Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Yes, yes I did. It really should say Oct. 12, not that it matters.Bick said:
So on the one hand you state that the dead cease to exist but on the other you state that "God allowed Samuel's spirit to leave [p]aradise". Besides the contradiction, where is paradise if it is not in heaven?Bick said:
L
LadyInHim
Guest
Some things cannot be understood with our carnal minds. When we submit our lives to the Lord and become born again, we understand things spiritually. When we get saved we renew or minds and we live by faith. And, through faith we believe that things we hope for will become evident. The Lord is faithful to those who love him and keep his commandments, and therefore reveals himself to us. Holy poeple of God know that every word of the Bible is true and we learn the mysteries of the Bible as we mature in Christ. So, whether one believes or believes not is a personal choice.
n2thelight
Member
Paul gives us the answer to this question in I Corinthians
I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.
Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.
It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.
I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.
Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.
It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.
Really? Who told you that? Are you inserting the Jewish meanings of the words; the teachings of the scribes and the Pharisees? That's not a very wise thing to do. Strictly speaking, the words for 'spirit' and 'soul' don't have a Jewish or a Greek translation as if men know these things a priori. I'm quite happy with the work of the translators and your argument is wasted for the power of God is such that every man from every nation can come to the knowledge of God. It's not about accurately translating the words of God according to the knowledge of men, for what do men know about the spirit and the soul except what God reveals to them? If you're worried about translations, don't be. The words of God cannot be contained in the ordinary sense. You can't define the power of God. When Jesus said, 'The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak' he was saying the flesh doesn't follow the words of God. Intellectually we know what we should do but the body doesn't allow us to do it. The disciples fell asleep. They were willing to stay up but the flesh didn't allow it. Again, from the Old Testament, 'The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD searching all his innermost parts. The innermost part is the 'soul'. Indeed, Paul says the 'Holy Spirit' searches everything, even the depths of God; his Soul. If the 'spirit' is the lamp, then the 'light' in it will be the light of God; Jesus Christ. To get understanding, a man must have the intelligence and the ability to wholly follow the words of God. Then the 'light' in you, the 'lamp', will be light. But if the light in you is darkness, then your whole body will be full of darkness. Again, this concept of the 'lamp' and the 'light' is repeated in Rev. 21:23, where Christ will be the 'lamp' and 'the glory of God' will be the 'light'. Finally, the idea that 'ability and intelligence' is what we mean by 'spirit' comes from the words of the LORD; what he said to Moses concerning Bez'alel, 'I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship' Ex. 31:3. By my 'spirit', by the intelligence and the ability given me, I try to give men the knowledge that comes from God. It comes from my depths, from my soul; a spring of living water.
Very interesting but don't let the light in you be darkness. What you are saying is the work of the scholars. Don't let this be in you a case of the blind following the blind for they do not know what they are doing.
Eli'hu said, 'it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty that makes him understand'. What is it that sets us apart from the animals? What sort of spirit did man receive that makes him understand? Is it not our intelligence and our ability to follow God that sets us apart? By understanding and knowledge God created the world and he gives us the spirit, the ability and the intelligence to follow him; to find the knowledge of God. Jesus commanded us to seek. Those who seek, find. To those who knock, the door is opened. Stay away from the scholars and the wannabe scholars, rad. They make void the words of God. To them the words of God are the subject of debate. I've seen their works on TV mostly. They are an abomination.
Explain what part of you is identified as the soul?The mind?The intellect?The personality?The self-awareness of consciousness?
All of these items have been found in neuro-science research to be the by-products of the working brain.They arise from the physical brain not the other way around.So what is the soul?What makes you you is your working physical brain not some ghost in the head. :-D
All of these items have been found in neuro-science research to be the by-products of the working brain.They arise from the physical brain not the other way around.So what is the soul?What makes you you is your working physical brain not some ghost in the head. :-D
handy said:
I'm not sure if anyone has provided the answer I'm about to put forth, but here it goes. My belief is that every soul issues forth from God. To question whether we have a spirit is to question the existence of the Spirit of God. When we are born our spirit is given a body. When Christians die, their spirit returns to God. I'm not certain what happens to unbelievers. So while our bodies decay, our spirits reside with God in the Third Heaven until the resurrection. Then our spirits will receive a new body, and we will live on a new earth in a new Second Heaven (cosmos). That's just my take on it anyway.
Packrat said:
Innovative and creative, Packrat...Sadly without biblical support!
Don't the Mormons believe this?
The Bible is simple on this matter. The 'soul' is what man becomes. The 'nephesh' means 'life, living being. By combining body and breath, man became a conscious being. When man's breath 'goeth forth', he ceases to become a living soul. Man waits in the grave until the resurreciton call when he receives his body so he may enter the kingdom for 'flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God'.
This is why resurrection is so important and necessary! It is creation anew! It is when eternal life is realized. Were it not for the resurrection, man would die in his sins and eternal life would never be given.
By giving man immortality at death as a disembodied 'soul', the power and importance of the resurrection is made meaningless and Pauls' continual emphasis of arising to 'life' is completely redundant.
guibox said:Innovative and creative, Packrat...Sadly without biblical support!
Don't the Mormons believe this?
I really don't know what the Mormons believe. As for my comments, Paul was caught up into the Third Heaven. Why only the Third Heaven? Why not the Fourth? Is there a fourth? I've never found Scriptural evidence for a fourth heaven or even for seven heavens. If I have, I've obviously forgotten about it. I had done a bit of researching on the use of heaven and heavens. I finally had come to the conclusion that the first heaven was the upper atmosphere, the second heaven was the cosmos (where the planets and stars reside), and the third heaven was where angelic beings resided with God because of Paul's mention of being caught up into the Third Heaven which then goes on to be assigned the word paradise.
As for my mention of the soul returning to God, I came to that conclusion from this verse:
The dust of the body returns from whence it came just as the spirit returns to the Spirit of God from whence it came. I'm not saying that we're divine or that we ourselves are God. We are limited in many ways in our own powers, morals, and abilities compared to God. Just how that is I do not know. In order to know how our spirit is separate from God's, I would first have to understand what a spirit is - what it is made of (if anything), etc.
There also being a new heaven and a new earth when all things are made anew seems to me to be talking about a new cosmos and a new planet - not a new Heaven where God and the angels are often portrayed as residing.
I used to believe that when we died our spirit slept apart from God, but I no longer believe this. When we die, I believe that our spirit (the spirit of Christians at least) returns to God. Do we remain in a state of unconsciousness? I am uncertain on that.
Unlike the common notion people hold of being resurrected and residing with God in the Third Heaven for eternity, I do not believe this. I believe we will reside in a new cosmos on another planet - not in Heaven with God. When Jesus purportedly made the comment about the thief being with him in paradise, I believe he was speaking about his soul being in the Third Heaven (which as I've already shown was ascribed the name of paradise) with God.
Packrat said:
The problem here, packrat, is that the 'spirit' here is translated as the 'ruach' which is literally 'breath' or 'air'. Ecclesiastes also says that animals have the 'ruach' too. Ecclesiastes 3 also says that the spirit of all men go up to God who gave it, not merely Christians. The context of Ecclesiastes 12 also implies that it is all men.
Second, the 'ruach/spirit' is not the 'nephesh/soul'. The spirit goes back to God but it is not the soul as is traditionally taught to be the 'consicous immoral essence of man'.
guibox said:
If you're referring to Ecclesiastes 3:19, my Bible reads in part, "For humans and animals both breathe the same air, and both die..." In my opinion ruach has a number of meanings, one being breath and the other being spirit. For example, the Holy Spirit is called the Ruach ha'Kodesh. I doubt that God is made simply of breath or air.
As to Ecclesiastes 12, the spirits of all men - Christian or not - return to God? Do you believe this is some sort of spirit recycling? What would you say a spirit is or what distinction would you make between a spirit and a soul with the knowledge that the Holy Spirit of God is known as the Ruach ha'Kodesh?
Quote from PACKRAT:
I really don't know what the Mormons believe. As for my comments, Paul was caught up into the Third Heaven. Why only the Third Heaven? Why not the Fourth? Is there a fourth? I've never found Scriptural evidence for a fourth heaven or even for seven heavens. If I have, I've obviously forgotten about it. I had done a bit of researching on the use of heaven and heavens. I finally had come to the conclusion that the first heaven was the upper atmosphere, the second heaven was the cosmos (where the planets and stars reside), and the third heaven was where angelic beings resided with God because of Paul's mention of being caught up into the Third Heaven which then goes on to be assigned the word paradise.
MY COMMENTS: As for Paul being caught "up" to third heaven, I would disagree.
First: "Paradise" unfortunately has been associated with "heaven", maybe because of this verse, maybe because of "tradition".
Using a concordance, we find that the word "paradise" is used only three times in the Scriptures: Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4 and Rev. 2:7. Young's Concordance defines "paradise" as "park, garden ground."
Quoting from Vines Bible Dictionary: "paradeisos" (transliteration from Greek) is an Oriental word ...denoting the parks of Persian kings and nobles."
With this in mind let us study the three scriptures:
If the normal Bible version is used, say the KJV, Luke 23:43 reads, "And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, today thou shalt be with me in paradise.'"
Maybe you know this: in the original manuscripts, or copies, until about the ninth century A.D., there were no punctuations. The comma in front of "today" was the opinion of the compilers. It could have (and should have IMO) been after "today" which would then be a Hebrew idiom, or expression, used to express great importance or solemnity. See Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11; 8:1, 11, 19; 9:1, 3, etc
Thus, the words could read, "Truly I say unto you this day, you will be with me in the paradise."
Of great importance is to understand the question the believing thief asked Jesus. Verse 23:42 reads, "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
The thief actually believed that Jesus was the Messiah and would come into his kingdom! And Jesus honors that faith by promising that he would be with Him in the paradise.
Will restored Israel and Jerusalem in the millennium be like a garden, a paradise? You bet!
Isa. 35:1, 2, "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebannon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God."
Isa. 41:18: "I will open rivers in high places and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water."
Ezek. 36: 30, "And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen."
Ezek. 36:34, 35, "And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, 'This land that was desolate is become like the garden (paradise) of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced and inhabited." There are a number of other references.
Also, from the Greek Text, the article "the" is before "paradise" in the ref. verse above.
What does this mean? It means Jesus is saying that the thief would be with Him in THE paradise (garden-park) of the restored Israel.
Now this makes sense to me, for Jesus was dead and in the tomb for three days and nights, and could not have been with the thief. The thief died in hope of being resurrected and being with Jesus Messiah in the paradise of the restored Jerusalem; and his request will be granted.
I actually answered first the "thief on the cross" question.
Concerning 2 Cor 12:1-4 and Paul's vision: His words should read that he was "caught away" not "caught up". Check this out in any Greek-English interlinear NT.
From Young's Literal Translation: "To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away to the third heaven; and I have known such a man....that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak."
It is my opinion that Paul, in spirit--in a vision, was caught away to the future third heaven and third earth, in time, not "up" as to some third layer of heaven.
"The paradise" would be the paradise (park or garden) described a little in Rev. 2:7 "...the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God."
And further described in Rev. 22:1-2, YLT, "And he showed me a pure river of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and the Lamb: in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve manner of fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations."
Bick
I really don't know what the Mormons believe. As for my comments, Paul was caught up into the Third Heaven. Why only the Third Heaven? Why not the Fourth? Is there a fourth? I've never found Scriptural evidence for a fourth heaven or even for seven heavens. If I have, I've obviously forgotten about it. I had done a bit of researching on the use of heaven and heavens. I finally had come to the conclusion that the first heaven was the upper atmosphere, the second heaven was the cosmos (where the planets and stars reside), and the third heaven was where angelic beings resided with God because of Paul's mention of being caught up into the Third Heaven which then goes on to be assigned the word paradise.
MY COMMENTS: As for Paul being caught "up" to third heaven, I would disagree.
First: "Paradise" unfortunately has been associated with "heaven", maybe because of this verse, maybe because of "tradition".
Using a concordance, we find that the word "paradise" is used only three times in the Scriptures: Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4 and Rev. 2:7. Young's Concordance defines "paradise" as "park, garden ground."
Quoting from Vines Bible Dictionary: "paradeisos" (transliteration from Greek) is an Oriental word ...denoting the parks of Persian kings and nobles."
With this in mind let us study the three scriptures:
If the normal Bible version is used, say the KJV, Luke 23:43 reads, "And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, today thou shalt be with me in paradise.'"
Maybe you know this: in the original manuscripts, or copies, until about the ninth century A.D., there were no punctuations. The comma in front of "today" was the opinion of the compilers. It could have (and should have IMO) been after "today" which would then be a Hebrew idiom, or expression, used to express great importance or solemnity. See Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11; 8:1, 11, 19; 9:1, 3, etc
Thus, the words could read, "Truly I say unto you this day, you will be with me in the paradise."
Of great importance is to understand the question the believing thief asked Jesus. Verse 23:42 reads, "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
The thief actually believed that Jesus was the Messiah and would come into his kingdom! And Jesus honors that faith by promising that he would be with Him in the paradise.
Will restored Israel and Jerusalem in the millennium be like a garden, a paradise? You bet!
Isa. 35:1, 2, "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebannon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God."
Isa. 41:18: "I will open rivers in high places and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water."
Ezek. 36: 30, "And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen."
Ezek. 36:34, 35, "And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, 'This land that was desolate is become like the garden (paradise) of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced and inhabited." There are a number of other references.
Also, from the Greek Text, the article "the" is before "paradise" in the ref. verse above.
What does this mean? It means Jesus is saying that the thief would be with Him in THE paradise (garden-park) of the restored Israel.
Now this makes sense to me, for Jesus was dead and in the tomb for three days and nights, and could not have been with the thief. The thief died in hope of being resurrected and being with Jesus Messiah in the paradise of the restored Jerusalem; and his request will be granted.
I actually answered first the "thief on the cross" question.
Concerning 2 Cor 12:1-4 and Paul's vision: His words should read that he was "caught away" not "caught up". Check this out in any Greek-English interlinear NT.
From Young's Literal Translation: "To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away to the third heaven; and I have known such a man....that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak."
It is my opinion that Paul, in spirit--in a vision, was caught away to the future third heaven and third earth, in time, not "up" as to some third layer of heaven.
"The paradise" would be the paradise (park or garden) described a little in Rev. 2:7 "...the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God."
And further described in Rev. 22:1-2, YLT, "And he showed me a pure river of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and the Lamb: in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve manner of fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations."
Bick
Packrat said:
It doesn't make any sense to say that 'man's ruach that goes forth (Psalms 146:4) is the breath but the 'ruach that goes back to God who gave it' (Ecclesiastes 12:7) is the immortal soul. So man has two ruachs that do something completely different at the exact same time of physical death?? There is no reason to translate either instances of ruachtwo different ways when the same word is used in the same parallel instance.
The 'breath that goeth forth and in that very day his thoughts perish' is the same ruach spoken of in Ecclesiastes 12:7 and in Ecclesiastes 3:20-21.
It is the breath of life (translated 'neshamah' given to man at creation. Death is merely creation in reverse. Man becomes a nephesh by the power of the ruach/neshamah, and when that ruach leaves his body, he ceases to be a nephesh.
The OT preaches biblical wholism, not Gree dualism. There is no immortal soul in the bible that goes and lives on in heaven at death. And lest ye quote Revelation 5, remember that 'nephesh/psuche' means 'living being' not 'disembodied spirit' and the parallel of the symbolism of the 'souls under the altar' is a metaphorical link to the sacrificial rite where the blood of the sacrifice is poured under the altar. The 'life is in the blood' as well.
guibox said:
Not that I know of. My impression is that it's a little like the English word spirits. Spirits can refer to alcohol or ethereal beings. You just have to see the context in which it's used to know which definition to go by. At this point in time I'm not very aware of what's going on in this discussion since I've had a long day and it's actually the next morning, so I just wanted to clarify that one point before I go to sleep. :wink:
U
unred typo
Guest
My opinion is that the person who allows the word of Christ to grow into their being, and becomes a new creation through walking in love and repentance, is in reality and actually, being formed as an eternal being that is going to live forever, with no death of his spirit/soul, but continuing in life into the next world. Jesus said they would never die. Not die, and come back to life. There are many definitions that need to be addressed that change the meaning of that, such as what is death, and what is the soul and spirit so I probably haven’t added much here since I don’t know the meanings of those words to even my own satisfaction yet.
unred typo said:
If that is the case then, than man is not inherent immortal but is given immortality. The Bible makes this clear that this privilege would only be for the righteous as you say, 'those who walk in love and repentance'. This means that wicked men do not have immortal souls or inherent immortality to be burned for all eternity. Hence the language used in Revelation 14 and 20 is metaphorical and language of destruction for they cannot burn for eternity.
unred typo said:
The problem with this explanation, unred, is that Jesus is not saying that I will die physically or that I will keep on living after I die physically. Jesus meant that we would not die eternally. We all die physically. Even if I die physically, I still have eternal life, even if I receive it at the end of the ages. I shall never eternally die. Jesus' words are true. It is complete assumption that Jesus saying 'You shall not surely die' means that 'my soul lives on after my physical death'. This can only be reached by assuming that man has an immortal soul to begin with.
In John 6, Jesus clarified what he meant
He who believes in me has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day
Paul reiterates this throughout 1 Corinthians 15. Eternal life is realized and given at the resurrection at the last day as a new 'nephesh' with an immortal body, not at my physical death as a disembodied soul
Has anyone brought up this passage yet? 1 Samuel 28:11-15
If so what would you all make of it? Is Samuel's body being raised from the dead? If that is the case, then why can't Saul see it but only the witch of Endor? Is this some sort of consciousness disconnected from Samuel's material body?
If so what would you all make of it? Is Samuel's body being raised from the dead? If that is the case, then why can't Saul see it but only the witch of Endor? Is this some sort of consciousness disconnected from Samuel's material body?
For those that believe the soul ceases to exist upon physical death: What are the beatings spoken of in Luke 12:46-48 and when do they occur?
Luk 12:40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
Luk 12:41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
Luk 12:40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
Luk 12:41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.