How do later Gentile views of "the Word" in John 1 differ from the original Jewish-Christian understanding, and what are the theological implications?

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Jesus was no son, until He was born of a woman.
That is when the Word took on flesh.

Nope!

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

From a oneness perspective, it is essential to distinguish between the concepts of the "Word" and the "Son." The Word (Greek: Logos) in John 1:1 refers to God’s eternal self-expression, which was with God and was indeed God. However, this Word does not refer to a separate, preexistent “Son” as though there were a distinct, second divine person existing alongside the Father in eternity. Instead, the "Word" is understood as God’s own mind, thought, and purpose, present within God Himself from all eternity and not yet manifest in any tangible form. The “Word” only became the “Son” when it took on flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible makes it clear that the Son of God refers to God’s entrance into human history through the miraculous conception and birth of Jesus. Galatians 4:4 says, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.” Here, Paul clarifies that the Son was "made of a woman"—indicating that the Sonship began in time, at the incarnation. The title "Son" therefore specifically refers to God’s relationship with humanity in the incarnation, where He took on human nature for the purpose of redemption.

Hebrews 1:5 reinforces this point by quoting God’s words about the Son: “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” This passage speaks of a particular day, a moment in time, when the Son was begotten. If the Son were eternally preexistent, there would be no “day” of His begetting; it would contradict the scriptural assertion of the Son’s beginning in time.

Thus, the oneness of God understanding is that the Word was indeed God’s own self-expression, eternally existent within Him. But the Word only became the “Son” at a specific point in time—when God manifested in flesh as Jesus Christ, who is both fully divine and fully human. Jesus is the Word made flesh, not a second divine person but God the Father Himself, entering our world in the role of “The Son” to accomplish our salvation. Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." This revelation emphasizes the fullness of God’s redemptive work in Christ, consistent with strict monotheism and a deeply relational understanding of God’s love for humanity.

No comments to the historical context of John's use of "Logos"?

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I know Jesus was born of a woman, but who was the Word born of ?
If the Word was always a Son of God, who was His mother ?

The Word was Begotten of the Father.

 

[My Rock]

No comments to the historical context of John's use of "Logos"?

So you completely agree with everything I said in my comment?

 

[JLB]

I know Jesus was born of a woman, but who was the Word born of ?
If the Word was always a Son of God, who was His mother ?

Could you answer my question?


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Do you believe the Angel of the LORD is the Father or the Son?

 

[Free]

I know Jesus was born of a woman, but who was the Word born of ?

God, don’t you know?

Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
…
Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

If the Word was always a Son of God, who was His mother ?

The Word was not “always a Son of God,” but always the Son of God. There is only one and he is eternally begotten or generated. That is the teaching of Scripture.

 

[JLB]

The Word was Begotten of the Father.

I agree.

However, this could mean several things.

So to be clear, let’s ask when?

When was the Son begotten of the Father.

Was He begotten when He was conceived by Mary?

Or, was He begotten by the Father before the foundation of the world?

Obviously He was begotten before the foundation of the world, since the foundation of the world was laid by Him.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-18

• He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

• And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:-10

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

So you completely agree with everything I said in my comment?

No. It is just that I did not say what I said in my post to you concerning John's use "Logos" for nothing. What I said impacts this conversation and, indeed, John's use of that word is the very topic of this thread that you started yourself.
So why no commentary to that by you?

 

[My Rock]

The Word was not “always a Son of God,” but always the Son of God. There is only one and he is eternally begotten or generated. That is the teaching of Scripture.

The idea that the Word is “eternally begotten” as the “Son of God” can be challenged by emphasizing that Scripture teaches a singular, indivisible God who became incarnate as the Son of God in time, not in eternity. The concept of “Sonship” can be understood as a role or office that began with the incarnation—when the eternal Spirit of God (the Father) was manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The title “Son” thus pertains specifically to God’s redemptive work and His incarnation, rather than to an eternal, distinct person within the Godhead.

In John 1:1, “the Word” (Greek: Logos) is not a separate, eternally begotten Son but the self-expression of God, His divine reason and plan. When John writes, “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1:14), he is describing the moment when God’s eternal Word—His plan and purpose—became a reality in the man, Jesus Christ. The term “Son” is applied only to Jesus’ role in the flesh, not to the Logos in eternity past. Therefore, the Son was not eternally begotten but “begotten” in the sense of a unique, historical act of God in the incarnation. I would maintain that Scripture affirms the Son’s existence within the framework of time, emphasizing that Jesus Christ, as God manifest in flesh, fully reveals the Father rather than existing as a second, eternally begotten person.

 

[My Rock]

Because the Son of God is the eternally begotten Word of God.

The terms “eternally” and “begotten” present a theological paradox because, by definition, they contrast with each other.

Eternally implies an existence without beginning or end. Something eternal has always existed, outside the constraints of time, with no point of origin.

Begotten, however, means “brought into existence” or “generated.” The term denotes an action within time, suggesting a starting point when something comes into being.

When combined as "eternally begotten," the terms are contradictory because it implies a beginning (begotten) that somehow has always been (eternally). This idea raises questions about how something could be "generated" yet have no beginning, as generation typically requires a distinct point of origin.

In Christian theology, the phrase "eternally begotten" is sometimes used to describe the relationship of the Son to the Father in Trinitarian thought, suggesting an ongoing, timeless "generation" of the Son by the Father. However, from a logical perspective, this phrasing creates a contradiction because it ascribes an origin (begotten) to something claimed to exist without origin (eternally). This conceptual difficulty has led to alternative interpretations where the term "begotten" is understood as referring to a specific moment in time—the incarnation—when God manifested Himself in flesh, rather than to an eternal relationship between two divine persons.

 

[My Rock]

Was He begotten when He was conceived by Mary?

Yes Absolutely!

Obviously He was begotten before the foundation of the world, since the foundation of the world was laid by Him.

Begotten here only in the sense that God had the son in mind before the world began. We have to remember God is Omniscient and outside of time and sees ALL future, otherwise He is not Omniscient. But He was not physically begotten until being born through Mary. The foundation of the world was laid by Him. (The Word not The Son) Remember God spoke (The Word) the world into existence.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Firstborn over creation in the sense He is the only Firstborn Sinless God born of a virgin to ever exist.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I agree.

However, this could mean several things.

So to be clear, let’s ask when?

When was the Son begotten of the Father.

Was He begotten when He was conceived by Mary?

Or, was He begotten by the Father before the foundation of the world?

Obviously He was begotten before the foundation of the world, since the foundation of the world was laid by Him.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-18

• He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

• And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:-10

There you have it.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

The terms “eternally” and “begotten” present a theological paradox because, by definition, they contrast with each other.

Eternally implies an existence without beginning or end. Something eternal has always existed, outside the constraints of time, with no point of origin.

Begotten, however, means “brought into existence” or “generated.” The term denotes an action within time, suggesting a starting point when something comes into being.

When combined as "eternally begotten," the terms are contradictory because it implies a beginning (begotten) that somehow has always been (eternally). This idea raises questions about how something could be "generated" yet have no beginning, as generation typically requires a distinct point of origin.

In Christian theology, the phrase "eternally begotten" is sometimes used to describe the relationship of the Son to the Father in Trinitarian thought, suggesting an ongoing, timeless "generation" of the Son by the Father. However, from a logical perspective, this phrasing creates a contradiction because it ascribes an origin (begotten) to something claimed to exist without origin (eternally). This conceptual difficulty has led to alternative interpretations where the term "begotten" is understood as referring to a specific moment in time—the incarnation—when God manifested Himself in flesh, rather than to an eternal relationship between two divine persons.

There is no contradiction for those who understand that "eternal" means "no beginning and no end". That state of being is completely incomprehensible to human beings. Our entire existence is saturated with beginning and ending. Everything we experience is something that begins and ends, even our own lives.
However, it has been revealed to man that God exists without beginning and without end. The contemplation of that, in and of itself, can cause the human mind to balk.
Suppose God hits a ball in eternity. How does that work out? Hitting a ball has a beginning and an ending, right? So, let's start with that question.
How does it work out in eternity for God to hit a ball?
To make it even more complicated....
Suppose that after He hits the first ball, He hits another one. How does that work in eternity, where there is no beginning and no end?

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Yes Absolutely!

Begotten here only in the sense that God had the son in mind before the world began. We have to remember God is Omniscient and outside of time and sees ALL future, otherwise He is not Omniscient. But He was not physically begotten until being born through Mary. The foundation of the world was laid by Him. (The Word not The Son) Remember God spoke (The Word) the world into existence.

Firstborn over creation in the sense He is the only Firstborn Sinless God born of a virgin to ever exist.

Just pointing out here that you have apparently abandoned discussing John's use of the term "Logos".

 

[My Rock]

There is no contradiction for those who understand that "eternal" means "no beginning and no end". That state of being is completely incomprehensible to human beings. Our entire existence is saturated with beginning and ending. Everything we experience is something that begins and ends, even our own lives.
However, it has been revealed to man that God exists without beginning and without end. The contemplation of that, in and of itself, can cause the human mind to balk.
Suppose God hits a ball in eternity. How does that work out? Hitting a ball has a beginning and an ending, right? So, let's start with that question.
How does it work out in eternity for God to hit a ball?
To make it even more complicated....
Suppose that after He hits the first ball, He hits another one. How does that work in eternity, where there is no beginning and no end?

To that I have no response except what you are saying which is "The Word simply was"

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

To that I have no response except what you are saying which is "The Word simply was"

Nope!
I asked you a question about God hitting a ball. I asked you what if He hits one and AFTER THAT hits another?
The answers are strikingly simple.
There is NO AFTER AND NO BEFORE in eternity.
Thus, every ACTION that God takes HAS NO BEGINNING OR END.
Thus, if God hits two balls, then God is presently hitting two balls without beginning and without end.
That is impossible for you or I to grasp fully.
Applied to the Word:
God has ETERNALLY Spoken forth His Word. He has also eternally been SILENT, with His Word abiding in His Bosom.
This is why the Word is the Beginning and the End of Creation.
Contemplate these things. It is pleasurable to do so.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Word was Begotten of the Father.

Where in the bible does it say the Word was born ?
As God is eternal, and without beginning or end, so too is the Word who was with God and was God !

When the Word took on flesh, He became Jesus Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Could you answer my question?


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Do you believe the Angel of the LORD is the Father or the Son?

Neither.
An angel is an angel.
When Moses turned to look at the burning bush, he saw the angel, (Ex 3:2-3): and when God saw that Moses looked at the bush, and angel, God spoke to Moses. (Ex 3:4)

 

[Hopeful 2]

God, don’t you know?

It is interesting to think you don't believe the Word was with God from the beginning.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
…
Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

The Word has always been, but Jesus has only been since the year one.

The Word was not “always a Son of God,”

Correct.
He couldn't be a son until being born of a woman.

but always the Son of God.

Better make up your mind.

There is only one and he is eternally begotten or generated. That is the teaching of Scripture.

Generated/begotten infers a beginning.
Jesus had a beginning.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Where in the bible does it say the Word was born ?
As God is eternal, and without beginning or end, so too is the Word who was with God and was God !

When the Word took on flesh, He became Jesus Christ.

It quite plainly states in the first chapter of John that the Word is Begotten.
God has eternally Spoken His Word forth. That is how the Word is Begotten of the Father.
The Word is how the Father Created the Cosmos. He Spoke the Cosmos into existence.
That is why the Word was "in the beginning" and why the Son is "The Beginning and the End".
This thread is an examination of the terms John used in his Gospel.
You fail to place John 1 in the context of the culture it was written in and to.
The Greek Christians whom John was writing would have immediately understood that John was likening Jesus with the Logos and the Father with the Monad Who eternally produces the Logos. This is why the term "Begotten" cannot be in reference to the Nativity. Not to mention the extremely blasphemous implications of asserting that the Father "Begot" the Son WITH Mary.