How do You Know You are Saved

[dadof10]

Absolutely
You hit the nail on the head. That's what I was looking for.

I'm either forgiven or not. Right now, today, this moment for all sin.

For all sin you have committed in the past, or do you mean as soon as you commit sin you're, at that exact moment, forgiven?

 

[Rick W]

For all sin you have committed in the past, or do you mean as soon as you commit sin you're, at that exact moment, forgiven?

What do you think? Are you resurrected with Christ or not?

 

[dadof10]

For all sin you have committed in the past, or do you mean as soon as you commit sin you're, at that exact moment, forgiven?

What do you think? Are you resurrected with Christ or not?

Yes, at Baptism I was "resurrected with Christ", but I can lose that salvation through sin. That's the way it works, we slip, ask for forgiveness, are forgiven and "go and sin no more" (or at least attempt to). If it didn't work that way we would not have Scriptural admonitions as quoted above by Drew (Rom 2).

It seems as though you are saying you are forgiven for all sin. Past, present and future. Is this your position?

 

[Rick W]

It seems as though you are saying you are forgiven for all sin. Past, present and future. Is this your position?

yes

Were you baptized with water or the spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit? Or both?

As for me I was saved then I arranged for my water baptism because then I wanted to do that. Before I was saved I could care less about being baptized one way or another.

 

[dadof10]

It seems as though you are saying you are forgiven for all sin. Past, present and future. Is this your position?

yes

OK. Before we continue, I have been away for a while and notice the Catholic boards are closed indefinately and there are not too many Catholics posting lately. Maybe they are on vacation, maybe I missed something.

You are a mod, have distinctively Catholic topics been banned from the entire forum? Have Catholics been banned? If so, let me know and I'll go elswhere.

 

[Rick W]

If your reply won't lead to a debate between Catholics and non-Catholics then I personally have no problem.
You were kind enough to ask first though. I find that refreshing.

Say what you may and we'll try to keep things from going off on a tangent of Catholics versus non-Catholics.

 

[Rick W]

BTW,
Catholics have not been banned but for the sake of peace "Catholic topics" aren't to be posted.

 

[one_lost_coin]

It seems as though you are saying you are forgiven for all sin. Past, present and future. Is this your position?

yes

Were you baptized with water or the spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit? Or both?

As for me I was saved then I arranged for my water baptism because then I wanted to do that. Before I was saved I could care less about being baptized one way or another.

Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission. Baptism gives us access to the other sacraments. In Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit. "he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."-titus 3:5 nrsv

The answer to were you baptized...? When it is done in name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit through water can only be "both".
Your being drawn to Baptism was not an accident but a neccesity "Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - john 3:5 nrsv Praise God for so great a gift.

 

[Rick W]

Then if I died in an auto accident on the way to my prearranged baptism I wouldn't be saved?
Glad I took the bus. :-D Didn't own a car at that time.

 

[one_lost_coin]

Absolutely
You hit the nail on the head. That's what I was looking for.

I'm either forgiven or not. Right now, today, this moment for all sin. The old man is buried with Christ, the new man risen in His resurrection. If I'm not forgiven then I'm not the new man I supposed I was.
One must keep this in mind when reading other scripture, that I am indeed a new man. One cannot read other scripture as a prerequisite to dying with Him then sharing in His resurrection. That's putting the cart before the horse. For to do so means by my failure in some way I must be recreated all over again. I am a new creation or I'm not. And Christ died once and for all. I cannot crucify Him over and over again. The old man died and cannot live again. The old man is not resurrected over and over. The new man is born, made a new creation, once and for all.

Works-centered beliefs would have us bound to our failure rather than to Christ's success.

I know I'm a new creation for I knew well the old. The spirit opens one's eyes to the old condition in bared honesty and brutal clarity. I've denied the old self in who I am today, every day. I know I'm a new creation and by that simple fact I know I am saved.

He promised. And His promises are true. He's merciful and His mercy is eternal. He is faithful and His faithfulness is unwavering. And I am a new creation by who He is and in Him is my salvation, not by me.

Christ died for every sin everyone has, does and will commit. He also died for the sins of those who will never ask for His endless forgiving mercy and who refuse to accept it. God's Mercy is greater than our sin and He wants us to know His forgiveness is always there when we approach Him in the need and desire to be reconciled back to Him as it was to Peter when our Lord washed his feet to wash away his sins although he no longer needed to have his whole body bathed Jesus said to him, “One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, but is entirely clean... see John 13:5-15.

We continue to sin in this life and have been given assurance by the faithfullness of God that God will forgive us if we come to Him and ask. If we have to ask 70 times God will forgive us those 70 times and through His forgiveness we are reconciled back to Him and our neighbor. Everything we do affects both our relationship with God and our neighbor, both the things we do good and things we do bad.

We are given the Graces needed to day by day faithfully grow in virtue to faithfully live out the Christian life, to be restored back into relation with God and our neighbors when we fall down again and again and just like dadof10 posted above we must confess those sins to God and in true penitence of heart recieve that forgiveness and continue on. In that confession to God we can humbly see the truth of ourselves and the unfathomable Mercy of God.

Salvation is a lifelong process a moment by moment trusting in God's Mercy and Grace.

 

[one_lost_coin]

Then if I died in an auto accident on the way to my prearranged baptism I wouldn't be saved?
Glad I took the bus. :-D Didn't own a car at that time.

Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized.

A person that died on the way to baptism would be a catechumen unless that death occurred as an act of martyrdom which would place that person in the group of those who died for the faith.

God knows our hearts and knows that we truly desired to be Baptised into His life. He also know the difference between invinceable ignorance (which he won't hold us accountable for that which we had no way of knowing) and just plain refusing to know (for which we are accountable). He is the only one who truly knows it and we can all be grateful to have such a wise and fair judge.

I am not sure I understand the significance of "prearranged" I guess if you mean by it God is the arranger than that would be in line with a proper understanding of baptism.

 

[Drew]

We need to let Scripture tell us how "salvation" ios achieved and not impose our own systems on it.

And one way we impose our own systems is to assume that "salvation" (or its closely related partner "justification") are "one-time" events.

Paul certainly does not hold that view.

Paul describes salvation and justifcation in terms of both faith and works (although putting it this way is a little misleading, but I will have to let that go for the present).

Again, watch what people do (or perhaps more importantly do not do) with Romans 2.

Romans 2 could not be more clear - justification and the granting of eternal life at the future judgement will indeed be based on the works that one's life manifests.

And other teachings of Paul are equally clear - those who believe that Jesus is Lord are assured of salvation and justification. I have given a thumbnail proposal as to how this all works in an earlier post (and will not repeat).

But to those who think that "works" have no role in justification / salvation, please tell me how you reconcile that position with Romans 2:6-13.

And to those who think that faith in Christ does not assure ultimate justification / salvation, please tell me how you reconcile that position with Romans 10:6-9.

As always, we all need to examine the possibility that we are bringing systems to the text.

 

[Rick W]

I am not sure I understand the significance of "prearranged" I guess if you mean by it God is the arranger than that would be in line with a proper understanding of baptism.

No, God didn't arrange the baptism. I spoke with the pastor and arranged the time and date several months after being saved. My mentors disciplining my in the Word of God suggested it wouldn't be a bad idea to publicly announce my acceptance of Christ.

 

[one_lost_coin]

I am not sure I understand the significance of "prearranged" I guess if you mean by it God is the arranger than that would be in line with a proper understanding of baptism.

No, God didn't arrange the baptism. I spoke with the pastor and arranged the time and date several months after being saved. My mentors disciplining my in the Word of God suggested it wouldn't be a bad idea to publicly announce my acceptance of Christ.

At times I am getting really confused you will have to forgive me.

You or I or anyone else could not be baptised unless God had made baptism as a way for us. If what you mean is that you set the date as opposed to some spontaneous spur of the moment baptism ok I can see what you mean as difference in that way.

Also how do you figure you have not announced it publicly I know about it. I take it you really mean to your family or those close to you in some way.

 

[one_lost_coin]

...And to those who think that faith in Christ does not assure ultimate justification / salvation, please tell me how you reconcile that position with Romans 10:6-9.

I am not sure I have seen a faction that is denying faith in its role of grace working through love.

I might also humbly remind everyone there have been many Christians before us who have addressed these issues already and the Church has proclaimed some very truthful doctrines that don't have to be ignored and rejected and others than can be looked at to learn from there mistakes. There is no need to ignore the faithful brothers who came before us and preseved the faith some with there lives they have maintained the truth and handed it on to us faithfully. We don't have to reinvent the wheel in every generation. Christianity is a single community in and through time.

Even if we think we can free ourselves from systems/doctrines there is nothing on this thread and I literally mean nothing that has not already been thought through by someone else long before we were ever born inevitably all conversations of this type can be seen as belonging to some system even if we ourselves are not aware of which one, it is inevitable I think after 2000 years.

 

[Rick W]

one_lost_coin,
I was saved on the back porch one night at a place in the middle of nowhere near Clinton, Utah. I was 2200 miles from family and had just a couple friends that would attend the baptism. There were some others there as well that I didn't know. Regardless, following the advice of those mentoring me in scripture I made arrangements with the pastor of the church we were attending at the time for a water baptism. There's just nothing else I can tell you.

Drew,
All I can tell you is I was not seeking God when I was saved. But I can assure you I heard Him and could not ignore Him.
After that I looked up a Christian friend of mine and told him what happened. He knew I was looking for a place closer to work. I was single and he offered a spare bedroom at his home. I accepted and for the next 6 months I totally devoured the bible. Thereafter I met the fellow who led him to the Lord who had an experience much like what I went through. He tried to ignore the call but capitulated a couple weeks thereafter. Through him I met a Christian bishop who discipled him in scripture.
It was a glorious year! :wink:

 

[lovely]

I think we can know that what God says is true, but only He knows our hearts and has the final judgement. It's not anything to worry over if we fervently love Him and seek Him. It's a matter that is hidden to us really. The goats are surprised at their rejection because of all of their works, and the lambs are surprised that they have done works toward Christ at all. For me, I can be assured or doubt based on my emotions, because I'm human, but really I should simply believe God's Word on the matter.

With sincere faith, and by walking in the Spirit, we can obey the command mean of love. Love that sets all affection upon the Lord, and love that abounds from us to others...radiating love. This love is honest and in the light, and it is followed by washing the feet of the saints, practicing hospitality, caring for children and widows, giving to the poor, and so on all in the name of Jesus. Our belief in God, since we take Him at His Word, should also instill in us a Holy fear that makes us hate sin, pride, self-rightesousness, and all manner of evil...we should not want it in our lives.

God is also merciful to us, though, when we fail, when we lack knowledge. These things are part of being immature believers. As we learn about Jesus, and practice being like Him, by His grace we will mature past some of the fundamentals. He knows the work He will complete in us. We should study to show ourselves approved to Him (this includes the New Testament instruction in righteousness), love His precepts as David, repent when we stumble (because we are not lawless having the Spirit in us), and be willing to let God use us in any way. It's the lawless that will practice evil, even if their works appear good, and they are eventually given over to it, because they have not the Spirit in them, but are self-righteous.

Since I have been following Him, He has been transforming me into His image, and I can not do that myself, but He has given me the mind of Christ and the wisdom of the Spirit so that I may participate in following Him, and all of this is to bring me to maturity...to bear fruit or Him. This is an ongoing process.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Drew]

I am not sure I have seen a faction that is denying faith in its role of grace working through love.

Fair enough.

Even if we think we can free ourselves from systems/doctrines there is nothing on this thread and I literally mean nothing that has not already been thought through by someone else long before we were ever born.

Perhaps you are right here, but we still need to face the challenge that there is significant diversity among Christians as to what is the basis, or grounds, of salvation (and justification). And it is important to get the theology right. I will venture to speculate that there are those who believe that mere belief - simple intellectual assent to the proposition that Jesus died for their sins
- suffices for their ultimate salvation / justification. I have grave doubts about such a position.

And there are almost certainly those who believe that "moral self-effort" - doing "good works" without the energizing power of the Holy Spirit given when one place genuine faith in Jesus - is also sufficient for salvation and justification. I have grave doubts about that position too.

 

[one_lost_coin]

one_lost_coin,
I was saved on the back porch one night at a place in the middle of nowhere near Clinton, Utah. I was 2200 miles from family and had just a couple friends that would attend the baptism. There were some others there as well that I didn't know. Regardless, following the advice of those mentoring me in scripture I made arrangements with the pastor of the church we were attending at the time for a water baptism. There's just nothing else I can tell you.

Drew,
All I can tell you is I was not seeking God when I was saved. But I can assure you I heard Him and could not ignore Him.
After that I looked up a Christian friend of mine and told him what happened. He knew I was looking for a place closer to work. I was single and he offered a spare bedroom at his home. I accepted and for the next 6 months I totally devoured the bible. Thereafter I met the fellow who led him to the Lord who had an experience much like what I went through. He tried to ignore the call but capitulated a couple weeks thereafter. Through him I met a Christian bishop who discipled him in scripture, a fellow by the name of Dave Roberts sponsoring ICM (Intermountain Christian Ministries) in Salt Lake City. He also puts out a newsletter every month.
It was a glorious year! :wink:

Actually I can very much relate to what you are saying because I encountered God while driving down interstate 10 outside of mobile alabama and at that point I knew that there was a God and that he was real and I found that in His presence/perfect goodness I recognized that for the first time in my life how I was a sinner and wept uncontrolably. I can also see how God was working in my life long before than to even though I didn't believe Jesus was God. How he heard the prayers of my mother the conversations with others, through the life death and ressurection of Jesus Christ the Son of God long before my birth. I don't know why he revealed Himself in that way to me on that day but it changed my life forever.

He brings different people in different ways some have known God all their lives and cannot imagine a time when they did not know Him others it was very gradual and they cannot say it was this one specific moment that they became aware of the truth of God yet they believe and live a very deep faith.

Yet none of that changes anything I was saved in that Christ offered us salvation, I am being saved in that I daily have faith in God and trust in His Grace, and that if I percervere I will be saved and forever in the fullness of His presence never to weep or mourn or sin again but that time hasn't arrived for us our story is still being told and will not find its perfect ending unless we continue in His Grace.

 

[one_lost_coin]

I am not sure I have seen a faction that is denying faith in its role of grace working through love.

Fair enough.

[quote="one_lost_coin":44fce]Even if we think we can free ourselves from systems/doctrines there is nothing on this thread and I literally mean nothing that has not already been thought through by someone else long before we were ever born.

Perhaps you are right here, but we still need to face the challenge that there is significant diversity among Christians as to what is the basis, or grounds, of salvation (and justification). And it is important to get the theology right. I will venture to speculate that there are those who believe that mere belief - simple intellectual assent to the proposition that Jesus died for their sins
- suffices for their ultimate salvation / justification. I have grave doubts about such a position.

And there are almost certainly those who believe that "moral self-effort" - doing "good works" without the energizing power of the Holy Spirit given when one place genuine faith in Jesus - is also sufficient for salvation and justification. I have grave doubts about that position too.[/quote:44fce]

I can understand that and very much appreciate your words, thankyou for elaborating.