How do you think outsiders view us?

[Deborah13]

The difficulty that I have seen is that too often the debate becomes about winning points for one side (our own) and not learning from the debate. Too often the focus is on getting one up on the other person. Sounds prideful when I see it.

Yes, it can sound prideful and sometimes is I think, I feel it too. Other times it's emotions running high each so sincere in what they believe. But we need to be respectful and consider other peoples feelings.

 

[freespirit8]

Well we know better than to name call and be insulting. A debate thread is fine. This can get the synapses going But I agree to resort to insults is, well, not so christian.

 

[childeye]

So I guess in answer to my original question, Childeye, you and Dustoftheearth both feel that we look ok to outsiders? Not perfect, but at least ok enough?

I think we look nuts.

 

[jasoncran]

argumentive. I don't debate much on theology in church. I could and I have but ya know im learning that while that has its place but I find that I get prideful.

 

[Kaliani]

So it is that the bikers may not be hitting upon the Truth so there is no controversy. After all it benefits the lie for everyone to say I don't know what the Truth is even though that ends any will to debate.

OR they take for granted that the next forum member will perceive and understand the topic. Sometimes people here don't give their neighbour any credit whatsoever - they just dismiss them as too 'carnal' and depraved to understand their ultra-rarefied revelation.

 

[Deborah13]

I know it's on our moderators hearts to have peace and I'm really starting to believe that it is God making a very strong impression on them.

I think we need to shape up.

 

[Grazer]

I'm looking at doing some interviews with my atheist friends to look at this question. The harsh truth is; Christians are not known for their love or compassion. Words like judgemental, oppressive, bigoted, hypocritical are typical words that come to mind when people think of Christianity.....and that's before we get onto the subject that shall not be discussed.

To me, the biggest factor that's driving people away from Christ, are those who claim to follow him. Now this is generalizing on my part, I'm sure we all know those who are very Christ like, I met some who were and they helped me come to him, showed me his love. But I am sure of this; if I'd been an atheist when I came to this forum and others like it, I'd still be an atheist today.

 

[Grazer]

Was going to put this in a separate thread but I think its relevant to this discussion (its taken from an interview);

Instead of a debate, I asked people on both sides to think of the things they wish they better understood about the people who disagree with them – not the things they wanted to teach, but the things they wanted to learn. What resulted was some amazing conversation.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Yeah, I know of at least two people who aren't as interested in this site as they were at first because of the debates on here. Friends of mine. Nothing's wrong with debate in and of itself (in fact it can be a good thing), but I think most people come here for fellowship. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, I always find even friendly debates stressful. Same principal as you don't go to church to argue with people...y'know?

I guess one thing that makes for heatedness is that serious and controversial topics are often discussed.
I never understand why doctrinal debates are so heated, though. I imagine the attitudes displayed in those must have been what the pharisees' attitudes were like--arrogant, prideful, and quick to point fingers--then using religion as an excuse to be that way. They were the only people Jesus really got angry at.
Some people who technically are Christians prefer not to call themselves that because of Christians who act like pharisees--they don't want to be associated with that.

 

[WIP]

To me, the biggest factor that's driving people away from Christ, are those who claim to follow him.

I can fully understand this. I think we tend to forget that we have the perfect example as a reference in the Christ, Jesus. There are some that have retorted back to me when I make this statement with how Jesus treated the Pharisees and Scribes but I also think we have to remember that we are NOT Jesus. He had the authority and power to do what he did with them and us. We are told to deal with each other in love. Jesus said so and it was repeated in many of the letters throughout the NT.

I think when we begin to think too highly of ourselves that we view ourselves as somehow above reproach, we are fooling ourselves. We must still focus our sights on Jesus and Him alone.

 

[WIP]

Yeah, I know of at least two people who aren't as interested in this site as they were at first because of the debates on here. Friends of mine. Nothing's wrong with debate in and of itself (in fact it can be a good thing), but I think most people come here for fellowship. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, I always find even friendly debates stressful. Same principal as you don't go to church to argue with people...y'know?

I guess one thing that makes for heatedness is that serious and controversial topics are often discussed.
I never understand why doctrinal debates are so heated, though. I imagine the attitudes displayed in those must have been what the pharisees' attitudes were like--arrogant, prideful, and quick to point fingers--then using religion as an excuse to be that way. They were the only people Jesus really got angry at.
Some people who technically are Christians prefer not to call themselves that because of Christians who act like pharisees--they don't want to be associated with that.

I think when a person is reading through the threads here, it is prudent to also be aware of the forum being viewed. Here we are in the general talk forum and debating should be kept to a bare minimum in my opinion. If one is viewing threads in the Apologetic and Theology forum I think it should be expected that the forum will include debate and in some cases strong debate. I moderate that forum but I rarely get involved because I don't feel driven to debate that much. I do like to try and take something from the discussions though and grow in my own faith as a result.

 

[vocalyocal]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> You know in the short time I’ve been part of this forum I’ve been in and read quite a few threads now. I’ve been noticing the general demeanor and attitude of Christians here and thinking about our testimony to the world in general. To be honest, I’m concerned about our testimony when I see the amount of arguing just for the sake of arguing, and the amount of personal insults and derogatory comments that are so often hurled back and forth here even though the TOS specifically says this isn’t allowed. And once that gets started, it’s just so easy to get sucked into it and it turns into a vicious circle until a moderator has to step in and delete comments or completely close threads. In just a couple of months I’ve seen this happen over and over here.

I’m also a motorcycle rider and have actively been part of a motorcycle forum for several years now. It’s specific to Harley Davidson motorcycles, so there are quite a few of the 1%er types active on it. (For those unfamiliar, among hard core biker types the term 1% refers to the estimated 1% of all motorcycle riders that are hard core criminals. Those who are part of this 1% group, Hells Angles types, etc, wear this as a badge of honor.) So we’re talking about a forum frequented by some pretty “low down†people that most on here would probably turn their noses up at and disassociate from them. (Usually arrogantly citing all kinds of scripture to justify this.)

So how does this group of bikers act in comparison? In the many years I have been very active in that forum, I haven’t seen one argument. Not ONE! Sure, they’ve disagreed on some things, but it’s with an attitude that is more like “Well, I just never saw it that way†and it ends. When they insult each other or put each other down, it’s done in a spirit of joking and good fun and everyone laughs, including the recipient. In all my years there I have NEVER seen a moderator have to step in and give any warnings, delete any posts, and certainly never saw any threads closed due to the members’ bad behaviour.

I really think Christians in general need to take heed to this. And I’m not just talking about this forum. I see this behaviour in so many other Christian groups too. If I were asked to point out a group that exemplifies the attitudes of Jesus the best, I’m sadly afraid that the biker forum, despite all their shortcomings, does a better job of it than this forum does. How are we supposed to be a good testimony to the world, and to spread what we like to call “good news†in a way that makes others want to have what we have, when they look at us and what they see in comparison to the rest of the world is petty arguing, name calling, and hate mongering?

Just wanted to throw this out as food for thought from the first impressions of a newer member here.
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first of all there are no eternal stakes involved, whats to argue you either ride a Harley or some rice burner, not to many evil spirits involved in the conflict over what moter you have between your legs, its not a big issue for them

now when you start dealing with false doctrine and false teachings, baby they are all over it!

 

[childeye]

OR they take for granted that the next forum member will perceive and understand the topic. Sometimes people here don't give their neighbour any credit whatsoever - they just dismiss them as too 'carnal' and depraved to understand their ultra-rarefied revelation.

Yes, that is a very valid point. Perhaps those types which you describe very accurately come here because the sick need a doctor. Hence the cure for pride is humility. Now getting back to that barrier of Satan, I am reminded that Leviathan is called the king over the children of pride.

 

[childeye]

To me, the biggest factor that's driving people away from Christ, are those who claim to follow him.

Now that would make perfect sense with what I am saying about Satan's barrier. For Satan would send minions to pose as children of Light so as to confound the Truth and lead people astray.

 

[P31Woman]

Obadiah:

Fact is today, if a group of leather-clad bikers arrives at a Cracker Barrel parking lot someplace, they are just as likely (or even more likely?) to be a group of deacons' wives out for a weekend run, as they are Hell's Angels, or gang members.

(Two cents'.)

Exactly!

 

[P31Woman]

The difficulty that I have seen is that too often the debate becomes about winning points for one side (our own) and not learning from the debate. Too often the focus is on getting one up on the other person. Sounds prideful when I see it.

I don't tend to go too deep with debating non essential doctrines with Chrisitans/non-christians. I can many times just read those and learn from both sides.

When it comes to the essential doctrines of the faith that's a settled issue for me (Christians0 so I see heretics I have no desire to learn anything from and want to stomp out their false teachings. (I am talking when people desire to debate those issues/as in try to change my mind)

 

[P31Woman]

Now that would make perfect sense with what I am saying about Satan's barrier. For Satan would send minions to pose as children of Light so as to confound the Truth and lead people astray.

 

[P31Woman]

BTW, my first impression of probabaly the most humble and grounded Christians on this forum is they were the MOST judgmental people I've ever seen...............LOL I planned to leave before I became as judgmental as the rest of you............................Dear Deb sweet talked me back. Glad she did.


Then I got to know you all and could better understand the true meaning behind your words. I think it's a learning curve that exists on most online communities.

 

[Grazer]

I can fully understand this. I think we tend to forget that we have the perfect example as a reference in the Christ, Jesus. There are some that have retorted back to me when I make this statement with how Jesus treated the Pharisees and Scribes but I also think we have to remember that we are NOT Jesus. He had the authority and power to do what he did with them and us. We are told to deal with each other in love. Jesus said so and it was repeated in many of the letters throughout the NT.

I think when we begin to think too highly of ourselves that we view ourselves as somehow above reproach, we are fooling ourselves. We must still focus our sights on Jesus and Him alone.

I like what you've put there, you've summed it up quicker and more eloquently than I did lol (http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=50121)

As for the second bit, absolutely agree; I'm guilty of it too but we need to accept that others have their views and they are not defined by those views.

 

[Obadiah]

first of all there are no eternal stakes involved, whats to argue you either ride a Harley or some rice burner, not to many evil spirits involved in the conflict over what moter you have between your legs, its not a big issue for them

now when you start dealing with false doctrine and false teachings, baby they are all over it!

Actually I just used them as an example of a secular group that most of us would consider a bunch of worldly sinners, and how they behave compared to how we do. (Any secular group could be used as an example, although some fit my point better than others. These are just the ones from my background.) Also, I'm talking about the 1%ers, not the deacons wives or the casual people who just like to ride motorcycles. To the 1%ers, their issues go very far beyond a brand name, and to them are just as serious and important as ours are to us. I'm not saying their issues ARE actually as important or serious as ours are, I'm just talking about how I've seen them deal with things that in THEIR MINDS are just as serious, and the contrast of how we deal with things that we consider serious.

Even after reading all the rational so far, it still bothers me that most secular groups that I've had the opportunity to observe tend to treat each other more "Christ like" than we Christians treat each other. I'm just not really convinced yet that this is the way it should be. Like I said before, maybe I'm just way off base with this. Sorry if that's the case. It's just my observations and I was wondering why it's so, and if that's the way it should be according to the scriptures and the example Christ gave us. Seems by some of the other responses here, I'm not the only one who sees this either.