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How can you say, "ALL the Bible is directly from God"?

Orion said:
He makes a very good point that these 40 authors WOULD have similarities in what they wrote, and even the styles BECAUSE they were all in the same religion.

Well, you might want to compare the Bible to the Vedas if you'd like to see how the continuity of the Bible compares with another religious text that is considered to be written by people "of the same religion".

Orion said:
It makes it less impressive if you have 1,000 years of Baptists (if the Baptist faith lasts that long) who write the same things during that time. Of course you'll get many similarities, and the same can be said for these 40 writers.

I would assume you can put up as many objections as you'd like. I've read some of wavy's objections and they seem to conflict with eachother. On one hand, I've seen objections that the Bible has contradictions and therefore is not similar enough to be true. But apparently even those who claim and complain about contradictions still cannot deny the striking similarities. Instead of marveling at the fact that a single thread of faith can exist unchanged throughout the writing of the Bible by different authors, it is made into a critisizm of why the Bible is not striking at all. Then, at the same time, I've seen people try to eak out where they believe the Bible to be put together by people of completely different faiths (one worshipping the El god another the yahweh god etc etc.) To me, it seems like people are desperately trying to put something together to have a reason to reject the validity of the Bible and forget how they've become conflicted in the process of doing so.

Orion said:
His other point about, the Canon being put together by a committee that only allowed in the ideas that agreed with THEIR phylosophy also makes a lot of sense. These men didn't come under some sort of trance!

You might want to look deeper into the history behind that as well. They really just collected the writings that were already largely accepted by the churches of the time.

Orion said:
I will say it again, IF God wrote all of the words, including the Pslams of David, then there WERE no "praises of David", but just him being a tool for God to express his OWN greatness. David's words were not his, then. They can't be both.

Why not? I hope its not only because it solves the problem.
 
OK, Orion, you bring up two different things here to address. First you sort of went back to the beginning, (not a bad idea when a thread gets bogged down).

I will say it again, IF God wrote all of the words, including the Pslams of David, then there WERE no "praises of David", but just him being a tool for God to express his OWN greatness. David's words were not his, then. They can't be both. Either David has his own thoughts, and places them in written form, or he is just transcribing God's words for him and how he should feel about his fleeing from Saul, or his wondering where God is. David becomes meaningless.

Ok, we addressed this before, and I don't think anyone here thinks that God wrote all the words. The idea of God personally writing the words of anything (with the exception of the first stone tablets, the one's that were broken when Moses came down from Mount Sinai) isn't a part of any Chrisitan doctrine. You still seem to be struggling with what "inspired" means and we really need to nail this down for you to understand how the Bible can be the inspired and infalliable Word of God.

Again, inspired doesn't mean dictation. Now, I do think there are sections of Scriptures that God did indeed dictate, but not all by any means. Not even most. As I mentioned before, God actually wrote (engraved) the Ten Commandments upon the first stone tablets, but they were broken when Moses came down. God didn't engrave the second set, but Moses did take dictation at that time, and God dictated a number of other things at the same time. Most of what we could consider 'dictation' from God can be found in the Pentateuch, but not all of the Pentateuch is dictated by God by any means. Nor was all of the Pentateuch written by Moses, especially the part that was written after Moses died. No, Moses wasn't the original "ghost writer". (Ok, bad joke! :P )

However the concept of a ghost writer is alive and well in the writings of the Pentateuch. Ghost writing being the practise of somebody who isn't a writer, writing a book nonetheless using a professional writer to actually get the words onto paper. With few notable exceptions, most 'autobiographies' of people like the Clintons for instance, were written by ghost writers. Much of what is attributed to Moses in the Pentateuch is the same way. Moses dictated, directed and ensured what he wanted written down, some grunt with a stylus did the actual writing.

Maybe this will be helpful:

Here is an example of something that God wrote with His own hands:

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:2-3 Exodus 24:12

However, we don't have that any more. God wrote these words on one of the two stone tablets that were broken.

Another example of God writing with His own hand is found in Daniel 5:25 when God writes upon the wall of Belshazzar's feasting room.

Exodus 25 would be an example of something that Moses himself wrote. Also, Moses wrote a copy of the 10 Commandments on stone which were stored in the Ark of the Covenant.

While Deuteronomy 34 was obviously written by someone other than Moses, probably most of the Pentateuch was written down by scribes. Moses probably dictated quite a bit of it, but certainly not all. However, the entire Pentateuch is attributed to Moses, for God gave the Law to Moses as the leader of the people. So, while he may not have done the grunt work of putting pen to paper, Jesus attributed the Pentateuch to Moses as the one who recieved the inspriation and faithfully saw to it that it was written down.

However, the important part of this, the part where inspiration comes in, is that God saw to it that His message to His people was faithfully recorded. Which was why Jesus had no problem quoting Moses or Isaiah. While He spent a lot of time correcting the attitudes and traditions that were binding the Jews of His day, He didn't spend any time correcting the Scriptures.

As for the works of David and the other authors, unless they were transcribing God's direct message, the words were their own, but nonetheless inspired. The pain we see in David's writings, the lonliness, the joy and praise were all valid emotions and feelings that David went through. The inspiration comes into play in that God again prompted these truths to be written down and preserved for us so that the ages could read, understand and learn from David's triumphs and his mistakes. There were also times when the Holy Spirit used David's outpourings to contain prophesies as well. Again, this doesn't mean that somehow David became a mindless auto-bot.

An example of what I am talking about can be found in Psalm 22.

My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?
Far from my dliverance are the words of my groaning.
O my God, I cry by day, but Thou dost not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
Yet Thou art holy,
O Thou who art enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
In Thee our fathers trusted;
They trusted and Thou dist deliver them.
To Thee they cried out, and were delivered;
In Thee they trusted and were not dissappointed.
But I am a worm, and not a man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head saying,
Commit yourself to the Lord;
let Him deliever him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.

(This is too long to quote verbatim so I'm going to jump to verse 14)

I am poured out like water
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
My strength is dried up like a postsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

Now, it's clear that David wrote this psalm when he was distressed by the many enemies that he had. The distress and depression that David underwent, especially when Saul was out to kill him, is a common theme in many of his psalms. But, it's also clear that the Holy Spirit was inspiring David to pour out his very real distress in such a way that it became a prophetic parallel to Christ's suffering on the cross. This doesn't in any way diminish or make what David said worthless. Jews sang this song for countless years prior to Christ, and found comfort in the hope that shone through David's distress. But, that it was also an inspired prophecy is readily apparent. And, this is a classic example of how inspiration works.

Does this clear it up? Or can I add anything else that would make it more understandable? (I don't want to add to much more because this post is long enough!)

Your second point regarding the similarities can also be addressed, but I think it's really important to deal with what inspiration means before going onward. I have some very interesting material on the Dead Sea Scrolls which to me consititutes proof that the God who inspired the Scriptures was also able to keep the message of the Scriptures intact. However, I get too confused if I have to deal with too many issues at a time. Let's work out the inspiration issue, then move on to the inerrancy issue. And they are two different issues. One can believe that God inspired the original work, but man muffed it up either purposely or by accident in the ensuing millienias. There is plenty of information to show otherwise that I'll be happy to get into later.

When one can finally understand that the God who inspired the writing of His word in the first place and can also keep His word intact throughout ennumerable copies and translations, then it becomes a piece of cake to understand that this same God can also work in the hearts and minds of those who pulled together the final canon, to ensure that what is sitting here by my elbow contains the inspired and inerrant message from God.
 
PS, I posted the above without editing, and I'm really not that great at grammer and spelling. Hopefully it's readable, but if it isn't, just let me know and I'll try to clean it up.
 
Veritas said:
Well, you might want to compare the Bible to the Vedas if you'd like to see how the continuity of the Bible compares with another religious text that is considered to be written by people "of the same religion".

question: have you actually read the vedas or studied it to see exactly what it is? or are you just parroting something you heard? and what makes the vedas anymore discontinuous than the bible?

I've read some of wavy's objections and they seem to conflict with eachother.

your biased viewpoint is very convincing. :crazyeyes:

but there's an old saying, and it goes: talk is cheap. on the contrary, i believe mondar's argumentation refuted itself. but if you can present a better explanation for the supposed inspiration of the bible via continuity, then we'd all love to see it.

But apparently even those who claim and complain about contradictions still cannot deny the striking similarities. Instead of marveling at the fact that a single thread of faith can exist unchanged throughout the writing of the Bible by different authors, it is made into a critisizm of why the Bible is not striking at all. Then, at the same time, I've seen people try to eak out where they believe the Bible to be put together by people of completely different faiths (one worshipping the El god another the yahweh god etc etc.) To me, it seems like people are desperately trying to put something together to have a reason to reject the validity of the Bible and forget how they've become conflicted in the process of doing so.

i'm sorry to say, and i really don't want to be rude or derail this thread, but this is meaninglessness. that 'those who claim and complain...cannot deny the striking similarities' just assumes that there are so-called 'striking similarities' that would demand inspiration. i'd also like to see exactly what you're referring to when you say this:

Then, at the same time, I've seen people try to eak out where they believe the Bible to be put together by people of completely different faiths (one worshipping the El god another the yahweh god etc etc.)

are you alluding somehwhat to the documentary hypothesis or are you referring to the 'sons of el' in ancient near eastern religion (one of them being 'yahweh', and something that can be detected in the bible)?

You might want to look deeper into the history behind that as well. They really just collected the writings that were already largely accepted by the churches of the time.

many of the nt writings, yes, but not all of them (esther, james, hebrews, revelation, 2peter, and 2/3john being examples). there was more than one wing of the early christian church. the church that formed the canon was what became the majority. also, for a long time books from what is now the 'apocrypha' but which were included in the septuagint bible that most christians used were accepted as authoritative...on up to the middle ages. protestants rejected them as inspired books (inciting the council of trent, 1546). so i'd like to ask you: are you catholic?

furthermore, not all of the books were accepted at the same time. e.g., the gospels were accepted and read along with the old testament before paul's writings became authoritative (with the help of the book of acts) then the catholic and pastoral writings (and hebrews), but there were divisions over several of these books. e.g., not everyone accepted hebrews. the book of revelation almost failed inclusion as 'inspired' while the shepherd of hermas almost made it (although it was used authoritatively as scripture for a long time before it was dropped).

anyway, i said all that to say that there is nothing spectacular about this prolonged process, and i'd like to see anyone demonstrate how any of this proves or indicates divine inspiration. anyone can claim superficial unity of the bible, but that's to be expected given what i've already explained (relatively the same cultural/religious milieu, writings being aware of other writings or following their tradition, debate, time, and canonization).

now something spectacular would be if each book arose in different times in completely different parts of the world and knew absolutely nothing of each other nor centered around a single religion (judaism or christianity), and yet somehow were suddenly found bound together by a blind man who travelled across the globe selecting random books for his blind book collection.

now that would be something worth mentioning or something decisive on this issue. the reality of what happened, however, is not.


kind regards,
~eric
 
handy said:
But, it's also clear that the Holy Spirit was inspiring David to pour out his very real distress in such a way that it became a prophetic parallel to Christ's suffering on the cross.

...

But, that it was also an inspired prophecy is readily apparent.

how is that 'clear' or 'apparent' when it's as easy as a pesher interpretation by the authors of the gospels?

When one can finally understand that the God who inspired the writing of His word in the first place and can also keep His word intact throughout ennumerable copies and translations, then it becomes a piece of cake to understand that this same God can also work in the hearts and minds of those who pulled together the final canon, to ensure that what is sitting here by my elbow contains the inspired and inerrant message from God.

note my highlight above in red. is this not a classic example of circular reasoning?


kind regards,
~eric
 
mondar said:
I am not interested. When I asked wavy to tone down some of the insults, he resonded by saying...

again, your charges backfire on you (remember 'ignorance' without addressing my points?). anyway, you seem to mistake criticism of your arguments for 'ad hominem', which just displays unfamiliarity with what 'ad hominem' is. ad hominem is calling attention to your character as a red herring to avoid your points, which i haven't done, since i have addressed and refuted your points for two posts in a row now.

I dont see that a civil discussion is possible, so I think I will just pass.

for the record: when i mentioned 'ignorance' here i was quoting you (who charged me with 'ignorance' many times; should i go back and count?) secondly, i was only explaining here that negative criticism is not equivalent to ad hominem (despite your charges of that too). what's so uncivilized about this quote? i'm sure you wouldn't like me to a compile of list of your quotes...

kind regards,
~eric
 
Eric, at least be intellectually honest enough to admit two things:

1: I haven't even made the attempt to provide what I consider 'proofs' to inerrancy of the Scriptures yet. (I'm still working on Orion's total misunderstanding of what 'inspiration' means.)

and

2: You've engaged in a bit circular reasoning yourself. For instance, the statement "how is that 'clear' or 'apparent' when it's as easy as a pesher interpretation by the authors of the gospels?"

For, if by pesher interpretation you mean that the writers of the gospels didn't write down eyewitness accounts of the words that Christ uttered, the casting of lots for His clothes, the piercing of His hands and feet, but they simply interjected these things because they wanted to fit their account of the crucifixion into Psalm 22, making the Psalm a spurious prophesy, then you're engaging in circular reasoning, based on the assumption that there is no honesty or inspiration when it comes to the scriptures.

Eric, I hope you don't get offended, but even if you do, I'm not going to directly respond to you anymore in this thread. I really want to dialog with Orion, because I simply see that Orion misunderstands a lot of things regarding the inspiration of the Bible.

I have a suggestion, you can take it or leave it. My suggestion is that maybe you could back off and allow Orion to come to a clear understanding of what we Christians are talking about when we speak of the Bible being inspired, instead of continually trying to muddy the waters, just because you're not a Christian and you don't believe in inspiration. I promise you it won't hurt you in any way if Orion can come to understand what we mean by 'inspired'. It won't hurt him either, and I'm not even saying that he will come to agree with us. But, if he disagrees, at least allow him the ability (and basic respect) to disagree based upon a clear understanding of what Biblical inspiration actually is, rather than just having to remain in a fog of confusion. Orion has come to a Christian forum to ask of Christians what we mean when we say that All the Bible is directly from God. Please, allow us to answer without this constant nay-saying, casting confusion and the rest of it. If Orion wants to know what athiests think of what Biblical inspiration is all about, there are any number of athist sites out there to go to.

Again, Eric, I hope I'm not offending you, and believe me, I'm not trying to be rude.

And, Orion, the way I see it is exactly what I said to Eric, you came to this Christian Forum to ask Christians what we mean when we say that all the Bible is directly from God. And, after 4 pages, mainly of debate with wavy, I find that you still seem to not comprehend what some of us were trying to explain to you on page one. If you truly want to come to understand what the Chrisitan belief of inspiration is, I'd love to help you. I'm not trying to be rude to Eric, but his presence in this thread seems to be just casting confusion on a topic that really isn't all that hard to explain. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't take 4 pages of posting to get you beyond the idea that God directly dictated the scriptures, yet this is exactly where you are in your post from this morning at 11:22.

If we don't care for what Eric is saying, it's not just because he's been less than civil (for there have been some who have been less than civil to him), it's because we know that he is keeping you (and perhaps himself even) from understanding what the basic meaning of 'inspiration' is.

I for one would like to see this mess of a thread get back on track and tackle what Christians are talking about when we say that ALL the Bible is directly from God. It's not dictation and its just transcribing God's words for Him, making the human author meaningless. Orion, if you want to engage in a meaningful dialog so that you can get your question to Christians adequately answered by Christians, I'm here for you. If not, I think I'll bow out, because I don't think I could stand another 4 pages of wrangling.
 
handy said:
Eric, at least be intellectually honest enough to admit two things:

sure, if they're good points.

1: I haven't even made the attempt to provide what I consider 'proofs' to inerrancy of the Scriptures yet. (I'm still working on Orion's total misunderstanding of what 'inspiration' means.)

did i ask you anything about inerrancy? no i didn't. on to the next point.

2: You've engaged in a bit circular reasoning yourself. For instance, the statement "how is that 'clear' or 'apparent' when it's as easy as a pesher interpretation by the authors of the gospels?"

For, if by pesher interpretation you mean that the writers of the gospels didn't write down eyewitness accounts of the words that Christ uttered, the casting of lots for His clothes, the piercing of His hands and feet, but they simply interjected these things because they wanted to fit their account of the crucifixion into Psalm 22, making the Psalm a spurious prophesy, then you're engaging in circular reasoning, based on the assumption that there is no honesty or inspiration when it comes to the scriptures.

1) the psalm doesn't say it's a prophetic (nor does any gospel author connect jesus' death with the piercing of his hands and feet found in the corruption of the masoretic text).

2) the method of interpretation called 'pesher' is not about dishonesty.

3) none of what you said amounts to circular reasoning. if it does, please supply a syllogism showing how i engaged in circular reasoning. i don't see it.

4) this statement of yours: 'based on the assumption that there is no honesty or inspiration when it comes to the scriptures'--is yet another circular argument. i cannot judge on the 'honesty' or 'inspiration' of the scriptures unless you establish their 'inspiration' in the first place.

Eric, I hope you don't get offended, but even if you do, I'm not going to directly respond to you anymore in this thread. I really want to dialog with Orion, because I simply see that Orion misunderstands a lot of things regarding the inspiration of the Bible.

I have a suggestion, you can take it or leave it. My suggestion is that maybe you could back off and allow Orion to come to a clear understanding of what we Christians are talking about when we speak of the Bible being inspired, instead of continually trying to muddy the waters, just because you're not a Christian and you don't believe in inspiration. I promise you it won't hurt you in any way if Orion can come to understand what we mean by 'inspired'. It won't hurt him either, and I'm not even saying that he will come to agree with us. But, if he disagrees, at least allow him the ability (and basic respect) to disagree based upon a clear understanding of what Biblical inspiration actually is, rather than just having to remain in a fog of confusion. Orion has come to a Christian forum to ask of Christians what we mean when we say that All the Bible is directly from God. Please, allow us to answer without this constant nay-saying, casting confusion and the rest of it. If Orion wants to know what athiests think of what Biblical inspiration is all about, there are any number of athist sites out there to go to.

Again, Eric, I hope I'm not offending you, and believe me, I'm not trying to be rude.

And, Orion, the way I see it is exactly what I said to Eric, you came to this Christian Forum to ask Christians what we mean when we say that all the Bible is directly from God. And, after 4 pages, mainly of debate with wavy, I find that you still seem to not comprehend what some of us were trying to explain to you on page one. If you truly want to come to understand what the Chrisitan belief of inspiration is, I'd love to help you. I'm not trying to be rude to Eric, but his presence in this thread seems to be just casting confusion on a topic that really isn't all that hard to explain. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't take 4 pages of posting to get you beyond the idea that God directly dictated the scriptures, yet this is exactly where you are in your post from this morning at 11:22.

If we don't care for what Eric is saying, it's not just because he's been less than civil (for there have been some who have been less than civil to him), it's because we know that he is keeping you (and perhaps himself even) from understanding what the basic meaning of 'inspiration' is.

I for one would like to see this mess of a thread get back on track and tackle what Christians are talking about when we say that ALL the Bible is directly from God. It's not dictation and its just transcribing God's words for Him, making the human author meaningless. Orion, if you want to engage in a meaningful dialog so that you can get your question to Christians adequately answered by Christians, I'm here for you. If not, I think I'll bow out, because I don't think I could stand another 4 pages of wrangling.

i'm not offended. but i don't see why you wouldn't respond. i'm not trying to muddy anything. i just want to discuss. should i not say anything unless orion asks me? i too don't want this thread to be locked so it's your call. you're the mod. :wink:

kind regards,
~eric
 
wavy said:
mondar said:
I am not interested. When I asked wavy to tone down some of the insults, he resonded by saying...

again, your charges backfire on you (remember 'ignorance' without addressing my points?). anyway, you seem to mistake criticism of your arguments for 'ad hominem', which just displays unfamiliarity with what 'ad hominem' is. ad hominem is calling attention to your character as a red herring to avoid your points, which i haven't done, since i have addressed and refuted your points for two posts in a row now.

I dont see that a civil discussion is possible, so I think I will just pass.

for the record: when i mentioned 'ignorance' here i was quoting you (who charged me with 'ignorance' many times; should i go back and count?) secondly, i was only explaining here that negative criticism is not equivalent to ad hominem (despite your charges of that too). what's so uncivilized about this quote? i'm sure you wouldn't like me to a compile of list of your quotes...

kind regards,
~eric

Ahh, OK, then you had great reason to be as insulting as you could.
 
wavy said:
question: have you actually read the vedas or studied it to see exactly what it is? or are you just parroting something you heard? and what makes the vedas anymore discontinuous than the bible?

I used to pick my way through some of the Hindu beliefs along with Buddhism as well. I didn't really consider myself a Christian at that time as I believed more along the lines of what is taught in those Eastern religions. I never read the entire Vedas being that it's extremely large and complicated but I did refer to it from time to time... ...mostly from other Hindu books that cited it. But yes, I think it is quite discontinuous when compared to the Bible.. the stories, gods/God, and philosophies.. If you were to ask a Hindu I think they would probably readily admit that it is, but I would also assume they most likely would not see a problem with that. Their philosophy is heavily based on "both/and" type philosophy. Too much so ...But that's another discussion.

wavy said:
Veritas said:
I've read some of wavy's objections and they seem to conflict with eachother.

your biased viewpoint is very convincing.

We're all biased in the end wavy, I expained why I thought it was conflicting.

wavy said:
but there's an old saying, and it goes: talk is cheap. on the contrary, i believe mondar's argumentation refuted itself. but if you can present a better explanation for the supposed 'inspiration' of the bible via continuity, then we'd all love to see it.

Well, simply starting by looking at all the cross-references in any Bible is a good start. I know you've done this wavy, I've seen that you considered yourself a Christian in the past.. and a devout one at that.

wavy said:
i'm sorry to say, and i really don't want to be rude or derail this thread, but this is meaninglessness. that 'those who claim and complain...cannot deny the striking similarities' just assumes that there are so-called 'striking similarities'. i'd also like to see exactly what you're referring to when you say this:

It was you who said the similarity in the Bible was not remarkable because the people who wrote it were of the same religion right? You've assumed similarity in doing so.

wavy said:
are you alluding somehwhat to the documentary hypothesis or are you referring to the 'sons of el' in ancient near easter religion (one of them being 'yahweh', and something that can be detected in the bible)?

I was referring to both of those. I've seen others similar to that as well.

wavy said:
many of the nt writings, yes, but not all of them (esther, james, hebrews, revelation, 2peter, and 2/3john being examples). there was more than one wing of the early christian church. the church that formed the canon was what became the majority. also, for a long time books from what is now the 'apocrypha' but which were included in the septuagint bible that most christians used were accepted as authoritative...on up to the middle ages. protestants rejected them as inspired books (inciting the council of trent, 1546). so i'd like to ask you: are you catholic?

No, but I affirm Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

wavy said:
furthermore, not all of the books were accepted at the same time. e.g., the gospels were accepted and read along with the old testament before paul's writings became authoritative (with the help of the book of acts) then the catholic and pastoral writings (and hebrews), but there were divisions over several of these books. e.g., not everyone accepted hebrews. the book of revelation almost failed inclusion as 'inspired' while the shepherd of hermas almost made it (although it was used authoritatively as scripture for a long time before it was dropped).

Sure, I understand that. We're not perfect and will stumble along a bit in finding God's Word, but I will say that I still marvel at the unity of the early church in the proclamation of the Gospel with the exception of a few other writings that were still being collected and pondered.

wavy said:
anyway, i said all that to say that there is nothing spectacular about this prolonged process, and i'd like to see anyone demonstrate how any of this proves or indicates 'divine inspiration'. anyone can claim superficial unity of the bible, but that's to be expected given what i've already explained (relatively the same cultural/religious milieu, writings being aware of other writings or following their tradition, debate, and canonization).

now something spectacular would be if each book arose in different times in completely different parts of the world and knew absolutely nothing of each other nor centered around a single religion (judaism or christianity), and yet somehow were suddenly found bound together by a blind man who travelled across the globe selecting random books for his blind book collection.

:D I got a chuckle out of that wavy... Yes that would be spectacular, but it's not the way God did it is it. No, I guess I have no problem with some of the "ordinary" means in the way the Bible came about. In my opinion I think God likes to work in the ordinary quite a bit.

wavy said:
now that would be something worth mentioning or something decisive on this issue. the reality of what happened, however, is not.

In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't.
-Blaise Pascal
 
I'm back. I need to clean up this thread, but don't know where to start, honestly. Don't be offended if a post of yours is missing.

wavy, check your PMs in a few minutes.
 
I have decides to let the thread stay as it is.

Orion, it's your thread if you decide to continue.

I respect mondar's wishes to not continue his part of the current discussion. If mondar wishes to continue and follow up on any future posts, that's mondar's prerogative.

I also want to thank those who edited and/or deleted their own posts.

Peace,
Vic
 
Okay, handy, so maybe I HAVE misunderstood "inspired", but have usually heard it as the way I've discussed. If it is just a matter of (for instance, David in the Psalms) God inspired him to write down his feelings, then I can see what you're saying. I'm not sure I will accept the notion that this happened every single time. If it were the case that it DID happen every single time, then I can't accept the notion that every single thing was meant for all time periods. For instance, . . . . IF it were a directive from God (and I don't believe it was) that parents should stone an unruly child, then it wouldn't be the case today. I'm certain that you won't be able to agree with all that, but right now, I can accept God creating the situation where an author, like David, would feel the need to write down his thoughts.

I would like to see mondar and wavy continue their debate, but maybe one of them should start it in a thread of their own. :)
 
Orion said:
Okay, handy, so maybe I HAVE misunderstood "inspired", but have usually heard it as the way I've discussed. If it is just a matter of (for instance, David in the Psalms) God inspired him to write down his feelings, then I can see what you're saying. I'm not sure I will accept the notion that this happened every single time. If it were the case that it DID happen every single time, then I can't accept the notion that every single thing was meant for all time periods. For instance, . . . . IF it were a directive from God (and I don't believe it was) that parents should stone an unruly child, then it wouldn't be the case today. I'm certain that you won't be able to agree with all that, but right now, I can accept God creating the situation where an author, like David, would feel the need to write down his thoughts.

Every single "jot" and "tittle" of God's word was dictated if you wish to use that word. Why play with words?

Matt 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
KJV

Orion said:
I would like to see mondar and wavy continue their debate, but maybe one of them should start it in a thread of their own. :)

You can see this type of debate anywhere...you do not have to come to a Christian website to see it. You can find it on the streets of our major cities, TV, movies. I'm a small town person, but that does not mean that I have not lived in very many large cities. The Internet is probably one of the largest cities in the world. Christians find answers to questions from scripture and sometimes directions from other Christians, not from someone trying to destrory their belief. It is time that all Christians stop sitting on the fense , we need to choose what side to jump to. The Laodicean church...well you surely know how Christ judges there works. :)

God Bless
 
GraceBwithU said:
Every single "jot" and "tittle" of God's word was dictated if you wish to use that word. Why play with words?

Matt 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
KJV

Go out and kill yourself a witch tonight, then. :-?

In all seriousness, you and handy need to have a discussion, because I refuse the notion of a "dictated by God" bible as being real.


GraceBwithU said:
You can see this type of debate anywhere...you do not have to come to a Christian website to see it. You can find it on the streets of our major cities, TV, movies. I'm a small town person, but that does not mean that I have not lived in very many large cities. The Internet is probably one of the largest cities in the world. Christians find answers to questions from scripture and sometimes directions from other Christians, not from someone trying to destrory their belief. It is time that all Christians stop sitting on the fense , we need to choose what side to jump to. The Laodicean church...well you surely know how Christ judges there works. :)

God Bless


Okay, . . . . . . . . . . . . . .point me to these locations. Locations where THIS debate between mondar and wavy is taking place, word for word, phylosophy for phylosophy??? :-?
 
Orion said:
Go out and kill yourself a witch tonight, then. :-?

Ridiculios statement. get real..lol

Orion said:
In all seriousness, you and handy need to have a discussion, because I refuse the notion of a "dictated by God" bible as being real.

If you were not prepared for scripture that clearly shows you this, then why did you ask the question? Your mind was already made up.

Orion said:
Okay, . . . . . . . . . . . . . .point me to these locations. Locations where THIS debate between mondar and wavy is taking place, word for word, phylosophy for phylosophy??? :-?

Go to your door...open it and look outside.
Support any god...with a "lower case" that you what?
Scripture is clear...it is all His word. from the first jot to the last tittle. The "Huhs" come form lack of understanding. I have them too. But I do not just quickly disregard God's word as being a book of man when I do not understand something.
I pray.
 
mondar said:
mutzrein said:
But does this all mean that the God who inspired scripture stopped speaking to man upon completion of 66 books?

Do you think there will yet be a 67th book'?

No, I accept that the bible is complete. But in the bible we are told that in the last days knowledge will increase. Since God is the author of knowledge I believe that there is much He will reveal to man which will give insight into the mysteries of His Kingdom. To those at least who have 'ears to hear' and 'eyes to see'.
 
Orion said:
If it is just a matter of (for instance, David in the Psalms) God inspired him to write down his feelings, then I can see what you're saying. I'm not sure I will accept the notion that this happened every single time. If it were the case that it DID happen every single time, then I can't accept the notion that every single thing was meant for all time periods. For instance, . . . . IF it were a directive from God (and I don't believe it was) that parents should stone an unruly child, then it wouldn't be the case today. I'm certain that you won't be able to agree with all that, but right now, I can accept God creating the situation where an author, like David, would feel the need to write down his thoughts.

OK, I think this is a good place to continue on from then. I have to go into town this morning, but I'll try to do some follow up on this either later this afternoon or tomorrow. Meanwhile, I agree with you that every single thing was NOT meant for all time periods. For you are right, we don't need to stone unruly kids and witches. This doesn't mean that these laws were not a directive from God, but because of the New Covenant, no, we are not under those old directives.

Once we can understand what inspiration means, then we can move on to how to correctly read and understand God's message to us. When we correctly read and understand the Scriptures, then pretty much all of the supposed 'contradictions' clear up.

More later...
 
GraceBwithU said:
Orion said:
Go out and kill yourself a witch tonight, then. :-?

Ridiculios statement. get real..lol

No, . . . NOT a ridiculous statement. It was commanded (as YOU see it) by God for his people to kill witches, stone unruly kids, stone adulterers, homosexuals, kill anyone who touches the holy mountain, . . . . the list goes on.

Today we say, those were meant for that time, . . . but it's funny that only the laws that seem "less than palatable" are the ones that "aren't for today". :-?

:smt102
 
Orion said:
No, . . . NOT a ridiculous statement. It was commanded (as YOU see it) by God for his people to kill witches, stone unruly kids, stone adulterers, homosexuals, kill anyone who touches the holy mountain, . . . . the list goes on.

Today we say, those were meant for that time, . . . but it's funny that only the laws that seem "less than palatable" are the ones that "aren't for today". :-?

:smt102
As I see it, 603 of the 613 may not be for Christians at all when it comes to commandments. Many, many of them are common sense, like the dietary laws, and it would be wise to follow them, but are they really mandatory for Christians?

There has been a popular phrase passed around here and throughout Christian teaching circles;

All the Bible is for us, but not all of it is about us. Do we really need to cause another to stumble by suggesting they adhere to some judicial laws that are thousands of years old and meant for a different culture?

We must carefully consider Scripture when deciding what is what. Example: are Christians grafted into the body of believers by being circumcised? In other words, is circumcision necessary? If you only take into account the Law that commands circumcision, you would come to the wrong conclusion.

Now we read Acts 15 and come to the proper answer to this and other similar questions.

22 ¶ Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, Judas having been surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers,
23 writing by their hand these things: The apostles and the elders and the brothers, to those throughout Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia, brothers from the nations: Greeting.
24 Since we heard that some of us having gone out have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, Be circumcised and keep the Law, to whom we gave no command;
25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to send chosen men to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have given up their souls on behalf of the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
27 Therefore, we have sent Judas and Silas, they by word also announcing the same things.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to put not one greater burden on you than these necessary things:
29 To hold back from idol sacrifices, and blood, and that strangled, and from fornication; from which continually keeping yourselves, you will do well. Be prospered.

30 Then they indeed being let go, they went to Antioch. And gathering the multitude, they delivered the letter.
31 And reading it, they rejoiced at the comfort. (LITV)

Anyway, lets see how Handy defines inspired for you.

Vic
 
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