How can you say, "ALL the Bible is directly from God"?

[GraceBwithU]

No, . . . NOT a ridiculous statement. It was commanded (as YOU see it) by God for his people to kill witches, stone unruly kids, stone adulterers, homosexuals, kill anyone who touches the holy mountain, . . . . the list goes on.

Just because you do not understand this you say the Bible is not all God’s word. You say huh to things that you don’t understand, and immediately say this must be man’s words without any further study.(is this how you interpret the Bible…to simply dismiss it as being the words of man because of your lack of understanding.) If any word of the Bible is not from God then none of it is. None of it is reliable. You are the one that is picking and choosing. God has made many different covenants with mankind and also individuals over the years. Each one of them further fulfilled His plan for the ages.


We are living in the age of the church…

1. INNOCENSE – (From creation to the fall of man…eating the forbidden fruit)
2. CONSCIENCE – (From the fall of man to the Flood)
3. HUMAN GOVERNMENT – (From leaving the ark to Abraham.)
4. PROMISE – ( From Abraham to the Law)
5. LAW – ( From giving of the Law at Sinai to the Resurrection of Christ)
6. CHURCH – (From the Resurrection of Christ to His millennial Kingdom)
7. KINGDOM – (The return from heaven of Christ and his Church to infinity)

With all of these there is a change…and most often marked with a new covenant. None of the covenants are meant to nullify the other or to say oops I made a mistake, only to fulfill.

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
KJV

Jesus is simply saying that all the scriptures that where, and are now are important to properly complete God’s plan for the ages. Jesus actually made things stricter. He just emphasized God’s grace.

John 1:17
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
KJV

It is all true and 100% just and fair. If you can not see the absolute perfection of God’s word now…you will. But only through study not through ignoring parts that you don’t understand and saying this must be from man not God, because it does not agree with my understanding of God, (so the Bible must also be a book of man). As I said if any of it is man’s writings then we can not depend on one single word of the Bible. The scriptures speak plainly that it is the word of God. No, ifs, ands, or buts about it.

It is God's “ believe it or not†not Ripley’s.

John 1:1-2
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
KJV

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

Would not believing in all the word = not believing in all ofJesus? Just a thought.

 

[Orion]

Just because you do not understand this you say the Bible is not all God’s word. You say huh to things that you don’t understand, and immediately say this must be man’s words without any further study.(is this how you interpret the Bible…to simply dismiss it as being the words of man because of your lack of understanding.) If any word of the Bible is not from God then none of it is. None of it is reliable. You are the one that is picking and choosing. God has made many different covenants with mankind and also individuals over the years. Each one of them further fulfilled His plan for the ages.

Okay, now THAT is a ridiculous statement [the one I underlined and bolded]. How do you come to that reasoning? How do YOU know that to be true? I think this is the problem when people start calling a work from the hands of men as "God's words". You find it nearly blasphemous if one single word was not God's actual words! I find that rather cult-ish, if you want to know the truth! You told me a few posts ago that you feel that EVERY word was directly from God. Did I misunderstand you?

As for me "picking and choosing", . . . you bet! I believe that some of what was written was for ONE nation of people, AND probably not even from God, but set up as the rules of over zealous men. . . . .They're definitely not for the modern world. It's obviously true or Christians would still have the spiritual duty of acting out the laws given in Deuteronomy. If someone doesn't want to "pick and choose", that's their deal, just remember that many of them (the laws found in the OT) will cause these people to break the laws of the United States, . . . .and they will rightfully be placed in a federal penitentiary!!

 

[handy]

Orion,

Could you find it more reasonable to believe that all the Bible was inspired, including those old laws regarding stoning, if there was a good explanation as to why God would have such a law then, but then have it superceeded by a different law or covenant for today?

And, you are right, to an extent, in that those laws were just for then, not for now and Christians do not have the spiritual duty to act upon them. The area where I begin to differ with you is the apparent assumption that you seem to have (and if you don't have this assumption, by all means correct me!) that if the laws about stoning witches were only for ancient Judea, then it must not have been inspired by God.

You see, I believe that God did actually dictate those old laws. In all of Scripture, it's the Law of Moses that is the most easy to prove as being directly from God. However, I don't think that the fact that Christians don't follow them today isn't a matter of 'picking and choosing' but a matter of understanding what changed under the New Covenant.

This thread is getting long, and I admit that I've just kind of skimmed the last few posts, but I think you mentioned somewhere that it's only the 'unpalatable' of the laws that we don't follow today. Really there were some things in the old Judean laws that would be nice. Like the whole "year of jubilee" concept where every 50 years debts were forgiven, land seized because of debts returned to the family, and slaves were set free. The year of Jubilee basically kept Judea from becoming a class-based, oppressive society. Also, there is a discussion elsewhere on the board regarding cities of refuge, a place that God commanded that anyone accused of manslaughter could flee to one of six cities and be safe from avengers. So, it's not just the 'unpalatable' laws that were left behind under the old covenant.

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you're greatest problem with the idea that all of the Bible is inspired and comes directly from God is that there is some really terrible things that the Bible says God told men to do, and that doesn't line up with your idea of what a loving God should be about. Which is why I asked the question that I started this post out with. I'd like to give you a chance to answer that question, and get some feedback from you on this, because if this is true, then the issue isn't exactly the case for Biblical inspiration as much as it is what kind of God do we have.

 

[Orion]

Thank you, handy, for your caring replies. I appreciate the way you choose to react to those who have opposing views.

When we are talking about "laws that were for then and not now", as I contemplate them along with the ". . . same yesterday, today, and forever..." I have to wonder about how God can have one view of a particular sin (or rather the CONSEQUENCES of that sin) and just a [relatively] few short years later, in regarding the length of eternity, have a 180 degree reaction to the same sin.

As for "God telling the Hebrews to kill, plunder, and enslave foreigners", yes, I DO have issues with such actions being from God. It seems more like a nation's way of [true] protecting itself, but also their way of gaining lands that they didn't occupy before, and claiming a "promised land" as theirs. Here's the way I think it PROBABLY happened. If you have a very religious group of people, afraid of the consequences of "disobeying their God", . . .then you have priests that SAY that God is directing them to "conquer here and there", you will have the resources of a large group of people afraid to disobey and bring down judgement upon themselves. This can be seen in the scripture. If they won in battle, God was with them. If they DIDN'T win a battle. . . . . "well then someone wasn't living correctly, sinned, or something, so let the "witch hunt" begin for the offenders". It's a wonderful way of keeping people in line and doing what you want them to do, then blaming some of them if defeat happens. That way, the people don't question God as to why they lost a battle.

Again, that's just how I personally can see it happening back then.

 

[Vic C.]

If someone doesn't want to "pick and choose", that's their deal, just remember that many of them (the laws found in the OT) will cause these people to break the laws of the United States, . . . .and they will rightfully be placed in a federal penitentiary!!

It really isn't a matter of picking and choosing, it's a matter of which laws apply to which covenant. Maybe a quick intro concerning Covenant Theology might help.

For instance, there isn't one commandment in Exodus 20 that violates a single Law in the US. If anything, it upholds the very basis of our Bill of Rights!

You see, I believe that God did actually dictate those old laws. In all of Scripture, it's the Law of Moses that is the most easy to prove as being directly from God. However, I don't think that the fact that Christians don't follow them today isn't a matter of 'picking and choosing' but a matter of understanding what changed under the New Covenant.

Yup! That was the point of my post on the previous page and what I said above.

Orion, God's moral code, which we refer to as the 10 commandments, are everlasting.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The ceremonial laws, for the most, have been fulfilled in Christ. Scripture is too numerous to mention here.

Judicial laws also must change over time and because of progress and culture, among other things.

We don't stone witches, slaves, adulterers, etc., though we do have a way of dealing with the worst of the criminals. (capital punishment is a different discussion, folks, do lets not go there, here)

 

[Orion]

Okay, I understand that perhaps these may have been for "that old covenant". But again, God is supposed to be the same yesterday, today, and forever. How does that work in how God isn't being the same to adulterers?

In the Old Testiment, adulterers are to be stoned.

In the New Testiment, Jesus said to the lady caught in the act of adultery, "Who is here to accuse you?" When the lady said, "No one." Jesus replied, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more".

That seems like a 180 degree turn around in thought, does it not?

 

[Vic C.]

I see where you are coming from, Orion. Let me ask, are you familiar with Biblical Theology and God's progressive plan of revealing Himself and His plan to mankind? This is a branch of study that may help one understand the nature of God and His overall plan for Man.

 

[handy]

One thing about it Orion, is that your doubts regarding both God and the Bible aren't unreasonable or illogical. The scenario of a ruling class keeping the common folk under control by creating a frightening god, isn't all that crazy, as a matter of fact, I do believe that it is exactly what happened in several cultures. But, I think there is ample evidence to point to the fact that it didn't happen with God and the Israelites. If it weren't for Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, I would be right there with you. However, Jesus changes everything, and the Holy Spirit confirms the change.

You said:

When we are talking about "laws that were for then and not now", as I contemplate them along with the “ . . . same yesterday, today, and forever..." I have to wonder about how God can have one view of a particular sin (or rather the CONSEQUENCES of that sin) and just a [relatively] few short years later, in regarding the length of eternity, have a 180 degree reaction to the same sin.

First of all, it's insightful of you to separate the consequences from the view of the particular sins. Because I think we can all agree that God's view of sin is the same yesterday, today and forever, but it's also true that the consequences of sin is indeed very much changed.

As Vic has mentioned, this gets into what's known as 'covenant theology'. And, I don't think that a side-trip into covenant theology is de-railing the thread regarding biblical inspiration, because it's usually when one fully understands God's covenant's with mankind that one can truly see the continuity of the Scriptures and how truly inspired such continuity is.

Grace had listed a number of covenants between God and man, but to simplify things I'd like to just keep with what the New Testament deals with as far as there being the old covenant, the Law and the New Covenant, the covenant of grace which was ushered in when Christ died on the cross.

I had asked before whether or not you would find it more reasonable to believe that all the Bible was inspired, including those old laws regarding stoning, if there was a good explanation as to why God would have such a law then, but then have it superceded by a different law or covenant for today?

That question is based in the two covenants between God and man, the Law and Grace. God did have His purposes for the Law, and yes the Law was undoubtedly harsh. There was both a practical purpose for the Law and a more spiritual purpose, both of which were important. The practical purpose of the Law was that there was a nation of people, a rather small nation, settled in an important location at the crossroads of the great ancient civilizations and the Mediterranean. In this location a small nation face two very real threats, conquest or assimilation. The practical application of the Law in Judea ensured that this tiny little nation could both protect itself from being conquered and also not to fall into assimilation by the cultures that surrounded it. A read through the Old Testament is fascinating when one reads it from this point of view. Time after time, God enables the Israelites to vanquish foes much larger than themselves, and time after time, they stray into the dangerous territory of picking up the bad habits of their neighbors, such as following after other gods. Had the Law not been so strict, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation today, because the Israelites would have gone the way of the Hittites, the Canaanites, the Moabites and any number of these other small nations that nobody would know of today if it weren't for the Biblical account of them. When you think about it, it's really amazing that such a small and insignificant nation held onto its identity from the time of Ancient Egypt to the time of the Roman Empire. No one knows for sure exactly when the exodus took place, but we're talking at the very least more than 1000 years.

Now, the unique thing about the Romans is that they would more or less let any culture practice what they wanted to, as long as they paid the necessary taxes, and didn't cause trouble. Whereas one of the first things the Babylonian conqueror's and the Persian conqueror's did was to demand that the conquered worship their gods, the Roman's really didn't care as much about religion as they did money. This is one of the reasons why the Romans were as successful for as long as they were. (There are a lot of parallels to be made between Rome and America, but that's a different subject.)

Because of Rome's liberal attitude towards the cultures they conquered, it was far easier for the church to spread throughout Rome, than it would have been during any other time. This has been suggested as why Jesus came when He came, and I think it's a sound enough theory. Keep in mind that the Jews didn't proselytize; they weren't interested in the least in having their religion spread to other nations. Christianity on the other hand has, as it's primary commandment, "Go ye, into all nations and make disciples."

Again, I'm not getting into the spiritual aspect of the Law at all in this mini (hopefully not boring) dissertation. I'm just trying to point out why the Law was as strict and harsh as it was. God has always choosen to work through humans, from the time He left it up to Adam to tell Eve the commandment regarding that tree in the middle of the Garden, throughout the national history of the Jews, all the way through the church age, until today. And, as men, the 'nation' of Israel, would never have survived throughout history had it not been for its strict adherence to a very harsh law.

Does this make any sense at all, do you agree with any of it?

 

[Orion]

Hey guys, I have to leave the computer for the rest of the evening and don't have time to read what has been posted. I'll get back to this discussion tomorrow. I hope you all have a good evening!

 

[Orion]

I'm finally back to my computer.

handy, thank you for the [relatively] long disertation. I understand what you are saying, . . . .but am not sure I agree with it. I've heard preachers say that "God created such a law knowing that no one would be able to live up to it, and to realize that they need a savior". I've also heard the notion that "God was keeping the Hebrews pure in order to 'bring in the messiah' to the world".

I have a feeling that there would have been a savior of mankind regardless of what nations he/she came from. I have heard so much about "protecting Israel's purity" and them being "God's chosen people", . . . yet they refused to see Jesus as the messiah, and figured that the messiah would lead them out of trouble and be a concuring king. . . . .and where did they get that idea? Was it from the Old Testiment? And if it WAS, why did they view that figure differently than Jesus lived his life? Jewish people don't see Jesus as the messiah and are still "looking for him".

More than that, what's the purpose of this "chosen people" if the plan of salvation was for the entire world and not just Israel, . . whom are mostly unsaved today?! A savior, then, doesn't matter where they come from, and only serve to spotlight a group of people over all other nationalities, placing a "favoritism of God" upon them where rather "all men are to be equal" regardless of nation. It makes no difference what the savior's heritage is, then, and if the Hebrews HAD been destroyed compeletely by the Hittites, then I suspect that God would still not have been thwarted and a plan of salvation would still have taken place.

Where I DO appreciate your posts, vic and handy, I personally don't find it to be something that I can openly agree with.

 

[Vic C.]

Where I DO appreciate your posts, vic and handy, I personally don't find it to be something that I can openly agree with.

It shouldn't be personal, but that's ok. 8-)

You didn't answer my questions though. Are you familiar in any way with Biblical and/or Covenant Theology? Your questions are answered in the study or these theologies, if one is willing to study them without prejudice or preconceived notions. If I begin to elaborate on what I know about Biblical theology and if handy begins to elaborate on Covenant theology... and we add to that anyone else who interjects, this thread will become a mess.

We're not trying to convince you to believe what we believe; we are pointing you in the direction you need to go to get these answers for yourself.

 

[handy]

Yep, vic has it right! (He usually does!)

For instance, your question as to why the Jews didn't accept Christ: Along with all the prophecies concerning the Messiah there was also the prophecy that the Messiah would be rejected. And keep in mind that, although many Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, many embraced Him as well. Those heady, early days of the church, when thousands were being saved, those thousands were for the most part Jews. I don’t know how many Jews were in Judea at the time, but I would imagine that when thousands were converting, it was a significant portion of the population. Studying Biblical theology and covenant theology will point out these things.

Your questions can be and in fact are answered by the Scriptures. But, forgive me if I make a personal (and very possibly wrong) observation regarding you. I believe you’re trapped in a vicious circle. You have doubts about God, because you have questions regarding why He would do things the Bible claims He does. Your questions have answers in the Bible, but you doubt the Bible, because you doubt that God has inspired the Bible, because you have questions as to why He would do the things the Bible says.

An open-minded study of theology can answer those questions, but, the real question is, just how open are you to finding out the answers? Please, please don’t misunderstand me. Earlier in this thread, I had asked why atheists come around here. Wavy answered that he is recently an ex-Christian and debating things help him “let it goâ€Â. Wavy doesn’t have questions as much as he simply wants to argue out the last vestige of faith that remains. I, for one, am not willing to help him in this endeavor. I believe you when you say that you have earnestly sought God. But, you have serious doubts that the God you've been familiar with for the past 39 years is 'real' because of the way the Bible protrays Him. I truly don't want to discuss these things with you, if your point is only to have your prejudices confirmed. However, if you are truly seeking answers, well then, as vic says, I'd love to help you find them.

 

[Orion]

Vic, I'm sure I have heard those topics before, but as handy points out, . . . .and has accurately discerned, there really IS a viscious circle in my ability to join you all where you're spiritually at. Many of the things in the OT don't make a lot of sense to me, outside of the writings being from a person, during that OT time, writing down what was talked about 2nd, 3rd, 4th, . . . . 11th hand.

Here's the trouble. My problems aren't just what I have discussed. My problem is with the "faith needed to believe it was so". . . as written in the Bible. "Faith", to me, has been unsatisfying and has left me empty. Faith that God is actively working in the world, let alone MY life, is something that I question. I don't feel God, I don't sense God, when I would pray, I felt competely awkward and alone. There was no "still small voice". I'm told that I "just have to have faith", but my brain won't accept that as "being real", in the sense of the supernatural and how it affects my life. So, when I am supposed to "have faith" that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, . . . . . I'm left scratching my head.

Just being honest here. Maybe the Holy Spirit is choosing to NOT prod my heart. :-?

 

[handy]

A very honest confession, Orion. I'm sure that it's one shared by many, many folks who would never publically admit it.

I can say with all assurance that I don't believe for a moment that the Holy Spirit isn't prodding your heart. Just the fact that you keep coming here and asking the hard questions to me is proof that the Holy Spirit is indeed drawing you. You still care about it, you still struggle with it. As long as you care, so does He.

I believe there is a big difference between faith and blind faith. Blind faith is the kind of faith where one doesn't seem to need any kind of prodding or proofs, they simply accept. Frankly, I can admire someone for that, to have such unshakable faith they never question anything, but the thing is that kind of faith is very rare. What you're expriencing isn't the testimony of faith that folks have, but more a kind of hypocrisy that is pervasive in the church, a tendency to write off most folks very real questions with the bromide, "You gotta faith." "You gotta have faith" makes for a pop George Michael song, but the Bible is far more practical.

You see, filled throughout the scriptures are reasons to believe. God gave the Israelites and the Egyptians reasons to believe that Moses was speaking for Him. Moses didn't simply go up to Pharoah and say, "There's a god out there in the desert, and he told me to tell you to release all the slaves. Don't believe me, well you just gotta have faith." All the things that Moses did, from the staff turning into the snake to the Nile turning to blood, was given by God as evidence that Moses was telling the truth. Evidence to provide reasons to believe.

By the same token, when Jesus came, He came with a history of prophecies to fulfill, miracles to perform and wisdom to impart, all to give reason to believe.

When the Apostles were spreading the gospel throughout Asia Minor, they pointed to eyewitness accounts and urged folks to search the Scriptures to confirm what they were saying. Acts 17:17 states that while Paul was waiting for Silas and Timothy in Athens, he was "reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present." The key word here being "reasoning" meaning that there is are reasons to believe.

It's been said that the heart can only rejoice on what the mind comprehends. Orion, I believe that you would gladly love to allow your heart to rejoice, but you're being intellectually honest enough to admit that you don't have the comprehension yet. And that's OK, because one's faith should be built upon a solid foundation of truth, rather than sifting sands of emotions.

I've studied Biblical inspiration and inerrancy, and I believe that there are very good reasons to believe that God has given us a message that we can depend upon to be true. I've said many times before that I believe the God who inspired the Bible was also able to preserve the message it contains for all of us. I don't think there is anything at all wrong with seeking out solid reasons to have faith, and studying the veracity of the Scriptures is a good place to start.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Vic, I'm sure I have heard those topics before, but as handy points out, . . . .and has accurately discerned, there really IS a viscious circle in my ability to join you all where you're spiritually at. Many of the things in the OT don't make a lot of sense to me, outside of the writings being from a person, during that OT time, writing down what was talked about 2nd, 3rd, 4th, . . . . 11th hand.

You replied earlier about this statement I made. “If any word of the Bible is not from God then none of it is. None of it is reliable.â€Â

Okay, now THAT is a ridiculous statement.

What was meant by this statement is that if it is not all inspired by God…then we are left to pick and choose what is God’s Word and what is man’s word. So how to we do this….

• Hum…I don’t understand this part…must be from man.
• Hum…this doesn’t sound like what God would ask us to do…must be from man.
• And this part…the dry list of genealogy…what purpose does this serve? Must just be man killing time.
• Wow…I agree with this…I’ll bookmark this.
• Or perhaps we just flip a coin.

Nope…it should be understood that it is all God’s word and it is all true and necessary.

Here's the trouble. My problems aren't just what I have discussed. My problem is with the "faith needed to believe it was so". . . as written in the Bible. "Faith", to me, has been unsatisfying and has left me empty. Faith that God is actively working in the world, let alone MY life, is something that I question. I don't feel God, I don't sense God, when I would pray, I felt competely awkward and alone. There was no "still small voice". I'm told that I "just have to have faith", but my brain won't accept that as "being real", in the sense of the supernatural and how it affects my life. So, when I am supposed to "have faith" that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, . . . . . I'm left scratching my head.

I say, God Bless you. God has giving you more faith than you may think...You keep hanging in there.

Matt 5:6
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
KJV

Just being honest here. Maybe the Holy Spirit is choosing to NOT prod my heart. :-?

I was saved at a very early age, (9). My father died when I was 10 years old. Later, (much later) I was married and was living a good Christian life for several years…then my wife left for no apparently reason. I began to drift away from church and His word. I became very successful….but also miserable. I prayed everyday when I road home in my new Corvette that God would somehow give me back the peace of is presence. But it just would not come. (be careful what you pray for) God humbled me!

I instinctively knew where to go…God’s word. This confused me even more. I was praying and studying every day, but still nothing…no “small voiceâ€Â, (at least I didn’t think so).

Much later, I had not given up; I was still praying and studying.

I was camping. I was reading scripture. I decided to take my Bible and go sit on the dock and read there. It was getting late…the lake was calm. The geese were getting ready to settle down for the night. The campers had their fires started. I could hear a few boats still on the lake. People talking, dogs barking, a gentle sound of the water as it slapped against the side of the boat tied to the dock.
As I read the scripture I suddenly felt so hopeless I began to weep. I fell to my knees and began to pray. I asked Him, “Why oh Lord, why…I’m studying so hard. Please tell you what you want me to do…â€Â

Suddenly every noise in the entire camp ground went away. Total silence. Then I heard something in my soul. I did not hear it with my ears it came from inside me. The voice said, “I’m not yet finished you.†This was not the small voice you spoke of, the small voice was what kept me from giving up, and it was always with me. The same way it is keeping you. I still don’t understand what He wants me to do entirely and I still weep sometimes. But I know He is there and I know he will answer all my questions and doubts when they need to be answered.

Luke 18:18-23
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
KJV

Orion…you have that small voice speaking to you. Hold on to it, even when you don’t think it’s there. You would have already fallen by the wayside if the seed had not been sown in soil fertile enough to keep you.


God Bless

 

[Orion]

Interesting posts, handy and Grace. I'm not sure how to respond to that. I don't feel like I have the faith necessary to accept the "whole gospel". I hope that won't be held against me in the end. If I'm competely wrong, then I will admit it. As of now, I'll just have to keep on searching for that ever so elusive truth.

 

[handy]

Fair enough, Orion. And we'll be glad to share whatever we can to help you in your search.

It seems a little funny to ask this, but there has been so many postings and so many different facets of this discussions, I would like to know. Would you like to start a fresh discussion on the inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures? Or do you have enough to 'chew on' for now?

 

[Vic C.]

Interesting posts, handy and Grace. I'm not sure how to respond to that. I don't feel like I have the faith necessary to accept the "whole gospel". I hope that won't be held against me in the end. If I'm completely wrong, then I will admit it. As of now, I'll just have to keep on searching for that ever so elusive truth.

If I may interject for a moment...

I'm still not sure I if I understand what the "whole Gospel" is to you, but let me point out a couple of things I know the Gospel not to be:

It isn't believing every word or story of the Bible, you will find that nowhere in scripture. The Bible itself is not some sort of "good luck" charm.

It isn't believing man's traditions, or teachings either

It isn't a set of rules one must follow or else endure the Wrath of God. God's Grace is not contingent upon anything we do nor is it conditional based on what God may do. Example, "I will do that if God does this first." <<< It doesn't work that way.

The Gospel is actually wrapped up in one beautiful verse:

John 3:16

That verse, rather He, is the center of it all. I don't believe it possible to start at the "bookends" and work inward. In this case, start at the center and work your way outwards. You may never get to the "ends" of the "book" but that's ok, Orion. Understand who Jesus is and more importantly, what it is He did, for mankind to achieve salvation.

 

[Orion]

Fair enough, Orion. And we'll be glad to share whatever we can to help you in your search.

It seems a little funny to ask this, but there has been so many postings and so many different facets of this discussions, I would like to know. Would you like to start a fresh discussion on the inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures? Or do you have enough to 'chew on' for now?

handy, I think I have enough to chew on for now. I don't agree with many on what it all means, but I see what you're saying, and though I many not see every word as even "someone being inspired to write down those thoughts", I can see that God could have been a catalyst for many of the various texts.

Thanks for your input. If I get stuck again, I'll either come back to this thread, . . . or start a new, less crazy one. :wink:

 

[Orion]

If I may interject for a moment...

I'm still not sure I if I understand what the "whole Gospel" is to you, but let me point out a couple of things I know the Gospel not to be:

It isn't believing every word or story of the Bible, you will find that nowhere in scripture. The Bible itself is not some sort of "good luck" charm.

It isn't believing man's traditions, or teachings either

It isn't a set of rules one must follow or else endure the Wrath of God. God's Grace is not contingent upon anything we do nor is it conditional based on what God may do. Example, "I will do that if God does this first." <<< It doesn't work that way.

The Gospel is actually wrapped up in one beautiful verse:

John 3:16

That verse, rather He, is the center of it all. I don't believe it possible to start at the "bookends" and work inward. In this case, start at the center and work your way outwards. You may never get to the "ends" of the "book" but that's ok, Orion. Understand who Jesus is and more importantly, what it is He did, for mankind to achieve salvation.

Well, I can agree with your "one beautiful verse" you gave. Several others too, actually. When I said "the whole gospel", I was meaning the belief in all that's writen in there, . . . .and especially those who believe the literal-ness of a story. I found it interesting that you would say, "It isn't believing every word or story of the Bible, you will find that nowhere in scripture."

I expect that those things that I may find "less than believable". . . . will be the things that really aren't the main focus of what is most important. I doubt that I WILL ever reach the "ends of the book", but I hope to rather reach the "ends of the divine". I suspect that where my search takes me, . . . if God cares for me, and I'm sincere, . . . I probably won't stray too far off.