How few will be saved?

[Sparkey]

I for one don't think He was really telling us to cut off our sinful hands and pluck out our sinful eyes, and apparently 99.99% of Christians don't either.

I'm part of the IVORY soap Christians then. Yeah. We are to literally cut off our sinful hands and we are to literally pluck out our sinful eyes. Do not mistake this. Just because I can rightly call a Prophet an 'EYE' does not mean that I can not toss Him. Given the authority of the Holy Spirit, even a Prophet can be cut and tossed. There is no room in the body of Christ for false prophets. None. It's just not the time for that is all. No big.

But then I take that command to prophecy to the dead bones literally too. You've heard of the valley of dry bones that prophets of old speak of? What were they told to do? They were told to do what Paul says we all should do. Prophecy (it's better than tongues). Speak the word of God boldly and with great confidence. Speak by revelation, by admonishment, by exhortation, speak by way of special knowledge... But speak! Seek it, chase it down. God is ready and willing. Am I?

I hope to be.

 

[Runner]

I'm part of the IVORY soap Christians then. Yeah. We are to literally cut off our sinful hands and we are to literally pluck out our sinful eyes. Do not mistake this.

Super! Describe your prosthetics - I'm fascinated.

 

[Sparkey]

Super! Describe your prosthetics - I'm fascinated.

Or, in alternative, you could just let your working eyes read what I actually said.

If you want to engage in a battle of wits, be warned. I'm only ½ there.

 

[Christ_empowered]

The Barna survey was of American Christians. We're a largely post-Christian nation, so...yeah. I imagine that if you surveyed African Christians, South American Christians, etc., their numbers would be better.

Anyway, I do think its sort of frightening. Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you. Ouch. Wheat and the tares, etc.

I'm hoping I'm going to make it--run the race, fight the good fight, etc. Interesting thought...when I was at Teen challenge, they told us that some people take the good stuff and run. I guess you see it in extreme at a place like that...ex-junkies get dried out, cleaned up, employed, they're outta there...and out of the faith. But..

I think that happens, in some degree, to a lot of Christians. That's why I try to watch myself, now and then...its all too easy to think I'm done, I can do whatever now, blah blah blah, to find a form of Christianity that accomodates my lifestyle and doesn't demand a whole lot, etc. Then again...Christianity isn't supposed to be constant punishment, either.

Ramble ramble...I don't think any of us can say for sure. And when I think about TULIP and such, it makes me wonder: is it that many fall away, or that (many are called and) few are chosen?

 

[Jesus Martyr]

I call him LORD in faith. And I recently have found myself apologizing even when I do that. Because I know what it means to love Him and to love Him more than my own life -- but my stupid flesh?

When I look back to figure this out and ponder with some reflection what I notice is that the apology that is now coming from me like a little tiny reminder string tied to the word LORD, started when I was praying about and wanting to realize the promise found in Hosea about ISHI and BAALI. You know that one?

He promises to betroth us. Even to betroth us in righteousness! That's worth a think or two, now isn't it? We don't have to do it. He will.

I call him LORD in faith. And I recently have found myself apologizing even when I do that. Because I know what it means to love Him and to love Him more than my own life -- but my stupid flesh?

When I look back to figure this out and ponder with some reflection what I notice is that the apology that is now coming from me like a little tiny reminder string tied to the word LORD, started when I was praying about and wanting to realize the promise found in Hosea about ISHI and BAALI. You know that one?

He promises to betroth us. Even to betroth us in righteousness! That's worth a think or two, now isn't it? We don't have to do it. He will.

My most favorite part of the Gospel! The most significant part too... one that so many "put off" into the future. I hope no one here does!

(Hos 2:16) And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; (HUSBAND) and shalt call me no more Baali.
(Hos 2:19) And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
(Hos 2:20) I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
(Isa 54:5) For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
(Jer 3:14) Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
(Jer 31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

.....................Fulfilled!
(Joh 3:29) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

(2Co 11:2) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

(Rev 3:14) ... These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

(Rom 8:22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (BIRTH PANGS)

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rom 7:4) ...be married...to him who is raised from the dead...

(Rev 19:7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(Rev 19:8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

(Rev 19:9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

(Joh 16:21) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Rev 12:1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(Rev 12:2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

Of course not everybody thinks NOW is the Time to Marry Jesus and bring forth 'Christ in the flesh", so they are barren and without the Spirit;

(Luk 14:16) Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
(Luk 14:17) And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
(Luk 14:18) And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
(Luk 14:19) And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
(Luk 14:20) And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
(Luk 14:21) So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
(Luk 14:22) And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
(Luk 14:23) And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
(Luk 14:24) For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
(Rev 19:9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Have you Married Christ yet? Or have you been deceived and still put it off for whatever reason?

(Mat 25:10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(Mat 25:11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(Mat 25:12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

(Luk 10:19)Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

THIS is what that means. (if you want to call it "literal, I'm good with that hehe)

(Luk 10:20)Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

(2Ti 4:17) Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

(Psa 91:12) They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(Psa 91:13) Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
(Isa 27:1) In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
(Psa 74:13) Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
(Psa 58:3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
(Psa 58:4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

 

[Runner]

Or, in alternative, you could just let your working eyes read what I actually said. If you want to engage in a battle of wits, be warned. I'm only 1/2 there.

Ah-ha, you edited what you had said after I had responded! But when we look at what Jesus actually said in the context in which he said it, it leaves little room for anything other than taking it literally - or as hyperbole. If we're free to decide that "eye" means "false prophet" or whatever, then all bets are off. I could say it meant almost anything, whereas Jesus was clearly talking about the body.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matthew 5:27-29 (NIV).​

Does this reasonably sound as though it is talking about false prophets? Even if it could be extended by analogy to false prophets, it is first and foremost talking about your right hand and your right eye. Perhaps you're joking and I'm taking it too seriously, but the ability of supposed literalists to tap-dance away from inconvenient verses is a source of constant amusement (if that's the word) to me.

I can hardly wait for someone to explain to me, in 5,000 words replete with 85 footnotes, what these verses are really talking about (i.e., not at all what they appear to be talking about), what the ancient Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic terms really meant (i.e., not at all what 75 different Bible translations have decided they mean), yada yada.

 

[Runner]

(Luk 10:19)Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

THIS is what that means. (if you want to call it "literal, I'm good with that hehe)

Go for it! I'll stand by with the anti-venom, just in case.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm hoping I'm going to make it--run the race, fight the good fight, etc.

But CE, I thought you knew we were commanded by Paul to run that race with the idea that we will finish. That's the essence of it in a nutshell. That's something more than pie-in-the sky. If we are commanded, then God is responsible. But we know that, right? How can we become that completed product any other way? Here, let me fetch your quoted Scripture right away and check if my understanding is correct because I'd hate to make a mistake in such a critical area... one moment... fetching....

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith (2 Tim 4:7 some uncopyrighted version)

That was close. That teaches me to let Mr. Google assist in my Holy Spirit search... It was close, but no cigar! One more moment... fetching... this time it's gonna be the PAUL teaching to the Corinthians, not the praises to good ol' Timothy... or I'm giving up...

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

That's the one. WE are told to run, "that we may obtain," and I am here to say that every single Olympic competitor is taught to visualize the victory. This is so basic, we don't even need to imagine any other possibility like, "Go out there guys! Expect to come in 3rd!"

What idiot would keep a couch around like that?!? "Like you may obtain!"

You are NOT being poured out like a drink offering. It's possible that I am. I'm not sure. If I'm here next year, then no. But if not, remember what I said, my friend. Run to WIN! And this means run with the expectation to win. Or, in alternative, just do a word study on "great and many witnesses" or any other such thing. I'm not O.S.A.S. but I think they have it righter than many or even most - it's about trust, not about us -- and the burden is so freaking heavy that it's impossible, make no mistake -- Jesus was the ONLY FLESH that could bear that burden, but our portion? That's better than you seem to know. He wasn't lying when he said it was light. His burden is light. And the yoke itself is hand rubbed with oil so there no need for nurses to come around and check for skin reactions... None! So don't get your your torches and pitchforks but we do have many, many GREAT witnesses to the faithfulness of our KING!

We are to run with the idea of winning (actually crossing the finish line --- and since we have already counted the cost, and since we are NOT building on sand but upon the ROCK of SALVATION HIMSELF?!? and getting crowns (not mere medals) so that we have something to toss as we adore HIM? Well now we're talking. And as far as talking, ask yourself, Is that Sparrow dude saying something that the Apostles did not teach? Is he saying something that could not be found in the mouth of Jesus himself? Know that Jesus said that he spoke each and every word that was given to him from his Father. We have GREAT AUTHORITY. Let me quiet myself as that sinks in.

 

[Sparkey]

Ah-ha, you edited what you had said after I had responded!

Or you responded as I edited? Have you no grace, or have you no insight?

If we're free to decide that "eye" means "false prophet" or whatever, then all bets are off. I could say it meant almost anything, whereas Jesus was clearly talking about the body.

Oh, I see. It's the latter. No insight. That's okay. Peter talks about the salve for the blind in 2 Peter chapter 1. Read it all. It's guaranteed.

Jesus was talking about HIS body. That's all.

the ability of supposed literalists to tap-dance away from inconvenient verses is a source of constant amusement (if that's the word) to me.

Would vexation be a better word maybe? I do understand but must insist that with the Holy Spirit OIL being poured out the itch and vexation of those things is better than Ivory Soap and its supposed 99.99% purity.

Are you certain you chose that statistic well? Can you quote your peer-reviewed source for your stat? Two can play that game, you know. Did I told you I'm just ½ there? Okay, now it's ¼ there. But there's no such thing as a ¼-wit, you've heard of a ½-wit? Help me, I'm shrinking! I assume you were asleep in Hermeneutics class.



EDIT (at 28 minute mark): Kindly let me try again, please.

REVISED STATEMENT: The literal aspect of what Jesus said can be understood only if we also understand that He may have been speaking prophetically to a very select audience, those with ears to hear.​

 

[Runner]

Or your responded as I edited? Have you no grace, or have you no insight?

Perhaps we can make this a comedy routine, along the lines of "Who's on first?" OK, you edited at precisely the moment I responded, and we are both absolved by grace. Or something.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Go for it! I'll stand by with the anti-venom, just in case.[/QUOTE

You won't need to if you read the rest of the post that shows what that really "means"...

 

[Sparkey]

Who's on first?

Runner, I can tell that you're a very likable sort. And there is more to you than what meets the eye. Okay, I'm back to the full ½-wit mark, thank you.

Let's look at another gospel. Mark shows us the Conclusion that Jesus said, "Have salt among yourselves," He just got done telling us not to cause others to stumble (or not to be the cause of others sinning) and he was literally saying that going into heaven one-handed was better than going to hell whole.

He concludes with "have salt among yourselves." He was talking about stumbling or sinning and causing others to do so. He said it's better to have a millstone around your neck and to be tossed yourself. It's better to enter without an eye. Then he says, "Have salt among yourselves..." and I am thinking that your last comment, about GRACE is what He meant.

 

[Runner]

Oh, I see. It's the latter. No insight. That's okay. Peter talks about the salve for the blind in 2 Peter chapter 1. Read it all. It's guaranteed.

Jesus was talking about HIS body. That's all.

You appear to be editing your posts faster than doddering old Runner can keep up with. However, I can now see that I do indeed lack insight and must have indeed slept through hermeneutics class. I will confess to having read 2 Peter 1 - and not for the first time, believe it or not - and failed to see that it has any relevance to what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:27-29. Silly me, it certainly sounds to me like Jesus was talking about YOUR eye and YOUR hand and not HIS eye or HIS hand. The message of Matthew 5:27-29 really doesn't sound to un-insightful me like a prophetic utterance aimed at a select audience with ears to hear; it sounds like the most straightforward of utterances aimed at anyone with even the most minimal level of understanding. So what Jesus was really saying - probably in an aside that didn't make it into Matthew 5 - was something along the lines of "All this stuff about gouging out your eyes and cutting off your hands is heavy and mysterious stuff, ladies and gentlemen, but it will make sense when 2 Peter gets written 50 years from now." Am I on the right track at last? Can we just cut to the chase and have you explain the entire New Testament to me? Just kidding, Sparrowhawke - I enjoy your posts and take no offense at anything you've said, but we clearly have very different perspectives on these issues.

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, keep your personal and disparaging remarks to yourself. This is a warning. I am in the habit of editing and that's all that is. It is not me being an "artful dodger" and you saying, "You appear" will NOT spare you.

Yes, there is a spiritual resolution found in Peter and given for "blindness" and yes you caught that well.

You're right about the rest of it and I too enjoy your posting. But know that I am flesh. I can't change my need for perfection and my habit is to get it down quick then edit after. It's nothing done on purpose and it's done on every single post that I make. You're first impression about the "Who's on first" game is the right one.

 

[Runner]

Runner, I can tell that you're a very likable sort. And there is more to you than what meets the eye. Okay, I'm back to the full ½-wit mark, thank you.

Another post that crossed in the mail with mine!!! We really have to stop meeting like this. I will give more thought to what you're saying when I'm less tired.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ah-ha, you edited what you had said after I had responded! But when we look at what Jesus actually said in the context in which he said it, it leaves little room for anything other than taking it literally - or as hyperbole. If we're free to decide that "eye" means "false prophet" or whatever, then all bets are off. I could say it meant almost anything, whereas Jesus was clearly talking about the body.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matthew 5:27-29 (NIV).​

Does this reasonably sound as though it is talking about false prophets? Even if it could be extended by analogy to false prophets, it is first and foremost talking about your right hand and your right eye. Perhaps you're joking and I'm taking it too seriously, but the ability of supposed literalists to tap-dance away from inconvenient verses is a source of constant amusement (if that's the word) to me.

I can hardly wait for someone to explain to me, in 5,000 words replete with 85 footnotes, what these verses are really talking about (i.e., not at all what they appear to be talking about), what the ancient Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic terms really meant (i.e., not at all what 75 different Bible translations have decided they mean), yada yada.

First, the Holy Spirit expounding on scripture and context is far more important than the actual exact Greek and Hebrew. We also don't need to complicate things. Jesus making a comparison to being better to loose the part that offends, than to have it cast in the Valley of Hinnom, (However you spell that) which was well known to the people of the time.

I am not sure what verses you consider inconvenient though, all scripture is for reproof and doctrine, not one of them designed to be inconvenient.

Mike.

 

[Runner]

Okay, keep your personal and disparaging remarks to yourself. This is a warning. I am in the habit of editing and that's all that is. It is not me being an "artful dodger" and you saying, "You appear" will NOT spare you.

Yes, there is a spiritual resolution found in Peter and given for "blindness" and yes you caught that well.

Now see, that's just how much insight I lack: I would have thought that saying that I either lacked grace or insight and must have slept through hermeneutics class might have fallen under the heading of "personal and disparaging remarks" - but I have so little faith in my feeble abilities that I decided I was probably mistaken. I do find it just a bit odd to keep editing a post that has been replied to three times already - but, as you say, this is your habit and you apparently enjoy it. I will indeed consider myself duly warned of whatever it is you are duly warning me. Perhaps we can suggest a Modern English Version of Matthew 5:27-29 along the lines of, "If your keyboard causes you to sin, turn it off."

 

[Sparkey]

Greetings, Brother Mike! Welcome!

Okay: Instant recap (from the bird-brained one)
He said 99.99% pure and I wanted to work in my Ivory Soap thing 'cause I think I'm clever.
I said, I'm one of those (meaning fundamentalist or literalist) and tried *unsuccessfully* to explain that there was a certain aspect to what Jesus said about eyes and hands and feet and gouging and all that -- but it is only given to a very select audience, those with ears to hear. But could I just say that and keep my mouth shut? Not after having just congratulated myself on the old IVORY SOAP idea. So I was Mr. Pride, before the fall...

And then He rightly pointed to a familiar prosthetic argument... but by then, I'm hooked and I'm trying to justify myself...
It could have gone downhill from there, but then he said something else -- about me editing and I saw what was happening -- but by then I'm am being tickled because the Holy Spirit also mentions about blindness and sometimes (almost always) I type before I have the needed time (like a day or two) to compose things right.

Believe it or not, I wish (and am grateful at the same time) we had longer to edit things.

But the end of it all is that we're finding peace, but I'm betting that's just because Runner is a prayerful sort and that too is not really His fault any more than it's mine. I blame JESUS.

 

[Sparkey]

Runner Okay, I take that lie back too. You have insight. And it's okay if you live in flesh too. We all do. Just ask Brother Mike. He'll be back to see what I just finished writing (about your and my 'discussion' so-called) as our last messages crossed in the mail again.

Tired indeed. Haruumph! Gonna sleep indeed.... I'm asking your Father in Heaven to provide the Rest and the Refreshing that we all need. We can all sleep later, after we die. *it's a joke*

It's been a rough start but Runner; it's good to meet you. First impressions are a hmmm... they are a... well, they are not always reliable, are they? Thank you for your grace, I like undeserved favor and will not forget readily! I will not.

BTW --> READ AGAIN: The comment about lacking insight and/or grace was a QUESTION and you already know I am a literalist. Why do you insist it was a statement? This is (or should readily be seen as rhetorical). Sometimes (most of the times) I can't help myself. I really do rely on Grace in you. You've shown evidence that you have it. I'm your friend. I already know this. I was acting on the SECOND WITNESS to your readiness to falsely disparage me according to what you call appearance. That's why you got the warning. I'm glad you heard it. It won't come again.