How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[einstein]

messiah

Christian Bibles including the New Revised Standard Version, The New Jerusalem Bible, and the Oxford Study Bible all identify Israel as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53. :D So, I guess according to your criteria and faultless logic, all members on editorial boards of these Christian bibles are "blind and perfidious" too, just like the Jews, and like us, are all going to Hell because they disagree with you?

 

[Lonelyguide]

I believe that it was in this thread that I recently happened upon posts of a member who claimed to have been inspired by Holy Spirit.

I regard this as a very serious matter. For his own sake I urge said member not to make such statements unless he can be absolutely certain that it was indeed the Holy Spirit which inspired him.

How can he be certain? Anyone who has experienced Holy Spirit will reply "how can he not be certain?" Consequently, if said member were to look deep into his heart, he will know and will refrain from making these claims henceforth.

If anyone else wishes to make claims of this kind, please realise what you are saying about yourself when you make these claims:

The Wholeness of God, which is His peace, cannot be appreciated except by a whole mind that recognises the Wholeness of God's creation. It is by this recognition that it knows its Creator.

The Voice of the Holy Spirit is the Call to Atonement, or the restauration of the integrity of the mind.

(and remember Mark 3:28-29).

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I am but a lowly computer programmer and washed-up former Evangelical pastor looking to find the rest of the road God has laid out before me

OOOOHHHH THE HUMANITY!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

(I mean - humility :wink: )

 

[Soma-Sight]

I believe that it was in this thread that I recently happened upon posts of a member who claimed to have been inspired by Holy Spirit.

I regard this as a very serious matter. For his own sake I urge said member not to make such statements unless he can be absolutely certain that it was indeed the Holy Spirit which inspired him.

How can he be certain? Anyone who has experienced Holy Spirit will reply "how can he not be certain?" Consequently, if said member were to look deep into his heart, he will know and will refrain from making these claims henceforth.

If anyone else wishes to make claims of this kind, please realise what you are saying about yourself when you make these claims:

Boasting really isnt of the Spirit is it?

 

[einstein]

messiah

Several days ago I posted under the title of Isaiah 53 but mistakenly started a new thread rather than continuing with this thread. If anyone is interested it's in this forum under "isaiah 53" and your feedback is welcome.

 

[DivineNames]

How many times have Christians on this thread alone begun an answer by saying - "The Word of God says..." and then quote a NT passage? It's no different from a moslem trying to convert a Christian by quoting the Koran.

With someone like bb, I suspect this will go over their head, because the Bible is the word of God and the Quran isn't. (so to speak.)

 

[Solo]

What may seem obvious to you is tainted by your finite understanding of the things of God. We are drawn of God to his son, and those that are drawn and reject him have chosen to live in the darkness instead of the light. God knows the heart of every man, woman, and child and he is the judge. Will there be Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Wiccans, New Agers condemned to eternal separation from God in a place of torment? Yes, those that rejected a belief in God through Jesus Christ.

Lets imagine that we ask committed Jews, Muslims and Hindu's if they have chosen to be apart from God. What do you think they will say? I am sure that they will all tell us that they have NOT chosen to be apart from God.

For anyone that is committed to one of those religions, (there may be a question with certain fundies...) which intended purpose is obedience/worship/harmony with God, to say that they have "chosen to be apart from God" is obviously not the case. If an obvious truth goes against your fundie dogma, I am not at all surprised that you deny it.

I would suggest that they seek the God that created the heavens and the earth, and not be deceived by the god of the world. All the false religions of the world lead to death, while the life given by the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is more abundant than our imaginations can conceive.

The fundamentals of the truth of God are to be proclaimed throughout the world to all nations, and when this is accomplished, the end of all wickedness will occur.

 

[bibleberean]

Luke 19:41-44 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Matthew 24:1-2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In 70 AD every stone of the Temple was torn down....

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Jewish leadership: Since 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem there has been no single body that has a leadership position over the entire Jewish community. Various branches of Judaism have various governing bodies, often subdivided by country or region. Judaism also has a number of secular organizations that take a variety of different leadership roles of various Jewish communities.

 

[Soma-Sight]

BB,

Have you ever actaully talked to a Jew in the flesh about this topic?

I am curious if they throw the OT back at a Christian???? Kind of like how we Christians have a tendancy to throw the NT at other faith groups....

 

[Guest]

Jews will tear apart what we christians do with there bible, thats why its worth listening to what judaism teaches and what they say about there messiah.

 

[Lonelyguide]

The Wholeness of God, which is His peace, cannot be appreciated except by a whole mind that recognises the Wholeness of God's creation. It is by this recognition that it knows its Creator.

The Voice of the Holy Spirit is the Call to Atonement, or the restauration of the integrity of the mind.

A whole mind .... or a mind which is no longer split and in separation; a mind consequently where the ego has dissolved c.q. has been surrendered and where the things of mind have been relinquished (Luke 14:33).

Restauration of the integrity of the mind .... again reference is made to a mind which has become whole.

Holy Spirit restaures the integrity of the mind and atones. Those who experience this will experience God's peace and can recognise the Wholeness of God's creation. They no longer separate, project, judge or live by exclusion. Rather they become a doorway for God's Love, which extends rather than projects and which includes (unites) rather than excludes.

Remember Mark 25:1-12 and Mark 25:13: Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. I trust that you understand that the oil and the lamps in this parable are nothing but respectively the Holy Spirit and the heart. Jesus wants you to live according to Mark 12:30-31 (Not a kind request, but a commandment!!!) and He wants you filled with Holy Spirit. This will not take place as long as you continue to separate, project, judge or live by exclusion!

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

DavidDavid, you posted:

Jews will tear apart what we christians do with there bible...

You mean that we will pointedly but politely disagree with you!

...thats why its worth listening to what judaism teaches and what they say about there messiah.

And we find it worthwhile listening to you guys/gals!

SomaSight, you posted:

I am curious if they throw the OT back at a Christian????

If we're either pestered or asked politely about our beliefs, sure we will. But I should like to think that believing Jews & believing can have a meaningful and friendly dialogue that is about something other than: "My interpretation beats your interpretation!" "Does not!" "Does TOO!" "Nyahh!" "Nyahh back!" ('Cause such exchanges are neither dialogues, nor meaningful, nor friendly.)

Be well!

Andyhill :smt006

 

[einstein]

messiah

Can any of the moderators please explain in simple terms what they understand to be concept of original sin and its implications? Thanks

 

[bibleberean]

Jews will tear apart what we christians do with there bible, thats why its worth listening to what judaism teaches and what they say about there messiah.

I have talked with many Jews and they don't tear apart what we do with the bible.

The bible is God's work not mans. The bible is God's word.

I have met Jews who believe that Isaiah 53 is filled with Messianic prophecies. I have met Jews who do not.


My faith is not so weak as to throw away the New testament just because a person tells me that the Old testament has been mistranslated and misunderstood.

The Jews did not understand the writings of Moses at the time Christ lived. They understand them less now.

John 12:32-42 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Those that lack true conviction and faith bolt as soon as they run into controversy.

 

[DivineNames]

I have talked with many Jews and they don't tear apart what we do with the bible.

Really?

Great Among the Gentiles
Author: Dave Hunt
Publication Date: 12/1/1998

Then there are such well-known prophecies as Daniel 9:24-25, which foretold that "the coming of Messiah" would occur 69 weeks of years (483) after the command to rebuild Jerusalem. That command was given 100 years later to Nehemiah (Neh 2:1) by Artaxerxes Longimanus on Nisan 1, 445 b.c. And 483 years later, to the very day (by the Jewish and Babylonian calendars of 360 days), Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that donkey and was hailed by multitudes as the Messiah (exactly as foretold in Zechariah 9:9) and then "cut off" as Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53 had foretold. He was crucified, as David prophesied (Ps 22:14-18) long before crucifixion was even known. His rejection by Israel was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as both Daniel (9:26) and Jesus (Mt 24:2) prophesied.

I asked about this on the "Jews for Judaism" forums. One reply-

"Total nonsense.

This 360 day year gambit was yet another Xian attempt to forcefit Daniel's 70 septats into the timing for Jsus. The only problem is that Judaism has NEVER used a 360 day year.

The Jewish calendar uses a combination of lunar and solar methods. The months work on the lunar patterns, and the years must coincide with the solar system. Jewish calendars add an extra month every three years or so. Using the real Jewish method and the Xian timing (which is wrong to start with, but we'll use it to make a point) take 445 BCE plus 483 years (69 X 7) and you wind up at 38 CE, long after even Xians say Jsus died.

Daniel speaks of two time frames (7 weeks and 62 weeks) and 2 anointed ones (messiahs). The KJV puts in "the" in front of the word "messiah" but there is no "the" in the Hebrew. More inventive translating on the part of the KJV.

Daniel says one anointed one will come after 7 weeks; and the city (Jerusalem) will remain built for 62 weeks, and after the 62 weeks, (verse 26) it will be destroyed.

BTW Daniel also says the second messiah will be so horrible he'll be spiritually cut off from G-d and the Jewish nation. Do you think Jsus was that horrible?" (sophiee)

Edited.. :-D

Can you address this point made by a Jew?

 

[bibleberean]

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760901.htm

The Modern Jewish Calendar

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1976

"The present calendar which governs the religious holydays of the Jewish people (and some Christian denominations) is NOT the calendar of the Bible. Though the features which govern it are wonderfully devised and represent a masterpiece of mathematical calculation, it is still different from the calendar which we find in the Bible. Indeed, it was not constructed until about 300 years after the time of Christ and it is certainly not the biblical calendar."


I don't care what the Jews say... Jesus is Lord! :angel:

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

 

[Soma-Sight]

Welcome Andyhill,

I hope you stick around here for a while to get a balanced view from a bona fide Jew on matters....... :P

 

[einstein]

messiah

"I don't care what the Jews say...Jesus is Lord." Now that's an enlightened and informed attitude if I have ever heard one. Never mind what the actual Hebrew of the Tanach says in Daniel- just give me the mangled version of the KJB everytime! :wink:

BTW that article re the Jewish calendar is total nonsense. According to this Ph.D the biblical calendar must be 30 day months because that's what is says in Genesis regarding the flood.Never mind that we are talking antediluvian timeframes; never mind that Noah is not Jewish; never mind that following Sinai the Jewish nation were given the ordinances that governed the festivals and new moons of the months (rosh chodesh) and never mind that keeping a 360 day year would mean celebrating Passover in the spring, then in the summer, then in the winter with the drift of seasons inherent in such a year; Never mind all that! This guy says the Jews had a 360 day year so it must be so :

 

[Solo]

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:37-38

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

Soma-Sight, you posted:

Welcome Andyhill,

Thanks!

I hope you stick around here for a while to get a balanced view from a bona fide Jew on matters...

But I'm a bona fide Jew!

Be well!

Andyhill