th1b.taylor
Member
Amen!
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
How can you believe in something that can't be scientifically proven?
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
However, doesn't science test hypotheses for verification or falsification?
th1b.taylor
Member
Oz,
You've skipped right over what I said about spiritual eyes. Before I saw God with my Spiritual Eyes My Spiritual Ears were opened and God answered my railing against Him. Just as I, a person refusing to trust God beyond all measure, had not heard from nor had I seen God, none there in the Company Street after that battle could have heard the voice I heard. I suggest that is why it is described as a still, small voice.
Even though I heard and misunderstood God that day, His call was permanent and still, knowing for an absolute truth that God is, I had not opened my Spiritual eyes and I could not see through this veil darkly. I am a bit of an odd-ball, being saved and indwelt in a Juke Joint but the night I walked out of there the scriptures made perfect sense where they were, to me, the writings of lunatics before. God had opened my eyes.
God has not given us the Bible that we might remain blind. We are given the scriptures that we might learn to approach the veil between what we, vainly, call reality and the real reality, the Spiritual world. To look through the veil, even darkly, complete submission is required. If a person surrenders in that manor, they will get into trouble with most of the people in the world because they cannot see the veil, let alone through it.
th1b.taylor
Member
I'm sorry but the followers of God do not need science to test their faith, that is why it is called faith.
Bill,
It was not my intention to skip over anything. But this description sounds quite metaphysical to me.
The followers of God do need evidence.
I was promoting what 1 Peter 3:15 states, 'but in your hearts honour Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect' (ESV).
See the article, 'Does Christianity Stand on Faith or Evidence?'
th1b.taylor
Member
And if you attempt to stand on science you will never have the joy of watching God work as you are invited to take part with Him. This metaphysical thing has to do with what is not real while God is real. There are no physical connections between this world and the Creator for science to examine.
The funny thing is that people have spent, I'm sure, better than the past 2,000 years working to disprove the Bible and all have failed and at least the notable have converted, convinced to the point of living on faith. (I have, once more, not included names, they are easily found by googling the subject and this is a homework item.) You might be interested to read "A Case For Christ."
As for you 1 Peter quote, I am making the case for my faith, you, on the other hand, are not.
Stan1953
Member
I think you are missing his point Bill. He is talking about how we are to give evidence that God is real. That doesn't always mean scientific evidence. It is not a matter of God being real but how He impacts every life and everything in our world. Miracles can be evidence.
I have never suggested attempting to stand on science to obtain the joy of watching God at work. Nothing I have said even remotely comes close to that.
By the way, the Bible is much more than 2,000 years old. 'Living on faith' to me is not 'just believe'. I need evidence on which to believe.
I have read Lee Strobel's, The Case for Christ. In it, Lee presents evidence for Christ. That is what I was suggesting when I cited 1 Peter 3:15.
You are accusing me of not making the case for faith. Where have you asked me to do that? How have I failed? If you are interested, here is some of my evidence for believing in the trustworthiness of the Bible:
Can you trust the Bible? Part 1
Can you trust the Bible? Part 2
Can you trust the Bible? Part 3
Can you trust the Bible? Part 4
I hope this is a two-way conversation. However, accusing me of doing something that I did not do, does not assist in accurate communication.
And there is evidence from nature of God's design. The heaven's declare the glory of God. You and I both know the wonderful design of the human heart, what happens when it malfunctions, and how God has given medical scientists the knowledge for by-pass and valve replacement heart surgeries. Wonderful design that has been affected by sin. The effects of sin for me and leaking heart valves came through 3 bouts of rheumatic fever when I was aged 6, 10 and 12.
There is evidence from history. He was the historical Jesus who died, was buried and rose again. It was the Jesus of history, the God-man who was in human flesh, who started the worldwide Christian church. It was not some phantom Jesus from a Gnostic religion.
th1b.taylor
Member
No, I have said you cannot make a case for Christianity with science and i stand by that statement. I also said that a person can only, ever, make converts if God is in it and that requires walking by faith with God so how about we cool down and stop the false accusations?
If you have read The Case For Christ, then as I recall it, you know a few of the stories I spoke of where men have tried to disprove the Bible, besides Pastor Lee. And I didn't say the Bible was 2,000 years old, that is a straw man you built so, let's calm down and stick to what is said, okay?
th1b.taylor
Member
Hi Stan,
I try to remember the subject because that should always be what we are discussing I am guilty of understanding his comments with the subject of the title defining the discussion and if I'm wrong, it isn't the first time I'll need to apologise.
Thank you, God bless and let's see what Oz says.
I did not say you can make a case for Christianity with science. That's a straw man fallacy.
I have been trying to discuss the need for evidence on which to base faith in Jesus and the trustworthiness of the Bible. I am not convinced of a 'just believe' kind of Christianity as
th1b.taylor
Member
For my straw man, I am sorry. my bad. But as for the Faith Only, that is the requirement for Salvation. We are taught that we must believe as a small child. (Matt. 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. KJV) When my son was five he would tell anyone his dad was the smartest and toughest man in the world. He had never seen me fight and as he grew he found questions I did not know the answers to but at pour and five he believed I was everything the world needed.
One of my issues with conversion was this requirement for entry into Heaven. I will even postulate that this requirement is the reason that better than 98% of the American Church Membership will be present the day after the Rapture, as per the survey in the mid-eighties of the Church in the U.S. But as I studied my Bible and learned to pray, I did believe as a small child and my relationship with Jesus/God became more intimate than the relationship with my wife.
There, simply, is no proof that can be known as Empirical Science but I know what I once believed as fact now. And if my KJV or my NASB says it, it is true, period.
th1b.taylor
Member
Sorry, this was not quoted in the first post and I missed it.
This verse is best used (my opinion) to illustrate that just believing is not enough but that we need the personal relationship Jesus sought to build with everyone He came into contact with. (the foru Gospel accounts)
I agree with you that faith is absolutely essential for salvation. But even to be able to come to God, we need some evidence and that is stated very clearly in Heb 11:6,
- We cannot please God without faith.
- But we cannot even approach God unless we believe that he exists.
- And they need to believe that they will be rewarded if they seek God.
I understand what you are saying with KJV and NASB, but the bigger issue is: What's our understanding of the inspiration of Scripture (or biblical authority), based on the original texts? I read NT Greek and have taught it, but if we can't read the original languages, we can compare any number of contemporary translations to get pretty close to the original meaning. I choose to compare translations such as the NASB, ESV, NIV, NLT and NET.
Oz
I think that that is your personal imposition on the text. Nothing is said in the text of James 2:19 about personal relationship with Jesus. This verse demonstrates that it is possible to have a false faith that does not help people to enter the kingdom of God. In this case it is demonic faith:
I understand that some of this false faith can be associated with theological liberalism (modernist and postmodernist) and extreme charismatics (see John MacArthur's book, Strange Fire).
th1b.taylor
Member
If you read the post in context I made no estimate but rather chose to deal with a survey that was taken in a double blind fashion to get the most honest answer they could. The saddest part, I found, was the survey was taken by only the faithful. Defined as attending no less than three services a week. Historically, today, this is 10 to 15% of the membership and is the same people that perform the work that keeps the Church running. The survey was cross-denominational and no pastor knew how any of his people answered because he had no part, as I understand, in administering the test. If you want my opinion, I do not believe more than one in a hundred have surrendered their will, complete will, to God and believe as a small child. I deal with church members on a steady basis and it is astonishing the things a, quote, unquote, Christian will expect a brother to do for them.
Building computers for people I am often asked to install and illegally authenticate the OS for them. And the women in the church are more like the girls in the bar than many will ever believe and teaching men, I know better than to leave them out of this group. My first foray into Church Government was very disappointing. I already knew, to some extent, that adultery was easy to discover in the membership but on my first service in Administration led to even the pastor being involved with more than one married woman other than his wife. He has had his license revoked and has been black balled but that removes only one,
Oh, MS is stupid! I forgot, the test was only on the basics of the Christian Faith, thus being denominational neutral. Some people, from my 69 years of experience will lie no matter what the circumstance. The questions asked were, "Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe Jesus died for the remission of your sins? Do you believe Jesus rose from the grave? Do you believe Jesus is returning to take you to Heaven?" and so on. Of the 10 to 15% taking the test, less than 10% of those believe. swell that out to the entire membership to include even the Tire Shop owner there to build his business and that, between 9 and 10% passing the test, some lying, and you have less than 2% as oer the test results.
The actual number still belongs to God but the results are scary and it demonstrates that the worship Service is a field ripe to the harvest.
th1b.taylor
Member
Again, no verse group or collection of verses can ever be understood without the light of all other scripture shinning on it. And as I pointed out Jesus went about building personal relationships and destroying religion. A good study of the Gospels demonstrates this truth. I am not stupid enough to impose anything on the scriptures. You have, simply, drawn the verse out of biblical context and I have sought to use it as the Holy Spirit taught me to use it.
Stan1953
Member
Exactly as Paul teaches in Romans 1