How did Jesus Christ save us?

[francisdesales]

joe you speak of santification. our slow change to be more like him. that is we are forgiven at the cross then saved from the power of sin. and saved bodily when returns

that is a process, jesus saved us and is saving us and will save us. yes he said this we are one , i in you and you and i.

Yes.

Here is an analogy that I think may be helpful...

Imagine us as a beaker of black liquid. We are full of evil and have nothing morally good within us that would warrant or merit salvation. Christ would be represented by a jug of white liquid, ready to be poured into the beaker. However, our beaker is full.

So we must remove part of the black fluid from our beaker. If we have a particular fault, say, arrogance or pride, we must pour out a bit of that. We must call upon the Lord to fill us with Himself. He pours some of Himself (the Spirit of God) and the mixture of the black and white changes us. Not as black as before. We still have other issues. Other faults. Perhaps we have a tendency to steal little things from work. Pour out some more of ourselves and pour some more of the Spirit in.

Love is poured into us and we are being MADE pure. There is no need to think of Christ as a "legal covering". That is not salvation, that is a legal status that still leaves us terribly wounded and with the propensity to be selfish and self-centerred.

As you said, Jason, it is a process. For the majority of us, it will not be "completed" upon our death - and God will have to finish the process to completely purify us.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

On the surface, by definition, (ie....infused vs Imputed) I can see where one can say that.

Like infused vodka flavors, vs implying a flavor by representation of a particular flavor on the label. (Imputed)

So let's discuss this.

How does one actually have 'Righteousness" in them by infused means? Not figuratively so much as literally, because the word infused is literal by definition.

Christ's Spirit is literally poured into us. Not just by legal mandate and declaration (without any real presence). Christ's presence within us is REAL. It has effects. Anyone in Christ can see how they change, their attitudes, their LIFE. Legal status does not do this alone. A legal status would imply no real change, just a name change by the Judge. We would still be "evil" by our actions. THose in Christ really CAN love unconditionally and follow the Law.

The righteousness is our own, but not ONLY our own, since the Spirit makes this possible. God is not being judged, we are being judged. How are we using the gift given to us (talents parable!)

Oh, and sorry I haven't been more active here. I will try to visit here more often.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Interesting question..

And here's perhaps one of the least favorite scriptures concerning salvation..

If ye shall seek to SAVE your life ye shall lose it, and if ye shall lose your life for Me and the gospel.. ye shall SAVE it.

IMO, most don't even believe that.. people think that they're good, that God is making them better.. etc etc.. flat out against the simple teaching of the scriptures.

You want to be saved... lose your life for the Lord Jesus Christ and the gospel.

Infinitely easier said than done..

The opposite of Love is not Hate, but Selfishness.

Love is the giving of self to the other. We know what selfishness is.

We have a propensity to be selfish. WE must die to that selfishness. As we die to that, we give of ourselves to others, we BECOME more like Christ, Who gave of Himself completely and totally. FREELY (not as a requirement upon God)...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Catholic and some other Christian make a distinction between initial justification , when we are first saved, and final justification, when we face the final judgement.

To me this is to say, how well did you do being saved?

Protestants believe that justification is a singular act in which God declares an unrighteous individual to be righteous because of the Crucifixion of Jesus. (period), and that Justification is granted to all who have faith, but even that is viewed as a gift from God by reformed Protestants, such as "Lutherans and say Presbyterians. This is the understanding of "Imputed" righteousness.

In this view we are not merged with Christ, but rather bridged to Christ, connected, with the conduit being faith.

Both views agree to good works, but place faith before works. However, one is more meritorious and places an accounting of merit for the final justification, where as the other does not.


((( Is that fair Joe? )))

Oh no, you used the "C" word...!

I think we take the idea of "mystical Body of Christ" much more literally. We are as an actual cell in this body, and as long as we draw life from It, we remain part of it. A lead bullet can be within the Body, but if it draws no life from it, it does not belong, does not grow, does not draw life from it. People can be "within" the Body by sitting in the pews on Sunday, but are they drawing their life from Christ's Body? Are they swearing and cursing in the parking lot on the way out trying to see the football game at the house?

While "we" (fully Catholic - those baptized are already "Catholic...) see the usefulness of stating that we are imputed with Justification, it is MUCH MORE than that. We are not just CALLED just because we are under a Christ, we are being MADE into that image of the fullness of man, the Second Adam. The purpose of Christ's coming was not JUST to give us a "title", but to CHANGE us! A new nature. The one that we were INTENDED to have before Adam's sin.

Christ is the true human nature as God intended. We are being made into that image. We are not just given a title - the elect. We are being MADE the elect. Examine your lives, Christians. Don't you see the work of God within you and you are PART of that!

Regards

 

[Eventide]

The opposite of Love is not Hate, but Selfishness.

Love is the giving of self to the other. We know what selfishness is.

We have a propensity to be selfish. WE must die to that selfishness. As we die to that, we give of ourselves to others, we BECOME more like Christ, Who gave of Himself completely and totally. FREELY (not as a requirement upon God)...

Regards

Not sure what point you're trying to make here.. are you implying that we really don't need to lose our life for Christ in order to save it..? Just not be selfish ?

IMO the scriptures affirm that we're not good..

The flesh and the Spirit.. and there are none good but one, that is God.

All men are condemned in Adam (flesh) and justified freely IN CHRIST..

Put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts..
Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts..
I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me..
Seek those things which are above, for ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God..
If any man shall come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Me..

Can a man serve two masters ?

 

[Danus]

Oh no, you used the "C" word...!

I think we take the idea of "mystical Body of Christ" much more literally. We are as an actual cell in this body, and as long as we draw life from It, we remain part of it. A lead bullet can be within the Body, but if it draws no life from it, it does not belong, does not grow, does not draw life from it. People can be "within" the Body by sitting in the pews on Sunday, but are they drawing their life from Christ's Body? Are they swearing and cursing in the parking lot on the way out trying to see the football game at the house?

While "we" (fully Catholic - those baptized are already "Catholic...) see the usefulness of stating that we are imputed with Justification, it is MUCH MORE than that. We are not just CALLED just because we are under a Christ, we are being MADE into that image of the fullness of man, the Second Adam. The purpose of Christ's coming was not JUST to give us a "title", but to CHANGE us! A new nature. The one that we were INTENDED to have before Adam's sin.

Christ is the true human nature as God intended. We are being made into that image. We are not just given a title - the elect. We are being MADE the elect. Examine your lives, Christians. Don't you see the work of God within you and you are PART of that!

Regards

Catholic, Catholic, Catholic, Catholic, Catholic....can I not say Catholic? I like the word.....Catholic. It starts and ends well on the tongue. ....Ok , fun aside.

I don't see the protestant version of Justification as legalistic at all. I realize some might. : However, the Roman Church...and I could be speaking of any church in Rome, but the big one over on main st, says that we must be "Good" in some manner. You elude to it as well.

"People can be "within" the Body by sitting in the pews on Sunday, but are they drawing their life from Christ's Body? Are they swearing and cursing in the parking lot on the way out trying to see the football game at the house? "

This seems far more legalistic to me. However, you changed an idea I want to touch on, in saying - "While "we" (fully Catholic - those baptized are already "Catholic...) see the usefulness of stating that we are imputed with Justification"

By "WE" you mean you and others who are Catholic. and by "we are imputed with Justification"....You mean you and others who are Catholic.

Imputed with justification and imputed the righteousness of Christare not the same at all. However they could mean the same depending on the definition one puts into them.

Why are you then not 'Infused"with justification since the goal there seems to actually become Christ.

Being Christ and being 'LIKE" Christ are not mutual. Do you think?

Is a cussing Christian less justified than the non-cussing Christen?

 

[Sinthesis]

I do not believe we are "infused" but that His righteousness is "imputed"....

It is both, but in different ways to different ends.

can you explain :

We are infused with His righteousness via the Holy Spirit to do the good works of Christ as part of His Body during our time on Earth. Yet at the end, our sinning self is still present in some proportion. Thus to be counted as perfect, His righteousness is imputed at the time of judgment. Thereby we receive a reward we do not merit.

 

[Danus]

It is both, but in different ways to different ends.



We are infused with His righteousness via the Holy Spirit to do the good works of Christ as part of His Body during our time on Earth. Yet at the end, our sinning self is still present in some proportion. Thus to be counted as perfect, His righteousness is imputed at the time of judgment. Thereby we receive a reward we do not merit.

Ah cool.

There is a guy who wrote on this, but I can't recall his name. I'll look it up, but if you know of it let me know.

I kind of like the concept, but how might we test it by scripture? We have the word 'Imputed" in scripture, but not to my knowledge "Infused."

Any takes on that?

 

[jasoncran]

joe, the jewish mindset that i have been taking points to that idea.

the nation of isreal was the visual representation of the works of the lord in when they went they had god blessing and stamp of approval.

when christ died that went from them alone to the gentile and them in a new type of worldwide nation of a visible nation that god shows to the world.

 

[francisdesales]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here.. are you implying that we really don't need to lose our life for Christ in order to save it..? Just not be selfish ?

Indeed, that is how we lose our life - we die to self and allow Christ to fill us up. Yes, we must die to self(ishness). We do so by calling upon Christ to abide in us.

IMO the scriptures affirm that we're not good..

That is why we need Christ to fill us up.

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me..
Seek those things which are above, for ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God..

I think we are saying the same thing. But when we state "my life is hidden in Christ", that doesn't mean we do nothing. WE must become sanctified. Christ already is holy. We will be judged, not Christ's holiness and obedience to the Father's will.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I don't see the protestant version of Justification as legalistic at all. I realize some might. : However, the Roman Church...and I could be speaking of any church in Rome, but the big one over on main st, says that we must be "Good" in some manner. You elude to it as well.

Most non-Catholics I speak with do consider justification as a legal matter, a status. Not all do, no doubt. It is something that cannot be lost.

"People can be "within" the Body by sitting in the pews on Sunday, but are they drawing their life from Christ's Body? Are they swearing and cursing in the parking lot on the way out trying to see the football game at the house? "

This seems far more legalistic to me.

"Being good" is evidence of our faith, is it not? It is evidence of Christ abiding within us. People can STATE that they are in Christ, but if they "hate their brother, they are a liar"...

Clearly, there is an aspect of "doing" involved in faith and holiness.

However, you changed an idea I want to touch on, in saying - "While "we" (fully Catholic - those baptized are already "Catholic...) see the usefulness of stating that we are imputed with Justification"

By "WE" you mean you and others who are Catholic.

Those theologians who most would consider "catholic" by ecclesiastical connection. We do consider the baptized as "catholic", but not ecclesiastically or "visibly". There is only one Church, and by baptism, we are attached to that Church.

Imputed with justification and imputed the righteousness of Christare not the same at all. However they could mean the same depending on the definition one puts into them.

True. I am not sure about the 'later', since we are not given Christ's righteousness, per sec. This is part of the original thread post. Christ doesn't give His righteousness to us as if we were "separate". We are righteous because we are indeed part of Christ...

Why are you then not 'Infused"with justification since the goal there seems to actually become Christ.

We do consider one is justified by infusion (which goes beyond imputed justification)

Being Christ and being 'LIKE" Christ are not mutual. Do you think?

Agree, which is my theme, I believe.

Of course, we are not ontologically made Christ, but we are indeed so attached to Him (nothing, not even death can separate us from His Love) as to be called part of the same Body.

Is a cussing Christian less justified than the non-cussing Christen?

We see justification as an ongoing part of our life, as you noted before. We do not see justification as only the first step of our relationship.

We are just in God's eyes as we obey God's Law. I think there is pretty good precedent for this in OT and NT.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

joe, the jewish mindset that i have been taking points to that idea.

the nation of isreal was the visual representation of the works of the lord in when they went they had god blessing and stamp of approval.

when christ died that went from them alone to the gentile and them in a new type of worldwide nation of a visible nation that god shows to the world.

Catholics see the same idea (as we agree on many Jewish ideas originally expressed).

We see the Church as the continuation of the Incarnation. God acting through human flesh. Christ continues to work through men (and women) through the Church. God's mercy, forgiveness, love, etc , often is expressed in this way.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Indeed, that is how we lose our life - we die to self and allow Christ to fill us up. Yes, we must die to self(ishness). We do so by calling upon Christ to abide in us.

And don't you see this coming down to the old man (flesh) versus the Spirit of Christ within us ?

These are contrary to one another, the flesh and the Spirit.

I think we are saying the same thing. But when we state "my life is hidden in Christ", that doesn't mean we do nothing. WE must become sanctified. Christ already is holy. We will be judged, not Christ's holiness and obedience to the Father's will.

Two sides to this imo.. positionally we are dead according to scripture, we have been crucified with Christ and the life of Christ in us is justified.. practically we must put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and put on the righteousness of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

IMO it's not the old man getting better.. he's corrupt and there is nothing good in him.. it's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me.

 

[jasoncran]

Catholics see the same idea (as we agree on many Jewish ideas originally expressed).

We see the Church as the continuation of the Incarnation. God acting through human flesh. Christ continues to work through men (and women) through the Church. God's mercy, forgiveness, love, etc , often is expressed in this way.

Regards

the jews kinda would be glad to hear that in a sense. as you well know even now jews despise christians for our past treatment for them at times. i have had that talk with my dad a time or two.

 

[francisdesales]

And don't you see this coming down to the old man (flesh) versus the Spirit of Christ within us ?

I don't think we are bystanders in our santification.

These are contrary to one another, the flesh and the Spirit.

True.

Two sides to this imo.. positionally we are dead according to scripture, we have been crucified with Christ and the life of Christ in us is justified..

Positionally dead?

IMO it's not the old man getting better.. he's corrupt and there is nothing good in him.. it's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me.

I think I described that with my analogy of fluid...

Regards

 

[Danus]

Most non-Catholics I speak with do consider justification as a legal matter, a status. Not all do, no doubt. It is something that cannot be lost.



"Being good" is evidence of our faith, is it not? It is evidence of Christ abiding within us. People can STATE that they are in Christ, but if they "hate their brother, they are a liar"...

Clearly, there is an aspect of "doing" involved in faith and holiness.

I understand what you mean, but i don't see true faith (Justification) as a legal matter, and I accept that many Catholics don't either, but it's more than safe to say, that we have people in both of our camps who see the "legal' side of justification. Fair?

I want to take this one step further, and deeper to discus what the leadership of our two camps believe.

This could be very sticky since unlike your camp, we do not have a formal head.

That gives me the advantage of picking on your official word, and you the advantage of picking any group of protestant you choose, but I would ask that you stick within the reformation leaders as far as doctrine.

Shall we go there and talk more about justification?

 

[glorydaz]

Interesting question..

And here's perhaps one of the least favorite scriptures concerning salvation..

If ye shall seek to SAVE your life ye shall lose it, and if ye shall lose your life for Me and the gospel.. ye shall SAVE it.

IMO, most don't even believe that.. people think that they're good, that God is making them better.. etc etc.. flat out against the simple teaching of the scriptures.

You want to be saved... lose your life for the Lord Jesus Christ and the gospel.

Infinitely easier said than done..

That's recorded in all four gospel, but did you notice the one in Luke?

Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Lot's wife couldn't resist looking back at what she'd left behind.

 

[Eventide]

I don't think we are bystanders in our santification.

Neither do I.

Positionally dead?

Paul writes that we are to set our affections on things above and not on the things on the earth, for ye are dead he says.. or.. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

How do you reconcile these scriptural truths..?

I think I described that with my analogy of fluid...

Regards

Analogy of fluid ?

 

[francisdesales]

Paul writes that we are to set our affections on things above and not on the things on the earth, for ye are dead he says.. or.. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

How do you reconcile these scriptural truths..?

I am not sure what truths you want me to reconcile. I don't understand how this explains "positionally dead."

Analogy of fluid ?

#41.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

the jews kinda would be glad to hear that in a sense. as you well know even now jews despise christians for our past treatment for them at times. i have had that talk with my dad a time or two.

I can't imagine what Jews must feel when they consider their history of persecution. It would probably be of little comfort to state that all Christians did not have the same feelings towards Jews, even during the Holocaust. What is interesting is that the head Rabbi in Rome converted to Catholicism after WW2, so I guess that says something...

Regards