How can you say, "ALL the Bible is directly from God"?

[Vic C.]

I found it interesting that you would say, "It isn't believing every word or story of the Bible, you will find that nowhere in scripture."

Yup, I said it. If my understanding of, lets say, Daniel 9:24-27 or even something a bit more broad in scope, Genesis 1 and 2, differs from someone with a more fundamental or literalistic belief, am I damned for that?

I expect that those things that I may find "less than believable". . . . will be the things that really aren't the main focus of what is most important.

Good to hear! I believe we've narrowed things down considerably. Down with fatalism and UP with Hope! LOL

 

[handy]

Thanks vic! Like a good surgeon, you've been able to delve right to the heart of the matter.

Orion, I just want to say that this has been one of the most encouraging and hopeful discussions I've entered into here at 123. I really do think that you will find all the answers you need to come to faith. If you can accept John 3:16 you are in a very good place!

Gotta go!

 

[Orion]

vic and handy, I really appreciate the way you handled this thread. Rather than "brow beating me", as some would do, you have approached it with the best attitudes I know. Not only just on THIS thread, but I've noticed the same thing on other threads. handy, I was looking at another topic and one of your posts. You have a gentleness of spirit that I admire!

vic, definitely no damnation regarding your views on Genesis 1-2, or whatever other text. Anyone who throws that word at you needs to take a step back and evaluate their actions.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

In another topic, I was discussing with another member about my problems with seeing all that is in the Bible as "word for word, straight from the mouth of God". I know it is one of the biggest claims of the Christian church, shared by many denominations. I just don't happen to share it...

I believe the reason why people find it hard to believe is because some people interpret the Bible literalistically. When they do, some of what the Bible says can seem ridiculous.

How the authors wrote "under the inspiration" from God is not the same as coming directly from God's mouth, so to speak. Many people do not take into account the cultural and idiomatic contexts in which the scriptures were written, and so read crazy things into the texts. Reading the Bible "in context" does not mean reading the whole chapter: It means reading it in the context of Semitic culture, which few of us can do.

The best tool I have seen for interpreting the Bible was given by the Second Vatican Council, and is laid out in the Catechism Of The Catholic Church thusly:

The Holy Spirit, Interpreter of Scripture
LINK: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 2.htm#art3


110 - In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking, and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."

111 - But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.

112
1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture." Different as the books which comprise it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.

The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.

113
2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church." According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture ("according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").

114
3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith. By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
The senses of Scripture

115 - According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 - The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."

117 - The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction."
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.

118 - A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith; The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Interesting posts, handy and Grace. I'm not sure how to respond to that. I don't feel like I have the faith necessary to accept the "whole gospel". I hope that won't be held against me in the end. If I'm competely wrong, then I will admit it. As of now, I'll just have to keep on searching for that ever so elusive truth.

Here is some interesting reading.
Most people have read and know what Psalms 23 is talking about some even know it by heart. I have not heard much mentioned about Psalms 22.

When reading Psalms 22 keep in mind that it was written in the 10th centry B.C. by David. After reading it...then turn to Matt 27:33 and begin reading. Read both over several times. Two scriptures written by two different authors over 1000 years apart.

God Bless you Orion.

 

[mutzrein]

The best tool I have seen for interpreting the Bible was given by the Second Vatican Council, and is laid out in the Catechism Of The Catholic Church thusly:

The Holy Spirit, Interpreter of Scripture
LINK: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 2.htm#art3

What are you saying here CC? That only Catholics have the Holy Spirit and therefore they alone correctly interpret scripture?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The best tool I have seen for interpreting the Bible was given by the Second Vatican Council, and is laid out in the Catechism Of The Catholic Church thusly:

The Holy Spirit, Interpreter of Scripture
LINK: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 2.htm#art3

What are you saying here CC? That only Catholics have the Holy Spirit and therefore they alone correctly interpret scripture?

Did you see me anywhere say that only Catholics have the Holy Spirit? You are putting words in my mouth. I say enough stupid things on my own from time to time - I don't need more attributed to me. The truth is, the Catholic Church's stand on our seperated brethren (protestants) is far more kind than the reverse. The Catechism states:

CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety... ...Those "who believe in Christ.. ..are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
SOURCE LINK:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... art9p3.htm

Thats what we say about you. But often, my seperated brethren have called us the Whore of Babylon, Anti-Christ, Idolotors, and many other terrible things. You tell me which is more kind.

 

[mutzrein]

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 2.htm#art3[/url]
[/b]

What are you saying here CC? That only Catholics have the Holy Spirit and therefore they alone correctly interpret scripture?

Did you see me anywhere say that only Catholics have the Holy Spirit? You are putting words in my mouth. I say enough stupid things on my own from time to time - I don't need more attributed to me. The truth is, the Catholic Church's stand on our seperated brethren (protestants) is far more kind than the reverse. The Catechism states:

CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety... ...Those "who believe in Christ.. ..are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
SOURCE LINK:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... art9p3.htm

Thats what we say about you. But often, my seperated brethren have called us the Whore of Babylon, Anti-Christ, Idolotors, and many other terrible things. You tell me which is more kind.[/quote:31c5b]

Thanks for clarifying that. The way your words were couched indicated that the Catholic Church was the one which had the Holy Spirit and therefore their interpretation (alone) was the right one. Actually I still think that since you believe your interpretation is correct, anything (or anyone) else is imperfect in their relationship with you - and therefore God. Is this not true?

BTW - I have also been called anti-christ, a false prophet, false teacer, heretic, belonging to a cult - and even of the occult. :-?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...The way your words were couched indicated that the Catholic Church was the one which had the Holy Spirit and therefore their interpretation (alone) was the right one. Actually I still think that since you believe your interpretation is correct, anything (or anyone) else is imperfect in their relationship with you - and therefore God. Is this not true?

Well, I will not back away from what I believe. Yes, I believe regarding correct doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of Truth, and that the Councils and Popes enjoy the charism of Infallibility when solemnly teaching on matters of Faith & Morals. That is one particular gift of the Spirit.

But, what I said to you was also true: We all have the Holy Spirit, and we all have DIFFERENT gifts. As it says in Ephesians 4:11 - "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers..."

Before you go crazy on me about Infallibility, I invite you to read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

Peace Be With You

 

[JayR]

Is the Catholic Catechism the teachings of the supposively infallible popes?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Is the Catholic Catechism the teachings of the supposively infallible popes?

The Catechism Of The Catholic Church is a compilation of 2000 years of the teachings of Christ's Church. Sources include first and foremost the Bible, and the great eccumenical councils, popes, doctors of the Church, and the early church fathers such as Polycarp, Irenaeus, Eusebius, Ambrose. No one book can fully encompass the richness of the Christian faith, but the Catechism is the finest piece of systematic theology in that regard. It is based around the Creed which we recite at every Mass:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[JayR]

What does the Catechism teach about predestination and Romans 9 in particular?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What does the Catechism teach about predestination and Romans 9 in particular?

Before I engage you again, I must have your word that you will not do what you did earlier in that other thread.

 

[JayR]

Which is what, tear down the lie that causes you to believe that the catholic church is the only church that the gates of hell won't prevail against?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Which is what, tear down the lie that causes you to believe that the catholic church is the only church that the gates of hell won't prevail against?

I've tried to be your friend, but I see now that you are not going to let that happen. If you want to know what the Catechism teaches, read it. Here is the link:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

 

[JayR]

I'm not to bid Godspeed to those who advocate and promote the transgression of the doctrines of Christ.

Also, exposing to you that you are believing a lie is unfriendly?

 

[mutzrein]

...The way your words were couched indicated that the Catholic Church was the one which had the Holy Spirit and therefore their interpretation (alone) was the right one. Actually I still think that since you believe your interpretation is correct, anything (or anyone) else is imperfect in their relationship with you - and therefore God. Is this not true?

Well, I will not back away from what I believe. Yes, I believe regarding correct doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of Truth, and that the Councils and Popes enjoy the charism of Infallibility when solemnly teaching on matters of Faith & Morals. That is one particular gift of the Spirit.

But, what I said to you was also true: We all have the Holy Spirit, and we all have DIFFERENT gifts. As it says in Ephesians 4:11 - "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers..."

Before you go crazy on me about Infallibility, I invite you to read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

Peace Be With You

May I ask how you received the Holy Spirit?

 

[biblecatholic]

I'm not to bid Godspeed to those who advocate and promote the transgression of the doctrines of Christ.

Also, exposing to you that you are believing a lie is unfriendly?

JayR, why can you not talk in a Christ-like manner? Aren't those who have the Holy SPirit new creatures? Has your heart not been transformed?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

May I ask how you received the Holy Spirit?

I don't think there is any one simple answer to that question.

I believe I received the Spirit when my sins were washed from me in Baptism, and I believe I was strengthened with the Holy Spirit through the sacrament of Confirmation. These are sacramental liturgical events and they are very inportant.

But on a more personal level, I pray to God daily, and ask my Father in heaven, in the name of Jesus, to strengthen me with His Spirit and give me the grace I need to be a good Christian. This is very important to me too.

You see, I believe that those Catholics who participate in the sacraments and the liturgy without any interior conversion of heart are merely going through sterile motions. But, I also believe that my non-Catholic brethren who have sincere hearts yet reject the seven sacraments instituted by Christ have rejected beautiful gifts Christ gave to His Bride, the Church.

For some people, its an "either/or" matter, but for me its a "both/and" matter.

 

[Vic C.]

The last 1 1/2 pages have little to do with the OP and his questions.

PLEASE, lets keep the conversation topical. :-? The topic is whether or not the Bible is the inspired word of God. It has nothing to do with RC doctrine.