE, I would say there's a serious problem.

I was once a "Christian", but I no longer hold to such labels. My personal faith journey has carried me out of them.

As for People Can Change:

I'm not going to say its impossible for some people to change. I believe that there are former homosexuals. But I believe this has much to do with the diversity of human sexuality. I think there is much evidence to point towards a scale of human sexuality. We tend to think everyone has to be either "straight or gay", when in reality, all kinds of people fall in between. I think its likely that some people can reverse their sexual feelings, while I also think its clear that there are others who can not. But I doubt most of you will be able to swallow this concept, you're not even able to deal with the existence of two sexualities, never mind moving towards the model of a scale.

The site said this:
Homosexuality just wasn't right for us. It conflicted with our deeply held beliefs, our life goals, and our intrinsic sense of our true, authentic selves.

I agree, for these people, homosexuality must truly have been a bind. Yet what of all the people who feel no conflict, who know this is their true self? For me, my sexuality feels perfectly natural, it conflicts with nothing inside me, my only problem is my fear of how others will look down on me when they know. While these people claim that their sexuality was a burden on them, there are homosexuals who say their burden lies in the pressure to change. While there is documentation of people who changed their sexuality, there is also documentation of the damage such therapies can do to homosexuals.

Instead of everything being an "either or" scenario (as so many seem to love on this board) Isn't it possible that some people can change their sexuality, and need to, while others can't and shouldn't try? Shouldn't we be content to let people lead the direction of their own lives without our constant interferring?
 
Okay, I have to step in. This argument needs a Christian who is not prejudice. I can't have people thinking we are all like this.

The argument goes like this: "God condemns homosexuality in the Bible, for no apparent reason but we still must follow God's commandments and hate homosexuality." That's a fine argument and I would support it but for one reason -- does the Scriptures really condemn homosexuality? I'm still not 100% sure of this myself but to the best of my knowledge the Scriptures don't even mention homosexuality. Two words commonly translated homosexual, sodomite, etc. are "Arsenokoités" and "Malakos." From my research I came to the conclusion that these two words do not mean homosexual. I don't have the time to go into why they don't but you can read an excellent article here: http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html

If those two words do not mean Homosexual, then that leaves us with Romans 1. This is such a tricky verse and it's impossible for me to determine what is really being meant here, so I refuse to condemn the entirety of homosexuality based on a waivery verse. All that leaves me with is Love to go on. I really cannot comprehend how Love in any sense can ever be a bad thing.

"There is a love of friends between us. Our slogan is to love and it's not important whom to love. We want to say that a boy can love a boy and a girl can love a girl. If all people would love each other, it would be easier to live in this world. If people are lead by hatred and evil, nothing good would happen from this." -- Yulia Volkova
 
AHIMSA said:
There are many devoted Christians who both trust the Bible as a source of Godly wisdom and instruction, but do not take every command at literal value.

Of course there are many, many that practice 'take a pick' type of faith. I don't believe that is biblical and this is my position. I speak my conviction.
 
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Being a Christian doesn't exclude giving up your old nature.

Ephesians 4:17-19
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

====================================


Excuses, Excuses.....
All the fleshly old nature wants to do is give excuses!

We also hit roadblocks when

we were unwilling to do whatever it takes,

and everything it takes, to change.



"I want to change,
as long as no one ever finds out I have this struggle," some of us said.

Or,
"I want to change,
but only if God does all the work,"

or,
"but only if I don't have to break out of my comfort zone,"

or
"but only if… (fill in the blank)."





As they say in the Twelve Step programs,

"Half measures availed us nothing."


Often it turned out that

the very thing we were

most resistant to changing

was the most important thing about ourselves

we had to change!



http://www.peoplecanchange.com/MANSIntro.htm

excerpts quoted from:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=263337#263337
 
My god Relic, are you just posting entire websites as an "argument" now? And really, the obnoxious large fonts and colored text do not provide normative force.
 
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