How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[Lonelyguide]

Re: messiah

Can any of the moderators please explain in simple terms what they understand to be concept of original sin and its implications? Thanks

I hope you don't mind that I am not a moderator, but here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
you can find quite some input on original sin.

One explanation, however, is lacking in the Wikipedia page and that is the explanation which can be found in the text book of ACIM.

 

[einstein]

messiah

Thanks for your post. Having read this article I can only conclude with such a divergence of opinions among Christian sects as to what original sin is and its implications, that the doctrine itself is tenuous at best, and so ambiguous as to render its significance mute. Depending on one's interpretation it leads to philosophical conundrums. For example, if you accept the Protestant normative view that man is depraved and born into sin how do you explain Mary being "without the taint" of Adam? Surely there is no one who has any proof that Mary's parents were totally without sin, and presumably, they passed this eternal sin of Adam to her.

 

[bibleberean]

Mary was not born without sin.

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

One of the main stumbling blocks in witnessing to Jews is the fact that the bible is not used as the criterion for truth.

The bible consists of the Old and New Testaments. Both books are considered authoritative for faith and practice by Christians.

Those who are not Christians do not have to accept this but this is our forum not theirs. :D

One day all Jews will be on their knees before their Messiah they killed with "wicked hands" and they will say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".

This debate will end on that great day!

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The hard hearted and stiff necked Jews as a nation rejected their own Messiah and have been paying the price ever since.


Revelation 3:8-10 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

True Jews will repent of their national sin and come to Christ during the time of "Jacob's trouble".

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Romans 11:25-30 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

That is the way it is... :D

 

[einstein]

messiah

Are you saying that Zech 12:10 is a prophecy of what was to occur at the crucifixtion?

 

[Lonelyguide]

Re: messiah

Thanks for your post. Having read this article I can only conclude with such a divergence of opinions among Christian sects as to what original sin is and its implications, that the doctrine itself is tenuous at best, and so ambiguous as to render its significance mute. Depending on one's interpretation it leads to philosophical conundrums. For example, if you accept the Protestant normative view that man is depraved and born into sin how do you explain Mary being "without the taint" of Adam? Surely there is no one who has any proof that Mary's parents were totally without sin, and presumably, they passed this eternal sin of Adam to her.

Whether one refers to the phenomenon as "original sin," "the fall" or "the separation," what is interesting is that the Bible explicitly mentions that Adam fell into a deep sleep.

Nowhere, however, there is any explicit mention of Adam waking up ...

Would we and all of history ... like dreams within a dream ... merely be part of Adam's dream?

 

[DivineNames]

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760901.htm

The Modern Jewish Calendar

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1976

"The present calendar which governs the religious holydays of the Jewish people (and some Christian denominations) is NOT the calendar of the Bible. Though the features which govern it are wonderfully devised and represent a masterpiece of mathematical calculation, it is still different from the calendar which we find in the Bible. Indeed, it was not constructed until about 300 years after the time of Christ and it is certainly not the biblical calendar."


I don't care what the Jews say... Jesus is Lord!

Even if this were true, how would it help you?? If the verses are not about the Messiah then its irrelevant by itself.

"I have talked with many Jews and they don't tear apart what we do with the bible."

If you can't answer this kind of point, as it seems you can't, then Jews do tear apart what Christians do with the Bible.

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

Lonelyguide, you posted:

...what is interesting is that the Bible explicitly mentions that Adam fell into a deep sleep.

Nowhere, however, there is any explicit mention of Adam waking up ...

Would we and all of history ... like dreams within a dream ... merely be part of Adam's dream?

Oooooh...I LIKE it! :smt023

What've you been smoking??!! (and where can I get some?)

Be well!

Andyhill :smt006

 

[Lonelyguide]

:

 

[Soma-Sight]

Andyhill.

But I'm a bona fide Jew!

Be well!

Andyhill

Good!

I am glad to have you aboard..

This forum is not what I would call "Fair and Balanced" for the most part.

It will be good to see what someone from Israel has to say in the Christianity and Other religons section..... :angel:

 

[Soma-Sight]

Oooooh...I LIKE it!

What've you been smoking??!! (and where can I get some?)

Be well!

Andyhill

lolololol

Awesome man.....

Wouldnt THAT be the ultimate trip....

Waking up as Adam and realizing that the last 10,000 years was all a dream....

Whew!!!!

Man thats crazy!

 

[Lonelyguide]

Is it?

Is it really?

With God nothing is impossible ... and now and then I do get the impression that He has quite a sense of humour.

Andy's post made me laugh, but the question ... a serious question ... is how literally we are to take the Bible and/or to which extent we may interpret it.

... and who of us has the proper "equipment/understanding/Knowledge" to do the interpreting.

... if we are at all to interpret it.

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

Lonelyguide, you posted:

I do get the impression that He has quite a sense of humour.

To put up with our nonsense, He must have a great sense of humor!

but the question ... a serious question ... is how literally we are to take the Bible and/or to which extent we may interpret it.

... and who of us has the proper "equipment/understanding/Knowledge" to do the interpreting.

... if we are at all to interpret it.

Well...

Raymond Brown has written:

The Roman Catholic Church (and this would be true of the Eastern Churches as well) places a strong emphasis on the value of traditional faith attested through the ages. The reason for this emphasis is a belief that Christ through the Spirit continues to guide the church and will not allow it to err seriously in what it demands of its people by way of doctrinal and moral commitment. Therefore, when in the name of private interpretation of Scripture, someone stands up and says "What you have believed by way of doctrine for five centuries, or ten cenuries, or twenty centuries is all wrong; you must give that up because here is how I interpret the Bible," the Catholic Church has resisted. The type of private interpretation that the Catholic Church distrusts involves doctrinal statements based on interpretations of the Bible that deny what has been taught in the creeds or in the official pronouncements of the church.

As an orthodox Jew, I can agree with much of what Raymond Brown has said. Our approach is very similar to that of Roman Catholicism & Eastern Orthodoxy.

If 100,000 Jews people drew 100,000 conclusions from the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the "Old Testament), we would have communal anarchy very soon; indeed an organized, cohesive community would be all but impossible under such circumstances. The sheer mass of 100,000 inherently subjective, idiosyncratic it-seems-to-me's would forestall and frustrate any communal cohesion. There has to be some way whereby the community can formulate/agree on basic principles acceptable to all which can help serve as glue to bind the community. A "people of the Book" has to be able to agree, at least to a certain extent, on what the Book means.

As orthodox Jews, we believe that the origins of the vast body of Jewish interpretive and exegetical literature are rooted in the Torah itself. Deuteronomy 27:2-8 says:

And it shall be on the day when you shall pass over the Jordan unto the land which the Lord your God gives you, that you shall set you up great stones, and plaster them with plaster. And you shall write upon them all the words of this Torah...And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this Torah very plainly.

Our Sages comment on the seemingly redundant phrase very plainly. Not believing that it refers to the clarity of the etching in the plaster (that being obvious), our Sages say that it means that the Torah had to be interpreted/commented upon so that it could be easily & plainly understood by all, by each person in accordance with his/her abilities.

We see this in action in Nehemiah 8:7-8.

Also Joshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, even the Levites, caused the people to understand the Torah; and the people stood in their place. And they read in the book, in the Torah of God, distinctly; and they gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Who may interpret, expound, teach & cause to understand? Only one who is steeped in tradition and who has studied & delved into the text in great depth. (See Deuteronomy 17:8-11). This is an awesome responsibility. The Talmud quotes Rabbi Elazar from Modi'in (2nd century CE) as saying that:

He who profanes sacred things, slights the festivals, puts his fellow man to shame in public, repudiates the Covenant of Abraham our Father, or misinterprets the Torah, even though he has Torah and good deeds to his credit, he has no share in the world-to-come.

For a(n orthodox) Jew, it is our Sages, i.e. those who are steeped in tradition and who have studied & delved into the text in great depth, and who are the bearers & keepers of these oral traditions, who are uniquely qualified to authoritatively interpret the Tanakh.

Howzat?

Andyhill

 

[einstein]

messiah

Nice post, Andyhill. Looks like the moderators here are ignoring my posts, so I repeat: Do the moderators view Zech 12:10 as a prophecy fulfilled by the crucifixtion?

 

[Lonelyguide]

To put up with our nonsense, He must have a great sense of humor!

And a lot of Patience.

Hi Andy,

I appreciate the input of your above post ... and your presence in this forum.

Jesus, as does the Holy Spirit, does indeed continue to guide us, but the realm of the Spirit is the quest of the individual or, as Einstein put it, "it is to the individual that a Soul was given."

I guess that I have been privileged, because I have been allowed to have experiences which make it easier for me than for less fortunate others to recognise the Hand of my Maker in what life makes me encounter and I consequently do not seek the counsel of others but am grateful for what I receive when I receive it, knowing full well that there are no questions in the presence of Truth and that only the ego asks questions.

To be, as you call it, "steeped in tradition" and, as you say, "who have studied & delved into the text in great depth, and who are the bearers & keepers of these oral traditions" sounds very impressive, but does nonetheless not constitute a guarantee for me within the content of something as important as my Soul. For me ... only those who have experiential Knowledge of our Father through the manner in which He manifests may have somewhat of an understanding as to how He may have intended certain things. Having said that ... I am sure that study of the texts in the manner that you describe must indeed be beneficial ... if the Maker and thus the essence of His "words" are properly understood. Again for me, however, that would be difficult without experiential Knowledge.

The churches of this world should bear in mind that only Jesus can bridge the distance between God and us, that Truth is not only eternal and unalterable, but also unmistakeable and that each of us has his own altar where our Guide and Teacher, the Holy Spirit, can be received and that no man should place himself between a man and his Father.

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

Einstein, you posted:

Nice post, Andyhill.

Thanks!

Lonelyguide, you posted:

I appreciate the input of your above post ... and your presence in this forum.

Thank you...on both counts!

For me ... only those who have experiential Knowledge of our Father through the manner in which He manifests may have somewhat of an understanding as to how He may have intended certain things.

Isn't this inherently subjective? But what happens when three people who have, or believe they have, such experiential Knowledge, have three different understandings? Where is authority? How does one decide? My humble opinion is that such as you have described is far too subjective to be an authoritative guide (no offense!).

Be well!

Andyhill

 

[Lonelyguide]

Isn't this inherently subjective? But what happens when three people who have, or believe they have, such experiential Knowledge, have three different understandings? Where is authority? How does one decide? My humble opinion is that such as you have described is far too subjective to be an authoritative guide (no offense!).

Hi Andy,

In my experience the problem doesn't exist. On the internet I have compared "notes" with a meanwhile retired professor (or lector ... I'm not sure) of psychology at Berkeley who had similar experiences some twenty years before the time that I was allowed to have them and even though the words and mental constructs we both used to describe what we had experienced did differ, it was clear to each of us that we were talking about very much the same experience and the same Source.

And ... earlier this year a friend has sent me material on someone called John de Ruiter, a Canadian professor of "Integrated Philosophy." He too (he has a website incidentally: http://www.johnderuiter.com) uses different words ... very different words ... but for me it is clear beyond a doubt that He, my friend from Berkeley and I have received very similar messages.

All three accounts, Andy, were in different words and constructs, but each of them very, very clearly described the same experience and the same Source. Each of us "spoke" of the innocence and of the simplicity which we experienced and especially in the case of De Ruiter the similarities were baffling. He uses words that are very different from mine, but whenever (books, videos, public appearances, etc.) he uses e.g. his "tenderness," the manner in which he does lets me know that he is describing my "Love, Patience and Humility."

One cannot ... at least not easily ... explain these things to others, Andy. One's consciousness, in what appears to be expanded time, is lifted to a "level" where everything is clear, where all is Truth and where no questions exist. Rather than to perceive or to filter through one's perceptions one receives without filter and thus all experiences are identical. Only the words we find afterwards differ.

Incidentally ... all three of us were "awakened" in very similar ways and under similar circumstances. Actually ... so was Eckhardt Tolle.

 

[bibleberean]

The Jewish people are asleep as a nation not awake.

They are apostate and lost.

Until the Jew understands that Jesus is the Messiah and the King they rejected and killed by "wicked hands" they will suffer.

The Jews as a nation called down their own curse by their own words the day they demanded the death of Jesus of Nazareth.

John 19:6-9 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

John 19:12-15 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Matthew 27:24-25 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

The Jews have suffered ever since. The worst judgement is yet to come.

I pray for Israel and Jerusalem every single day.

I know that they will be delivered in the end.

They will see their King!

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

All Jews who reject the Messiah are lost and will die in their sins.

John 8:21-24 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Gary]

Strange that Jews with a lot more knowledge of the Tanach than you "einstein" come to a totally different conclusion.

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus by Michael L. Brown, a Messianic Jew, is a must-have resource set, the first compendium of its kind for decades.

http://store.jewsforjesus.org/ppp/produ ... prodid=429

Volume One addresses thirty-five different objections comprehensively with an engaging, readable style.

Volume Two provides real answers to twenty-eight theological objections many Jewish people raise regarding Christianity. He treats these objections seriously and fairly, building answers from some surprising rabbinic teachings as well as from the Hebrew Scriptures. As Brown's answers progressively demonstrate, belief in Y'shua (Jesus) is not something alien to Jewish tradition but is profoundly rooted in ancient Jewish tradition, fulfilling its purpose.

Volume Three looks specifically at questions raised about messianic prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel, Psalms, Haggai, and Zechariah. It's an invaluable resource for seekers and for anyone wanting to point students of the Torah to Jesus.



Some links:
http://www.messianicbible.com/about.asp
http://store.jewsforjesus.org/ppp/produ ... prodid=429

I think Michael L. Brown has done a bit more research and is a bit more qualified than you "einstein" to talk on the topic.

Dr. Michael Brown

Dr. Michael L. Brown is founder and president of ICN Ministries. As a Jewish believer in Jesus, he is active in Jewish evangelism, debating rabbis on radio, TV, and college campuses, as well as teaching the Church about God's eternal purposes for Israel and the Jewish people. He is also a published Old Testament and Semitic scholar, holding a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University. He has served as a Visiting Professor of Jewish Apologetics at Fuller Theological Seminary School of World Mission and as a Visiting Professor of Old Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

http://www.icnministries.org/about/testimony.htm

Real Messiah

This website is devoted to all seekers of truth, especially Jewish men and women who have questions about the Messianic credentials of Jesus (Yeshua) of Nazareth.

So, if you’re a believer in Yeshua with honest questions, this is the place for you. And if you don’t believe in him at all – even to the point of hostility – this is the place for you too, as long as you’re willing to hear the evidence and consider the facts.

http://www.realmessiah.com/

General Objections
http://www.realmessiah.com/OBJgeneral.htm

Historical Objections
http://www.realmessiah.com/OBJhistorical.htm

Theological Objections
http://www.realmessiah.com/OBJtheological.htm

Messianic Objections
http://www.realmessiah.com/OBJmessianic.htm

.... need more?

Who is Jesus?

A rabbi and a Messianic Jew debate the 2,000 year old question
Rabbi David Blumofe & Dr. Michael Brown

If you could travel 2,000 years back in time and be an eyewitness to a debate between Paul the Apostle and the most outstanding Pharisee over the Messiahship of Jesus, it could not be more exciting than this debate.

Orthodox rabbi David Blumofe wrote a doctoral thesis that gives more than 200 reasons why Jesus is not the Messiah.

Dr. Michael Brown, a Messianic Jew, has a doctorate in Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University.

How can two such brilliant Jews base their reputations and very lives on such opposite positions?

It's time for you to think for yourself as these two eminent scholars go toe-to-toe in a public debate: WHO IS JESUS?

http://www.realmessiah.com/resources.htm

:D :D

Dr. Michael L. Brown & Rabbi Dr. David Blumofe:

• Who Is Jesus?
  --download MP3 here--

Dr. Michael L. Brown & Rabbi Dr. J. Immanuel Schochet:

• Is Jesus The Jewish Messiah?
  --download MP3 here--

Dr. Michael L. Brown & Rabbi Tovia Singer, moderated by Sid Roth:

• Who Is Jesus?
  --download MP3 here--

 

[einstein]

messiah

Edited by bibleberean

Check your pm's

In response to Gary, I have read all of Brown's books and they are a rehash of most of the apologetic responses that we Jews have heard for centuries. They all have been refuted many times over. Brown may have been born a Jew but in his present role as a minister of a church, he is no longer part of Klal Yisrael.

 

[bibleberean]

The Jews as a nation called down their own curse by their own words the day they demanded the death of Jesus of Nazareth.

John 19:6-9 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

John 19:12-15 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Matthew 27:24-25 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
The Jews have suffered ever since. The worst judgement is yet to come.

I pray for Israel and Jerusalem every single day.

Israel as a nation is blind unto this very day.

2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Jesus said...

Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The bible states that the Jewish nation killed their own King and will suffer until they turn...

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

There is salvation in Jesus and only in Jesus. Until the Jews are willing to admit their sin to the God who loves them and sent His Son into the world to save them they will continue to die in their sins.

John 8:22-24 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Israel will be saved but only when they call upon Christ.