I hope that resurrection was to eternal life, and not to eternal damnation.
Man gets one lifetime to decide which it will be.
How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Man gets one lifetime to decide which it will be.
That's what everyone says. Bible says different:
It does not require temporal or geographical luck, everyone from Adam and Eve hears the gospel of Christ preached when their appointed deaths occur. Then is the “Judgment/trial” if Christ’s “Timeless sacrifice” “to bear the sins of many” includes them. To finite creatures living in spacetime this “is impossible, but not with God who dwells in eternity (Isa. 57:15); “for with God all things are possible” (Mk. 10:27 NKJ).
A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:
Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]
Purgatory is a Catholic corruption of the NT view of Hades. Moreover, instead of Hades for all the unsaved, they made it a place for Catholics!
I confess I had cognitive dissonance for years when it came to Hell. I believed the Reformers, who once were good Catholics. They discarded some Catholic beliefs, kept others and some they changed a little.
I recall thinking how wonderful my faith was, I'd insist God gave no second chances and still I would tell others how merciful He is. Talk about cognitive dissonance, THAT takes the cake.
Thankfully, the Scriptures opened my eyes. God really is a God of escapes from death:
Our God is the God of salvation; And to GOD the Lord belong escapes from death (Ps. 68:20 NKJ)
2424 Ἰησοῦς Iesous {ee-ay-sooce'}
Meaning: Jesus = "Yahweh is salvation"
As Jesus is Yahweh the Son, this text is saying
'Our God is the God of Salvation; And to Yahweh [Jesus] the Lord belong escapes from death'
A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:
Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]
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You're still espousing there view as long as you promote the idea that the dead can be saved. You can phrase it in whatever clever way you come up with, it's all just a word game. In death nobody hears the gospel. Father Abraham had made it very clear: if you don't have an ear to hear when you're alive, you don't when you're dead. If the gospel is about eternal life, why would God be searching for life among the dead?
Return, O Lord, deliver me!
Oh, save me for Your mercies’ sake!
For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:4-5)
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” (Lk. 16:27-31)
Everyone is dead until they are born again by obeying the gospel of Christ (1 Cor. 15:22).
Its not the living the gospel saves, its the dead:
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)
We are all dead at birth, physical death is a consequence, not a cause:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)
From the day Adam and Eve "died" eating from the tree in violation of God's command, and they realized their sinfulness, all humans have been dead. We died in Adam. The dead come alive only in Christ.
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In the fictional city of Judicia, the legal code was vast and intricate, with laws governing nearly every aspect of life. Despite this, not all citizens were well-versed in these regulations, particularly in the more obscure or arcane statutes.
One such individual was Thomas, a humble farmer who lived on the outskirts of the city. Known for his honest work and quiet life, Thomas had little reason to concern himself with the intricacies of Judicia’s legal system.
One day, while Thomas was repairing a fence on his land, he found a small, unusual plant growing near the edge of his property. Curious, and having heard from an old friend that the plant could be used to make a natural remedy for joint pain, he decided to cultivate it for personal use. Unbeknownst to Thomas, the plant was classified under the city’s strict anti-botanical regulation—a law put in place to curb illegal use of rare flora, though rarely enforced or even spoken of outside elite legal circles.
A neighbor, seeing the plant in Thomas's garden, reported it to the authorities out of suspicion and fear. The local law enforcers soon arrived and arrested Thomas, who was genuinely shocked when they told him he was in violation of "Statute 256: Unauthorized Cultivation of Restricted Species." The obscure law carried severe penalties, including potential life imprisonment, despite Thomas having no ill intent or awareness of the regulation.
When his case went to trial, the judge presiding over the court was a renowned figure in Judicia: Judge Magnus, known to many as "the Merciful." His followers believed him to be the embodiment of justice and compassion, interpreting his rulings as wise and loving, regardless of the outcomes. Yet, Judge Magnus was a firm adherent to the idea that the law was absolute, and ignorance of the law was no excuse. He believed that upholding the letter of the law, no matter the circumstances, was a demonstration of his love for the city's order and its people, ensuring the law’s purity and fairness.
During the trial, Thomas pleaded for leniency, explaining that he had no idea the plant was illegal and never intended to break the law. He had cultivated it purely for its rumored medicinal properties, hoping to ease his aching joints. His argument, however, did not sway Judge Magnus.
In his judgment, Judge Magnus declared, "The law of Judicia is clear, and it is my duty to uphold it. The ignorance of the defendant does not diminish the gravity of his offense. The cultivation of restricted flora endangers the balance we strive to maintain in our city. Therefore, in the name of justice and the protection of our people, I sentence Thomas to life imprisonment."
As the sentence was handed down, many in the courtroom wept for Thomas, whose crime was born not of malice but of misunderstanding. Yet, the followers of Judge Magnus praised the decision, interpreting it as an act of tough love—necessary to preserve the sanctity of the law. To them, the life sentence was not cruel but a testament to Judge Magnus’s commitment to justice, believing that even the harshest judgment was an expression of mercy in the grand design of the city’s moral and legal fabric.
For Thomas, however, the mercy and love spoken of by Judge Magnus's followers seemed distant and hollow as he was led away in chains, left to ponder how a seemingly innocuous act had brought about such a heavy and irrevocable consequence.
ChatGPT
Even an AI understands the cognitive dissonance in those declaring a Judge just and merciful, when he refuses the ignorant a second chance.
One such individual was Thomas, a humble farmer who lived on the outskirts of the city. Known for his honest work and quiet life, Thomas had little reason to concern himself with the intricacies of Judicia’s legal system.
One day, while Thomas was repairing a fence on his land, he found a small, unusual plant growing near the edge of his property. Curious, and having heard from an old friend that the plant could be used to make a natural remedy for joint pain, he decided to cultivate it for personal use. Unbeknownst to Thomas, the plant was classified under the city’s strict anti-botanical regulation—a law put in place to curb illegal use of rare flora, though rarely enforced or even spoken of outside elite legal circles.
A neighbor, seeing the plant in Thomas's garden, reported it to the authorities out of suspicion and fear. The local law enforcers soon arrived and arrested Thomas, who was genuinely shocked when they told him he was in violation of "Statute 256: Unauthorized Cultivation of Restricted Species." The obscure law carried severe penalties, including potential life imprisonment, despite Thomas having no ill intent or awareness of the regulation.
When his case went to trial, the judge presiding over the court was a renowned figure in Judicia: Judge Magnus, known to many as "the Merciful." His followers believed him to be the embodiment of justice and compassion, interpreting his rulings as wise and loving, regardless of the outcomes. Yet, Judge Magnus was a firm adherent to the idea that the law was absolute, and ignorance of the law was no excuse. He believed that upholding the letter of the law, no matter the circumstances, was a demonstration of his love for the city's order and its people, ensuring the law’s purity and fairness.
During the trial, Thomas pleaded for leniency, explaining that he had no idea the plant was illegal and never intended to break the law. He had cultivated it purely for its rumored medicinal properties, hoping to ease his aching joints. His argument, however, did not sway Judge Magnus.
In his judgment, Judge Magnus declared, "The law of Judicia is clear, and it is my duty to uphold it. The ignorance of the defendant does not diminish the gravity of his offense. The cultivation of restricted flora endangers the balance we strive to maintain in our city. Therefore, in the name of justice and the protection of our people, I sentence Thomas to life imprisonment."
As the sentence was handed down, many in the courtroom wept for Thomas, whose crime was born not of malice but of misunderstanding. Yet, the followers of Judge Magnus praised the decision, interpreting it as an act of tough love—necessary to preserve the sanctity of the law. To them, the life sentence was not cruel but a testament to Judge Magnus’s commitment to justice, believing that even the harshest judgment was an expression of mercy in the grand design of the city’s moral and legal fabric.
For Thomas, however, the mercy and love spoken of by Judge Magnus's followers seemed distant and hollow as he was led away in chains, left to ponder how a seemingly innocuous act had brought about such a heavy and irrevocable consequence.
ChatGPT
Even an AI understands the cognitive dissonance in those declaring a Judge just and merciful, when he refuses the ignorant a second chance.
Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News
Scriptural Evidence of Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus “God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death.” (Ps. 68:20) Christ alone is the door to salvation. But what about those who lived before His time, or in places where His message was...
endtimenews.net
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Great, now you’re obfuscating the definition of “death”! The verses I quoted speak of mortal death, you instead of responding subtly changed it into spiritual death without Christ, that’s the game you’re playing, isn’t it. Nice try, buster.
The division of living and dead is fiction. All in Adam are dead. Christ's words clealy apply to all spiritually dead, including those physically dead or alive, those in the graves and those in Christ's audience:
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)
I cannot put faith in a doctrine that accommodates continued sin.
Your doctrine is not for me.
Your futile argument is fiction, and it shows your disregard for life and the influence of gnosticism, aka. spirit good, matters bad. If so, what's the point for the Word to be materialized into flesh? The division of living and dead is God's grace for salvation, which only applies to those who're physically alive, one must be naturally born first before he can be spiritually born again. You can't be spiritually alive while physically dead.
Try reading what Christ said. Its an eye opener. Christ has the authority to make the dead alive equal with the Father. The Father did this so all would honor the Son even as they honor the Father. The Father makes the Dead alive, so does the Son, regardless where they are .... above ground or in the grave:
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)
I'm glad you don't believe the fiction you made up.
Nothing I said "accomondates continued sin".
To what do you refer ?
Really ?
If I truly believed that the gospel was going to be presented to me after I had wasted my life smoking cocaine, I would go find some more crack right now !
And cigarettes.
And booze.
And some loose lady.
All the things that God had gracefully allowed me to repent of, would be back on the table.
What Jesus are you talking about? The one I know is risen and seated at the right hand of the Father, he's not staying in the grave with the dead!
Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’ (Lk. 24:5-7)
I never suggested a person can willfully and in full knowledge despise Christ and get a second chance. I explained very carefully "ignorance" of God's truth must be present. I cited people born before Christ as examples.
You refute a strawman distortion because scripture doesn't matter to your beliefs. If it did, you would discuss the scripture instead of ignoring it.
This Jesus:
Read what Christ said. Its an eye opener. Christ has the authority to make the dead alive equal with the Father. The Father did this so all would honor the Son even as they honor the Father. Just as the Father makes the Dead alive, brings down into hell and raises up, so does the Son, regardless where the Dead are .... above ground or in the grave, those who hear (=obey) will live:
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)
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Boom. This belief looks outta nowhere. It seems like something a gnostic would teach. This "2nd chance after death" teaching smells of contraBible teaching.
This belief, if believed as fact, will result in a quantity of people throwing their 1st life away on a pretty unproven hunch and going into the lake of fire.
The belief Alfred is ""peddling"" is unorthodox. Hebrews 13:9 . Be a Berean and be very wary of Alfred's new, magical-thinking idea.
Hopeful is just showing you the logical conclusions of your belief. Perhaps you are ignoring it because logic does not matter to you? Hmm.
What does this mean?
equal in what sense?
Did what?
Yup, like in 2 Kings 13:21. Just as. Pay attention to the "Just As".
What does hell refer to in this context?
No matter where in the universe we are we can still believe, repent, be saved.
Huh?? Are these Bible verses or what you think you have gotten from verses?
Yup. To whom He will. But you have no evidence, at least that Ive seen, that this specifically backs P-M S. It says AS the Father raises the dead. Not that HE DOES.
Besides, aren't all humans resurrected then cast into the lake of fire or Heaven based on their choice? (God vs sin) If that is so, then the verse refers to THAT not the "strange teaching".
This verse is backup for the Trinity and displaying God's Power.
Yep. Evidence for the Trinity Truth. We die and thats it. We get judged. These verses back the orthodox view, the true view. Not the "oh you can throw your 1st chance away" view.
If unintentional sin somehow warrants a 2nd chance, should not willful sin with the intent to repent later, too? Even in this life some people intend to "repent later on". Few, if any, do, I think.
So someone can throw away their 1st chance away , beliving your belief, but then genuinely repent to God on their 2nd, because they believe their 2nd chance is their last??
Humans like sin. Humans like justify and excuse sin. It's logical that people would buy your belief due to such.
All your belief will really do is result in humans maximizing this one chance they have for sin, vainly hoping theyll get a 2nd chance. I don't see there being more benefit to your belief than cost.
God is Perfect, so do you not think that if a belief is from the Bible, that more good will come from believing and applying that belief than bad??
And how does your 2nd chance teaching honor Jesus when it will get people to sin a bunch in this life and then repent in their alleged 2nd chance?
Your position seems self defeating.
Spiritual death is also death, too. The person is being saved if they hear and believe.
Where is the Bible saying that the death and life there is physical? We need to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Its only appointed men to die ONCE and then JUDGMENT. No 2nd chance. Can one die physically twice????
Those who hear. What does "hear" mean? In what sense is it being used? What is the Greek for that word and what is it be used for in Greek?
Resurrection.
Again, where is the backup for 2nd chance, not simply this?
Yup.
See above. Not backup for 2nd chance. Who is right and why.
None of these matters when you're redefining words, specifically, conflating mortal death with spiritual death. Unlike most people who just mindlessly react in their reply, I recognize your trick when I see one, and I expose it.
