How do you know God is real?

[Deavonreye]

So instead you rely on the words/experiences of other people that believe they have things figured out beyond the text, ancient or otherwise? Doesn't sound too different to me aside from which texts you are willing to accept.

Not sure what you're saying here. Science makes relevant and undenyable progress. They perform repeatable experimentation to qualify theories. This isn't a "faith" issue. This isn't a "believe we have things figured out". It is what makes things work. . . such as the computer you're reading this post on.

What religion does is all about "faith". . . . . and "faith" is unable to answer questions.

 

[Eventide]

Let me speak to this post, and attempt to do so without offense, as none is intended.

And none will be taken.

The story of Christ SEEMS to be wonderul on the surface. It sounds like such a loving act. However, I don't see it completely as such.

Maybe explaining how you DO see it would help.. and I know that you have said that you were a Christian in the past.. although imo that's impossible if you didn't believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God's beloved Son who gave Himself willingly for the sin of the world.. to reconcile HIS fallen creatures back to Himself.. also willingly on their part..

Everyone does things they feel are wrong, even though many things are subjective. OF those things that a person knows was wrong, I'm sure they feel sorry for it, AND of those who were offended [for argument sake, in this case, god], the desire to be forgiven.

Sure, even most unbelievers have a conscience concerning right and wrong..

That's not the case for those who do not see THIS story as being real. . . or who do not believe that any gods exist [thus not having a reason to feel that they offended it]. This does not mean that they are "rejecting the love of truth". I don't see why Christianity MUST keep saying this. If a person doesn't see it as "truth", but rather a myth, they would ONLY be "rejecting what they see as fiction". I would hope that Christians would realize this. Not everyone believes THEIR religious convictions.

I understand what you're saying.. although for the sake of a simple example.. rejecting truth has no bearing on whether or not a person 'believes' that it's truth.. does it.. ? If something IS TRUE, and YOU DO reject it while NOT believing that it's true.. is still rejecting the truth.

As to my comment about "the story of Christ not really being a true story of love" is this....... Given the fact [for sake of argument, "the fact" being true] that god loves people enough to "give them an escape from Hell out of love for them", then we must look at all the details.

Absolutely !

1. A person must believe it all on faith ONLY, . . . even though it goes against physical laws and left us with no evidence of the veracity of the story.

IMO many people (especially unbelievers) think that faith is blind.. that it's not based upon anything at all..but that's not what faith is at all.. FAITH is the substance of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE of things unseen.. faith is based upon EVIDENCE.. just like in a courtroom.. conviction comes from EVIDENCE.. and in the case of the gospel.. its entire basis is the ancient OT scriptures.. all written down and preserved through the nation of Israel and are all centered upon the person of Jesus of Nazareth.. ie, in the volume of the book it is written of Me..

So the point is that there is limitless evidence that Jesus is the Christ; the entire OT written beforehand and the NT based upon everything in it.. not to mention the internal evidence which every man can realize and understand simply by living in this life.. things like conscience and knowing right from wrong intrinsically so to speak.

 

[Deavonreye]

A few points:

Knowing right from wrong is not evidence of a god.

"Hope" is not evidence.

The "evidence of the unseen" is what, ecactly?

That is why christian "evidence" is not looked upon favorably by the scientific method. It isn't a TRUE "evidence".

The "truth" that christians profess AS truth . . . doesn't make it so because they say it is. This "truth" must first be verified . . . and ancient claims are practically impossible to do that with.

Now, I will address "Christ's sacrifice" in light of my post. God set up a rule ONLY for him. "Requiring the death of something to pay for sins." There were VERY specific steps to accomplish this in the OT. They were unnecessary. A person who used this animal to "purge sins" [in reality] didn't do anything to recify the wrong, just killed an animal. What he DID do was express his sorrow for sin and ask that it be cleansed. The animal wasn't necessary.

Why it is said to have happened was to "point towards Christ's work on the cross". None of the OT steps for sin offering were done to Jesus. Even if they HAD, . . . what exactly did Jesus "give willingly"?

 

[Eventide]

A few points:

Knowing right from wrong is not evidence of a god.

It certainly separates us humans from the rest of creation.. and where do you suppose that this internal conviction comes from ?

"Hope" is not evidence.

I didn't say that it was.. hope rests in the promises of God toward His creatures..

The "evidence of the unseen" is what, ecactly?

Of the Lord Jesus Christ.. we do not see Him physically although everything He says in His word is easily witnessed to in our lives. Things like sin, the heart of man.. the lust of the flesh, etc etc

That is why christian "evidence" is not looked upon favorably by the scientific method. It isn't a TRUE "evidence".

So what's your standard for what IS true.. ? Are you going to tell me that you believe in evolution based upon what the scientific world says..? as they say, it takes greater faith to believe in that than it does to believe what God says is true.

The "truth" that christians profess AS truth . . . doesn't make it so because they say it is. This "truth" must first be verified . . . and ancient claims are practically impossible to do that with.

That's right, truth isn't truth because YOU or I say that it is.. and again, the entire OT centers on the person of Christ.. story after story, type after type.. all foretold in countless ways before it ever came to pass..

Now, I will address "Christ's sacrifice" in light of my post. God set up a rule ONLY for him. "Requiring the death of something to pay for sins." There were VERY specific steps to accomplish this in the OT. They were unnecessary. A person who used this animal to "purge sins" [in reality] didn't do anything to recify the wrong, just killed an animal. What he DID do was express his sorrow for sin and ask that it be cleansed. The animal wasn't necessary.

All OT sacrifices are a picture of Christ.. how that ultimately sin would be dealt with through His precious shed blood..

Why it is said to have happened was to "point towards Christ's work on the cross". None of the OT steps for sin offering were done to Jesus. Even if they HAD, . . . what exactly did Jesus "give willingly"?

HE was the sin offering.. and He gave HIS LIFE for our sins.. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

Do you believe in evolution ? Is this where your faith lies ?

 

[ThunderTongue]

i think one of the biggest miracles around is the heart change a person who has experienced God will have. ive seen crack heads put down the pipe, and alcoholics stop drinking in one day.


that, to me, more than any other type of miracle is the most amazing. how God can change a heart in an instant

 

[Deavonreye]

It certainly separates us humans from the rest of creation.. and where do you suppose that this internal conviction comes from ?

There are other creatures that have a TYPE of knowing "right from wrong". Google "social species". That is where our "morality" comes from. Being social species, it became necessary to develope a system of "right and wrong" in order to benefit the whole.

Of the Lord Jesus Christ.. we do not see Him physically although everything He says in His word is easily witnessed to in our lives. Things like sin, the heart of man.. the lust of the flesh, etc etc

These things don't point to any specific deity.

So what's your standard for what IS true.. ? Are you going to tell me that you believe in evolution based upon what the scientific world says..? as they say, it takes greater faith to believe in that than it does to believe what God says is true.

I would disagree that it would "take more faith to believe the evolutionary theory than how biblical texts state 'the beginning' happened". One is based upon small changes over a long period of time. The other . . . has magic.

That's right, truth isn't truth because YOU or I say that it is.. and again, the entire OT centers on the person of Christ.. story after story, type after type.. all foretold in countless ways before it ever came to pass..

The OT does not center on Christ. What modern christianity DOES do [and has done for centuries] is take small segments of OT stories out of context because they SOUND messianic.

All OT sacrifices are a picture of Christ.. how that ultimately sin would be dealt with through His precious shed blood.. HE was the sin offering.. and He gave HIS LIFE for our sins.. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

His "life" wasn't given up. A physical body wasn't his natural state anyway. I don't see the sacrifice when he returns to heaven to be worshipped for all eternity.

 

[Alabaster]

The OT does not center on Christ. What modern christianity DOES do [and has done for centuries] is take small segments of OT stories out of context because they SOUND messianic.

Yeah, as if you know all about the inspired word of God!

The OT is all about Jesus.

His "life" wasn't given up. A physical body wasn't his natural state anyway. I don't see the sacrifice when he returns to heaven to be worshipped for all eternity.

Tell that to Jesus when you see Him and see the gaping holes in his wrists and feet.

He went through dire agony in your stead.

 

[Eventide]

Yeah, as if you know all about the inspired word of God!

The OT is all about Jesus.





Tell that to Jesus when you see Him and see the gaping holes in his wrists and feet.

He went through dire agony in your stead.

Amen Alabaster.. if he wants to place his faith in evolution then that's his prerogative.

 

[jasoncran]

There are other creatures that have a TYPE of knowing "right from wrong". Google "social species". That is where our "morality" comes from. Being social species, it became necessary to develope a system of "right and wrong" in order to benefit the whole.



These things don't point to any specific deity.



I would disagree that it would "take more faith to believe the evolutionary theory than how biblical texts state 'the beginning' happened". One is based upon small changes over a long period of time. The other . . . has magic.



The OT does not center on Christ. What modern christianity DOES do [and has done for centuries] is take small segments of OT stories out of context because they SOUND messianic.



His "life" wasn't given up. A physical body wasn't his natural state anyway. I don't see the sacrifice when he returns to heaven to be worshipped for all eternity.

hard science not evolutionary psychology, we dont have lucy, ardi, or h.neatherdalis or any other evolutionary link to show that is the case. we cant test the first protoculture.

did the car evolve from the model a? all cars have the same basic function as the model a.the engine or tranny and rear end has only been improved upon.

 

[Deavonreye]

Hey all, . . . I usually try not to overstep my bounds on your board and kinda did earlier. Though it is how I feel about the topic, it is something I should keep to myself. We see things differently.

 

[Deavonreye]

I will continue this thread as "the opposing viewpoint", since it is a "how do you know god is real" topic. As with ANY post I make, they are my thoughts. . . . . your mileage may vary.

Yeah, as if you know all about the inspired word of God!

The OT is all about Jesus.

There was a post about "people taking scripture out of context" and why it should never be done. "Messianic prophecy" does this. Lifting a small part out of a story, because it sounds similar, is rewriting a history to being something it wasn't. All this to say, . . . using it as evidence that "god is real" isn't compelling to the opposition.

Tell that to Jesus when you see Him and see the gaping holes in his wrists and feet.

He went through dire agony in your stead.

I understand that you believe what you have stated here. IMO, where it sounds good on the surface, other takes on it may also be as valid. As for the story of Jesus showing Thomas "his wounds", . . . if the account WAS an actual event [for the sake of argument], it would have been for Thomas's sake alone, and to prove to the disciples. These "wounds" could only be a "vision" of sorts, not a literal eternal scar on literal human hands attached to a literal human body. The human body [if it is truly like ours] MUST reside within a strictly controlled environment. A physical place where it would NEED to be replenished with food and water, have an ambient temperature to keep from frostbite or heatstroke, have ample oxygen present for the body mechanisms that use it, etc.... Heaven would [then] have had to undergo a change to it, unless it always had an earth like environment. . . but then that goes into other topics of "why would it need it for spirit being types?"

Again, these are just my own thoughts on why some arguments aren't compelling. If Jesus would like to personally come to me and show me my error [and please don't add a reply like "when you die, you will get to see him, but it will be too late for you" type of replies], then I may change my viewpoint

 

[Deavonreye]

Amen Alabaster.. if he wants to place his faith in evolution then that's his prerogative.

I don't "place my faith" in evolution. If another theory arises to trump it, and has more veracity to it, I'll gladly walk away from the evolutionary theory. VERACITY is the key word here. Compelling evidence [for me] trumps "faith", regardless of what that "faith" is in.

 

[Eventide]

I don't "place my faith" in evolution. If another theory arises to trump it, and has more veracity to it, I'll gladly walk away from the evolutionary theory. VERACITY is the key word here. Compelling evidence [for me] trumps "faith", regardless of what that "faith" is in.

Call it whatever you'd like, although you're no different than any other person who weighs evidence in their heart and in their mind and then trusts in 'it' to be correct so to speak.. and right now, evolution is what you trust to be correct.

That's fine of course.

What reason would you have to discuss topics within a Christian Forum which are based upon the scriptures being 'correct'.. and being God's testimony concerning His Son, toward Humanity...?

The only thing that will ever completely satisfy the intense demands of your heart and mind is the gospel of Jesus Christ. There it's completely laid out for us in God's testimony how there's a real and terrible problem of sin and disobedience and the way in which His only begotten Son reconciled the world back to Himself.

It's a simple story and yet infinitely glorious.. and it alone will satisfy the deepest needs of your heart and mind, if you're willing to listen and trust that it is truly.. God's testimony concerning His Son.

Otherwise, continue to search the endless wisdom of man and never truly know anything for certain.. because no man does.. but God knows all things and He has revealed all things to those who love Him, and believe that He is the Son of God, who loved us, and gave Himself for us.

 

[Deavonreye]

What reason would you have to discuss topics within a Christian Forum which are based upon the scriptures being 'correct'.. and being God's testimony concerning His Son, toward Humanity...?

Being that I once was a christian, I think it is important to tell the side of the story of those who deconverted, not due to "rebellion", but due to LOOKING at all of the information available and coming to a conclusion. I'm not ruling out the posibility of there being deities, just haven't seen credible evidence from those who promote it. And for a "how do you know god is real" thread, I believe it serves nothing good to have a thread full of "yes (wo)men". If evidence is sound, it should be able to stand. But, . . . see my first signature line.

The only thing that will ever completely satisfy the intense demands of your heart and mind is the gospel of Jesus Christ. There it's completely laid out for us in God's testimony how there's a real and terrible problem of sin and disobedience and the way in which His only begotten Son reconciled the world back to Himself.

It's a simple story and yet infinitely glorious.. and it alone will satisfy the deepest needs of your heart and mind, if you're willing to listen and trust that it is truly.. God's testimony concerning His Son.

Otherwise, continue to search the endless wisdom of man and never truly know anything for certain.. because no man does.. but God knows all things and He has revealed all things to those who love Him, and believe that He is the Son of God, who loved us, and gave Himself for us.

Where I understand that you firmly believe this [and have every right to], . . . having been IN the christian faith for over 30 years, being "okay with it" when I hadn't taken the time to do my own studies [in other words, letting people tell me what to believe AND how to believe it, thus relying solely on pastors and Sunday school teachers to feed me the bible and what they wanted to pull from scripture and how they wanted us to hear it], . . . when I began having problems with what I was seeing in differing viewpoints [on the web], and when [upon seeking help from church leadership about the problems, being told to read the bible and let it speak to me] I started to delve seriously into the bible, what I found didn't seem at all to be a "story of love" as I was led to believe. Even the story of "the death of Jesus".

This is just me being honest in a thread that asks what the OP asked. As I said, on the surface [and for the years I was a christian, weeping over my "sin" and how it was the cause of Jesus's death] it sounds like a good story. The bottom line, however [IMO] sullies it.

It could be that I just think differently than people who call this site "home". I don't mean any disrespect, but I think it is important that christians know "the other side". What I have said here is quite tame compared to what I have seen. I don't like seeing THAT level of derision because I know that christains ARE good people! I have christian friends and they are top notch. It is just that for some people, extraordinary claims really DO require extraordinary evidence, and for a thread like this one, I would have hoped that extraordinary evidence would have been given. If it happens, I'll gladly consider it.

 

[Elijah674]

Being that I once was a christian, I think it is important to tell the side of the story of those who deconverted, not due to "rebellion", but due to LOOKING at all of the information available and coming to a conclusion. I'm not ruling out the posibility of there being deities, just haven't seen credible evidence from those who promote it. And for a "how do you know god is real" thread, I believe it serves nothing good to have a thread full of "yes (wo)men". If evidence is sound, it should be able to stand. But, . . . see my first signature line.

Where I understand that you firmly believe this [and have every right to], . . . having been IN the christian faith for over 30 years, being "okay with it" when I hadn't taken the time to do my own studies [in other words, letting people tell me what to believe AND how to believe it, thus relying solely on pastors and Sunday school teachers to feed me the bible and what they wanted to pull from scripture and how they wanted us to hear it], . . . when I began having problems with what I was seeing in differing viewpoints [on the web], and when [upon seeking help from church leadership about the problems, being told to read the bible and let it speak to me] I started to delve seriously into the bible, what I found didn't seem at all to be a "story of love" as I was led to believe. Even the story of "the death of Jesus".

This is just me being honest in a thread that asks what the OP asked. As I said, on the surface [and for the years I was a christian, weeping over my "sin" and how it was the cause of Jesus's death] it sounds like a good story. The bottom line, however [IMO] sullies it.

It could be that I just think differently than people who call this site "home". I don't mean any disrespect, but I think it is important that christians know "the other side". What I have said here is quite tame compared to what I have seen. I don't like seeing THAT level of derision because I know that christains ARE good people! I have christian friends and they are top notch. It is just that for some people, extraordinary claims really DO require extraordinary evidence, and for a thread like this one, I would have hoped that extraordinary evidence would have been given. If it happens, I'll gladly consider it.

Have you never seen a changed life from a real son of thunder (James & John) that Christ documented to a REAL Born Again Christian??? I am talking personal! No game stuff! The satanic garbage cess/pool! (you name it?)

All of this stuff WAS GONE for 35 + years at an INSTANT! No running around! No drinking! No smoking! NO SWARING! (+ to ashamed to tell!) All that was cared about was the LOVE OF MONEY! And if you knew this person & run around with this person & then knew him for the next 35+ years, HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK THAT THIS CHANGE CAME ABOUT????????????? No evidence???

Hey, this guy IS NO YOUNG KID EITHER! I was telling a middle age (50) young man last week (non/christian as of yet) that if God allowed, that the devil would kill all of these ones in an instant! He hates Christ & His followers with a satanic passion! And we are reminded of this many times. A few months back while dressed for church I went out the back door (which was about 15 steps down) to feed the birds. My feet sliped out from under me & I fell on my back & went bump'pity' bump all of the way to the bottom. Not only was I not hurt, but my suit was not torn or dirty! Is this always the case?? NO! But in this case God told the devil, NO WAY!

Another, last week. My wife & I have some ground that we have in the country that we we plan to move to when God Leads that way?? It is wholey lanscaped. We go out there and walk over the 1 & 1/2 (almost) acre for relaxation & exercise. We have three vinyl good built chairs there. As we were setting which we had done many times, my chair with four legs ALL BROKE OFF at once, with a couple 'spears like' sticking up! and over backwards I went to the ground. I had a good headack for a few seconds & a few thoughts??? Anyhow, with a couple scratch's nothing was otherwise wrong. And you ask your questions??????? And I could on & on. Just a 35+ year quintessence of fate? Are you kidding! There is much much more that could be told, about 'satanic' wrecks, our home being robbed & me being shot [at] with the bible studies that were given to this person in jail. But perhaps this is to boring!;)

But ask yourself who it is that keeps you & yours alive? And you [post] that you were 'IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH FOR 30 YEARS'. Lovingly my poor ignorant friend, as 'i' read your posting I do not think that your [posted message] knows anything more than 'in' a membership exspirence?

--Elijah

 

[Deavonreye]

Have you never seen a changed life from a real son of thunder (James & John) that Christ documented to a REAL Born Again Christian??? I am talking personal! No game stuff! The satanic garbage cess/pool! (you name it?)

All of this stuff WAS GONE for 35 + years at an INSTANT! No running around! No drinking! No smoking! NO SWARING! (+ to ashamed to tell!) All that was cared about was the LOVE OF MONEY! And if you knew this person & run around with this person & then knew him for the next 35+ years, HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK THAT THIS CHANGE CAME ABOUT????????????? No evidence???

There wasn't any magic that took place here. A person changes . . . by stepping up to the plate and MAKING changes to his life. For some people, the fear of Hell is an overpowering motivator to "change". But it is a "change" due to fear alone. I'm not saying the person in question had fear as a motivator, but it isn't out of the question. Bottom line is STILL that the PERSON changes their life direction and the stimulator is irrelevant.

But ask yourself who it is that keeps you & yours alive? And you [post] that you were 'IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH FOR 30 YEARS'. Lovingly my poor ignorant friend, as 'i' read your posting I do not think that your [posted message] knows anything more than 'in' a membership exspirence?

--Elijah

Once again . . . . . the "you didn't believe correctly" statement. As for your question, my life is sustained because of body anatomy. My brain sends signals to my body to operate, . . . same as yours, . . . same as everyone elses. If you want to claim that "my days are counted by god before I was born", then you must conclude that babies aborted in the womb were meant to be. All this to say, the "god gives you life" argument is a fallacy.

Nothing you posted here is evidence that "god is real", as per the OP.

 

[Elijah674]

There wasn't any magic that took place here. A person changes . . . by stepping up to the plate and MAKING changes to his life. For some people, the fear of Hell is an overpowering motivator to "change". But it is a "change" due to fear alone. I'm not saying the person in question had fear as a motivator, but it isn't out of the question. Bottom line is STILL that the PERSON changes their life direction and the stimulator is irrelevant.

Once again . . . . . the "you didn't believe correctly" statement. As for your question, my life is sustained because of body anatomy. My brain sends signals to my body to operate, . . . same as yours, . . . same as everyone elses. If you want to claim that "my days are counted by god before I was born", then you must conclude that babies aborted in the womb were meant to be. All this to say, the "god gives you life" argument is a fallacy.

Nothing you posted here is evidence that "god is real", as per the OP.

OK: But you do not know what you are talking about if you think that mankind can change his own heart or even wants to??? Can you do so???

And fear is just one of the two ways that God can reach [YOU]. And it seems that you have yourself documented that God has tried the other way? Jude 1:22 & 23. And for now I have nothing more to say. (useless! or Vain for me! Titus 3:9-11)

But, we will see how God handles you?? If anyone can be saved (Changed) God will stop at NOTHING to get the job done, [IF] it can be done. So stick around & let us know how you are faring in a few weeks, under the bondage of satan ok?

And we will (my wife & I) be praying for you that God's WILL BE DONE.

Forum: See Isa. 5:4-9 for these 'two' Jude ways that God works. And remember that all that God REQUIRES is 100% FULL SURRENDER & then it is that the Born Again Heart will have fear cast aside!

And we are living in a serious Time! Matt. 24:21

--Elijah

 

[Deavonreye]

OK: But you do not know what you are talking about if you think that mankind can change his own heart or even wants to??? Can you do so???

People do it all the time. It doesn't take the fear of a god to change a life around. I have no god in my life, yet strive every day to be a good person. No, not everyone has this resolve, but that is beside the point.

all that God REQUIRES is 100% FULL SURRENDER

I have heard nothing from any deity telling me to "surrender fully". Words in a holy book . . . and a lot of people believing it true . . . does not make it automatically true. If he wants to visit me personally, then we'll talk.