How do later Gentile views of "the Word" in John 1 differ from the original Jewish-Christian understanding, and what are the theological implications?

[μυστήριον]

The idea of God being both “One” and “multiple persons” presents a contradiction. Either God is truly One, indivisible in essence, or He consists of distinct persons.

God is truly one in His Being (essence) indivisible—not having parts, nor components, nor committees, nor societies making up His Being—the ontological Being of God is simple and one. This is, in general, divine simplicity.

The contradiction you posit in your writing rests upon the understanding of "person" as defined by our human experience, and not "person" as it is used with regard to the Father, Son, and Spirit within trinitarian doctrine.

If God is divided internally into persons, that division contradicts the concept of true oneness, as even internal distinctions imply separateness. Unity in essence cannot allow for internal division without compromising the integrity of being one and undivided.

I would agree with the above statement were the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, to each have their own independent will and separate self-consciousness awareness—just as we each have.

Instead, the Father, Son, and Spirit, have the one very same will and self-consciousness awareness that is God, Himself. Otherwise, as you have aptly pointed out in various posts three distinct individual wills and three separate self-consciousnesses will be speaking of three individual gods.

"Person" as it is used of the Father, Son, and Spirit, speaks only to the eternal relations of origin—Father, unbegotten; Son, begotten; Spirit, spirated—this is what distinguishes one person from the other; and, these relations subsist co-equally and co-eternally within God's Being without division.

Therefore, asserting both oneness and multiplicity within God leads to a logical inconsistency.

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.

 

[JLB]

I cannot elevate an angel to Godhood.

No one is asking you to do that.

I’m only asking you to believe the words of scripture.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to himin a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed…
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.


The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses.

The Angel of the LORD spoke with Moses.

The Angel of the LORD stated He was the God of Abraham.

Moses was looking at the Angel of the LORD in the burning bush. Moses stated He was afraid to look upon God.


There were only two individuals in these passages:

Moses and the Angel of the LORD.


Angels are called sons of God in scripture.

The Angel of GOD would the be the Son of God.



When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22



In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them.
Zechariah 12:8


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1Timothy 3:16

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I cannot agree with that.

Let's look at a different passage of Holy Scripture:
Explain to me Who they are seeing in Exodus 24: 9-11? If you say "The Father", then explain how they have
A) Seen God and lived
B) Seen "The Invisible God".
Remember here that the Father is said in Holy Scripture to be invisible and that Jesus Himself stated emphatically that "No man hath seen the Father at any time".
So, Who are they seeing, with that in mind, in the following passage of Scripture?
Exodus 24: 9-11
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No one is asking you to do that.

You are doing that !

I’m only asking you to believe the words of scripture.

Yeah ?
An angel appears to Moses in a burning bush...right ?
God notices, and speaks to Moses...right ?

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to himin a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed…

OK.

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

That is God speaking, and not the angel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Let's look at a different passage of Holy Scripture:
Explain to me Who they are seeing in Exodus 24: 9-11? If you say "The Father", then explain how they have
A) Seen God and lived
B) Seen "The Invisible God".
Remember here that the Father is said in Holy Scripture to be invisible and that Jesus Himself stated emphatically that "No man hath seen the Father at any time".
So, Who are they seeing, with that in mind, in the following passage of Scripture?
Exodus 24: 9-11
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Good morning D'.
Those Israelites saw the Word.

 

[follower]

Let's look at a different passage of Holy Scripture:
Explain to me Who they are seeing in Exodus 24: 9-11? If you say "The Father", then explain how they have
A) Seen God and lived

B) Seen "The Invisible God".
Remember here that the Father is said in Holy Scripture to be invisible and that Jesus Himself stated emphatically that "No man hath seen the Father at any time".

So, Who are they seeing

Who may not be as good a rendering as what. They saw whatever God chose for them to see. Right ?

YHVH IS SPIRIT . No parts. No pieces. No flesh. Nothing worldly . No sin. No sinfulness even possible.
Invisible. A consuming fire. A still small voice. As He Pleases.

 

[Free]

The Word became the Son of God at His birth from the union of God's Spirit and Mary.

The Word was always the Son. It's worth noting that you don't actually address Scripture, but just keep repeating your opinion.

He did have a beginning, at His birth from Mary.

Jesus the God-man did, yes.

If Jesus had a human nature, (He did),that nature was not evil.

For him and him alone, yes.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Good morning D'.
Those Israelites saw the Word.

Correct!
The Word is "The Angel of the Lord".
Good morning to you too.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Who may not be as good a rendering as what. They saw whatever God chose for them to see. Right ?

YHVH IS SPIRIT . No parts. No pieces. No flesh. Nothing worldly . No sin. No sinfulness even possible.
Invisible. A consuming fire. A still small voice. As He Pleases.

Jesus very plainly states :
John 1:18
"18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
Surely, Jesus did not lie, right?

 

[JLB]

That is God speaking, and not the angel.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to himin a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed…
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.


The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses.

The Angel of the LORD spoke with Moses.

The Angel of the LORD stated He was the God of Abraham.

Moses was looking at the Angel of the LORD in the burning bush. Moses stated He was afraid to look upon God.


There were only two individuals in these passages:

Moses and the Angel of the LORD.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Word was always the Son. It's worth noting that you don't actually address Scripture, but just keep repeating your opinion.

Does being a son require a mother ?

Jesus the God-man did, yes.

You mean the Word-man...right ?

For him and him alone, yes.

Initially, yes.
But now, all who have been REborn of God's seed have the same nature Jesus did.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Correct!
The Word is "The Angel of the Lord".
Good morning to you too.

The Word was not an angel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed…
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses.

Agreed, the angel appeared first.

The Angel of the LORD spoke with Moses.

There is no record of the angel saying anything.

The Angel of the LORD stated He was the God of Abraham.

No, he didn't.
Only God can speak those words.

Moses was looking at the Angel of the LORD in the burning bush. Moses stated He was afraid to look upon God.

When God noticed that Moses was interested, God took over for the angel.

There were only two individuals in these passages:
Moses and the Angel of the LORD.

I disagree.

This whole exchange reminds me of Col 2:18..."Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,"
I will worship no angel.

 

[JLB]

Agreed, the angel appeared first.

There is no appeared first.

The Angel of the Lord appeared, and spoke with Moses.

Moses said he was afraid to look upon God.

There is no record of the angel saying anything.

Denying the plain words of scripture only shows us you or your doctrine is not to be trusted.

The scriptures are teaching us the truth about the identity of the Angel of the LORD, who is the LORD, as well as God.

No one in the Old Testament ever saw God the Father.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

Everywhere the LORD, the Angel of the LORD, God appeared to a person, it was the Son.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.” Exodus 3:2-4


Same with Samsons parents -

Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:17-22



The LORD says it this way through Zechariah -


In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:8-10



How could you possible deny that God (the Son) became flesh?



And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is no appeared first.
The Angel of the Lord appeared, and spoke with Moses.
Moses said he was afraid to look upon God.
Denying the plain words of scripture only shows us you or your doctrine is not to be trusted.
The scriptures are teaching us the truth about the identity of the Angel of the LORD, who is the LORD, as well as God.

Our opinions differ.

No one in the Old Testament ever saw God the Father.

Agreed.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

Side tracking ?

Everywhere the LORD, the Angel of the LORD, God appeared to a person, it was the Son.

I could agree had you said the Word, instead of the Son

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.” Exodus 3:2-4
Same with Samsons parents -
Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:17-22

I don't confuse angels with any of the Godhead.

The LORD says it this way through Zechariah -
In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:8-10
How could you possible deny that God (the Son) became flesh

It was the Word that 'became flesh'.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

All that, and never called an angel !

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

The Word was not an angel.

Not a created angel. The Angel of the Lord.
Just as the Elders of Israel saw the pre-incarnate Christ, so too did Moses. So too did Monoah and his wife when they saw the Angel of the Lord. All manifestations of God on earth are Christ. He is the VISIBLE EXPRESSION of the Father. No man has ever actually seen the Father Himself. They have only seen Christ.
JLB provided you with a different Scripture showing another incident with the Angel of the Lord appearing to Monoah and his wife. After the visitation, Monoah states that he and his wife will surely die because they just SAW GOD.
Angel of the Lord = Visible manifestation of God, on earth not a created angel = Pre-incarnate Christ.

 

[Free]

Does being a son require a mother ?

Not in the case of the Son, as the Bible clearly shows.

You mean the Word-man...right ?

No, God-man.

Initially, yes.
But now, all who have been REborn of God's seed have the same nature Jesus did.

No, at least not fully.

2Co 4:16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. (ESV)

 

[JLB]

Our opinions differ.

No opinion just scripture and the truth it teaches us.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3:2

Who was Moses looking at?

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2

The scripture plainly says Moses was afraid to look upon God.


The scripture plainly says the same thing in Judges -

Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:17-22

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not a created angel. The Angel of the Lord.
Just as the Elders of Israel saw the pre-incarnate Christ, so too did Moses. So too did Monoah and his wife when they saw the Angel of the Lord. All manifestations of God on earth are Christ. He is the VISIBLE EXPRESSION of the Father. No man has ever actually seen the Father Himself. They have only seen Christ.
JLB provided you with a different Scripture showing another incident with the Angel of the Lord appearing to Monoah and his wife. After the visitation, Monoah states that he and his wife will surely die because they just SAW GOD.
Angel of the Lord = Visible manifestation of God, on earth not a created angel = Pre-incarnate Christ.

If it is an "angel", it is not a manifestation of God.
Manoah and wife were mistaken.
In their amazement, they mistook an angel for God.

Why don't you just believe what is written ?
If scripture says it was a angel, why not just know that it was a angel ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not in the case of the Son, as the Bible clearly shows.

No, God-man.


No, at least not fully.

2Co 4:16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. (ESV)

Our opinions differ.