How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[einstein]

messiah

Another perfect example of what I have been saying all along. You quote Romans 11:26: "...as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob."

Back on Oct 27 I posted that this is mistranslation of Isaiah59:20 which reads FROM THE HEBREW: "And a Redeemer shall come to Zion (le'tsyion) and to those who repent of transgression in Jacob."

IN OTHER WORDS, Isaiah is NOT saying that the role of Mashiach is take away sins, rather he is stating when we turn away from sin, then the Mashiach will come. :D

 

[bibleberean]

Re: messiah

Another perfect example of what I have been saying all along. You quote Romans 11:26: "...as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob."

Back on Oct 27 I posted that this is mistranslation of Isaiah59:20 which reads FROM THE HEBREW: "And a Redeemer shall come to Zion (le'tsyion) and to those who repent of transgression in Jacob."

IN OTHER WORDS, Isaiah is NOT saying that the role of Mashiach is take away sins, rather he is stating when we turn away from sin, then the Mashiach will come. :D

No one is going to hold their breath for Israel to turn from it sins.

It's biggest sin is rejection of their saviour and misrepresenting the Old Testament.

This is what a true learned Jew has to say to the nation of Israel.

Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Acts 28:18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.

Acts 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

Acts 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

Acts 28:21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.

Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Acts 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

I have heard and I believe. I am a saved Gentile by the grace of God. The nation of Israel will remain in darkness until they receive Jesus Christ.

The hearts of the apostate Jew is hardened and dark.

Your knee will bow to your King.

Philippians 2:7-10 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

I don't think this is true. I know it... :D

I think a Jew that posts in a Christian forum on the Sabbath needs a lot of practice on becoming a "good Jew"... ;-)

 

[bibleberean]

What lost Jews must understand in order to be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Acts 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

Acts 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Gary]

Re: messiah

In response to Gary, I have read all of Brown's books and they are a rehash of most of the apologetic responses that we Jews have heard for centuries. They all have been refuted many times over. Brown may have been born a Jew but in his present role as a minister of a church, he is no longer part of Klal Yisrael.

Well I have read only one of his books and I have listened to all three of the debates I listed. Brown clearly defeated Rabbi Dr. David Blumofe, Rabbi Dr. J. Immanuel Schochet and Rabbi Tovia Singer in debate.

Maybe you think you can do better than these three rabbis? Why not challenge Dr. Brown to a debate?

 

[einstein]

messiah

Will you or will you not admit that Romans is a mistranslation of Isaiah 59? I am not at all concerned about your waiting for Jewish tshuvah (repentance)If you cannot admit to such a simple challenge or admit that the NT repeatedly mistranslates and misuses the Tanach for its own purposes, then ITS YOUR MIND THAT IS CLOSED to God's plan as written in the Tanach. :

 

[einstein]

messiah

Telling me what a "learned Jew" has to tell the nation of Israel and then quoting from the book of Acts,(with all its inherent errors ) purportedly authored by Luke, universally recognized as a Gentile, doen't make much sense to this blind and perfidious Jew. :

 

[einstein]

messiah

Question: Were Jesus disciples aware of his fate according to your understanding of Isaiah 53?

 

[DivineNames]

Re: messiah

If you are willing to take the Bible out of context, and ignore the problems created, then you can believe that Muhammad was predicted in the Bible. If Christians want to do the same with Jesus...

 

[Gary]

Re: messiah

If you are willing to take the Bible out of context, and ignore the problems created, then you can believe that Muhammad was predicted in the Bible.

There is no support for the idea that Muhammad is "predicted" in the Bible.

:D

 

[Lonelyguide]

Isn't this inherently subjective? But what happens when three people who have, or believe they have, such experiential Knowledge, have three different understandings? Where is authority? How does one decide? My humble opinion is that such as you have described is far too subjective to be an authoritative guide (no offense!).

Hi Andy,

In my experience the problem doesn't exist. On the internet I have compared "notes" with a meanwhile retired professor (or lector ... I'm not sure) of psychology at Berkeley who had similar experiences some twenty years before the time that I was allowed to have them and even though the words and mental constructs we both used to describe what we had experienced did differ, it was clear to each of us that we were talking about very much the same experience and the same Source.

And ... earlier this year a friend has sent me material on someone called John de Ruiter, a Canadian professor of "Integrated Philosophy." He too (he has a website incidentally: http://www.johnderuiter.com) uses different words ... very different words ... but for me it is clear beyond a doubt that He, my friend from Berkeley and I have received very similar messages.

All three accounts, Andy, were in different words and constructs, but each of them very, very clearly described the same experience and the same Source. Each of us "spoke" of the innocence and of the simplicity which we experienced and especially in the case of De Ruiter the similarities were baffling. He uses words that are very different from mine, but whenever (books, videos, public appearances, etc.) he uses e.g. his "tenderness," the manner in which he does lets me know that he is describing my "Love, Patience and Humility."

One cannot ... at least not easily ... explain these things to others, Andy. One's consciousness, in what appears to be expanded time, is lifted to a "level" where everything is clear, where all is Truth and where no questions exist. Rather than to perceive or to filter through one's perceptions one receives without filter and thus all experiences are identical. Only the words we find afterwards differ.

Incidentally ... all three of us were "awakened" in very similar ways and under similar circumstances. Actually ... so was Eckhardt Tolle.

As an afterthought within the context of your:

Where is authority?

It is a practice of this world that minds will assume dominion over other minds. In Truth all are equal in Truth and only Truth has dominion ......

.... whithout imposing it

 

[DivineNames]

Re: messiah

If you are willing to take the Bible out of context, and ignore the problems created, then you can believe that Muhammad was predicted in the Bible.

There is no support for the idea that Muhammad is "predicted" in the Bible.

:D

But if Muslims are willing to take it out of context, and ignore the problems, then they can believe it, right??

Christians can do the same with Jesus...

Wasn't anointed... didn't have Davidic lineage... :D

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

Lonelyguide, you posted:

It is a practice of this world that minds will assume dominion over other minds. In Truth all are equal in Truth and only Truth has dominion ......

.... whithout imposing it

Umm, you lost me!

While some/many/most so-called "Messianic Jews" may indeed be Jews (i.e. their biological mothers were Jews or they underwent an orthodox conversion), what they believe and practice is certainly not Judaism. I certainly do not want to insult or offend anyone here (God forbid!) but beliefs in Jesus/Yeshua as the Messiah, the "Son of God", an avatar of God Incarnate and/or a "person" within a triune God, and/or in the very idea that God could/did become flesh, etc. are totally, utterly, and completely incompatible with traditional, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism, whether of the Rabbinic or Karaite variety. (Heck, even the Samaritans would agree with us on this one!) This circle can never be squared. Jews who subscribe to the aforementioned ideas are heretics and may be apostates as well. However, they're still Jews.

Problems can/do arise when interested non-Jews, who aren't up on their comparative theology, see so-called "Messianic" Jews passing their faith off as a legitimate, albeit alternative, form of Judaism. It isn't; it's an alternative form of Christianity (I'll leave the question of whether it's "legitimate" or not up to my Christian friends). Claims & pretensions of observing the mitzvot (precepts) and our customs and traditions while believing in Jesus/Yeshua as the Messiah, the "Son of God", an avatar of God Incarnate and/or a "person" within a triune God, and/or in the very idea that God could/did become flesh, etc., are embracing the outward forms while rejecting the inner content, and are thus hollow.

I have seen more than a few Christian (!) websites that purport to state what various "Ancient Rabbis" really said or really meant regarding the nature and/or identity of the Messiah. No Jewish Sage or rabbi worth his salt has ever made any favorable references to Jesus, the Trinity or the Incarnation no matter what any would-be missionaries-on-the-make or those with a king-size axe to grind would have you believe, mistranslations and misrepresentations (whether innocent or deliberate), and badly-taken-out-of-context quotes by would-be missionaries-on-the-make and those with an agenda, notwithstanding. Claims to the contrary are preposterous.

While I certainly believe in honest & friendly :smt023 (always!) dialogue between Jews and Christians, I also believe that such dialogue must be based on a recognition that ours are two separate faiths; one can subscribe to one or the other but not both.

Be well!

Andyhill :smt039

 

[Lonelyguide]

Hi Andy,

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's. Matthew 22:21

Please correct me if I am wrong, my friend, but what you are discussing here are man's interpretations, man's dogmas and man's institutions.

In your above post ... and other posts ... you say many interesting things. I, however, am not interested in dogmas, interpretations or opinions. And since, amusing or enlightening as they may now and then be, man's dogmas and the like rarely interest me, I will leave to man what is man's, and to God what is God's. Only Truth has my focus. And man does not master Truth. Truth is master and one only encounters that Reality when one meets Its conditions.

People who don't know, Andy, will say "this is it." People who do Know, however, will say "it is like this." Why do think Jesus spoke in parables so often? He knew!

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

Lonelyguide, I don't wish to offend anybody (God forbid!) but I cannot accept this:

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.

All is God's; what is there that is not?

Please correct me if I am wrong, my friend, but what you are discussing here are man's interpretations and man's dogmas.

I must respectfully correct you amigo! I disagree.

Be well!

Andyhill :smt039

 

[Lonelyguide]

All is God's; what is there that is not?

I could explain that to you, but where you are heading I can foresee that, if I were to offer that explanation, we might end up in a game of semantics and mind and I'm no longer into that these days. The best advice I can therefore give to you is to put this question, within the context of our discussion, to those "who are steeped in tradition and who have studied & delved into the text in great depth, and who are the bearers & keepers of these oral traditions, who are uniquely qualified to authoritatively interpret the Tanakh." I am sure that they would gladly oblige.

I disagree.

Fair enough. But a "tad" easy, don't you think!?

 

[einstein]

messiah

Andyhill: I concur wholeheartedly with your statement regarding messianic Judaism. Since the moderators here have apparently decided I am persona non grata, can anyone else answere my recent posts?

 

[Lonelyguide]

Re: messiah

can anyone else answer my recent posts?

Hi Einstein,

I will always gladly help a brother, if I can, but do you really require validation from others?

Having said that ... I just read your various posts. For starters I am not getting into any "you are right and I am wrong" debates, whether they be Jewish, Christian, Jewish-Christian or anything else. I find all of that boring, especially where dogma is concerned.

What, however, you are saying about the role of the Mashiach/Messiah is interesting. I too believe that when we turn away from sin, the Messiah will come. That ... for me ... however, would be the Second Coming. But that doesn't mean that I would limit the Messiah by believing him incapable of taking sins away.

And ... frankly ... would you?

 

[einstein]

messiah

Thanks you for your response. If one accepts the Tanach as God's blueprint for trying to approach a form of goodness acceptable to the Creator, then one also accepts the teachings that sin is "taken away" by true repentance of the sinner. The notion of a human sacrifice as an atonement for the sins of others is a concept that is not a part of Judaism or the Tanach.

 

[Lonelyguide]

Hi Einstein,

My position on the contents of your above post is explained in detail in the textbook of ACIM. In many respects that position doesn't differ from yours.

That is all I will say for now, for I do not, as said previously, wish to get into a "you are wrong and I am right" debate. I am here to share.

I do, however, want to say that I am not impressed by the manner in which you "reply" here. First you repeatedly ask other members for a response to one of your posts and when I eventually take it upon me to do so ... by responding and asking you a question as well ... you do not extend to me the courtesy of a direct response to the question I asked.

Perhaps others will take this discussion further.

 

[DivineNames]

Re: messiah

Bad example. The paschal lamb was not offered for the removal of sin. It was a festive or commemorative offering. BTW, was Jesus' blood ever placed on the doorpost and lintel of anything?

Hebrews 10:1-10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The doorposts were a picture of the covering that the blood of Jesus would do. Death is swallowe up through Christ our Passover. :angel:

Was the passover sacrifice actually supposed to atone for sin?