How free is our will?

[Benoni]

What passage, not one passage you posted supported man has a freewill towards salvation; all you have is your assumption and bias and more spin.

No one comes to the Father unless the Father draw/drags him; there is no freewill when you are being dragged.

You sure do post a lot of nothing that never addresses freewill just assumption. HOGWASH not one verse....

That you can even read the passages presented and say what you have in this post lets us see exactly how oblivious you really are, b.

 

[follower of Christ]

What passage, not one passage you posted supported man has a freewill towards salvation; all you have is your assumption and bias and more spin.

PUHlease.
Youve been refuted...that you cant accept or admit that fact is inconsequential.
READERS SEE the evidence >>> HERE

No one comes to the Father unless the Father draw/drags him; there is no freewill when you are being dragged.

Uh....yeah...no one comes unless God draws...we know this already so why do you keep saying it like we all havent read it ten thousand times before and know it at this point ?
Ive known that fact since 1985...and you ?

God drawing a man DOESNT make any statement about the mans WILL to reject Him and Ive already presented PROOF that man CAN reject God and salvation.

 

[follower of Christ]

Again...


The 'free will' offering
The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...

 

[Benoni]

Great reference material but please explain to me how the freewill offering has anything to do with salvation? The Freewill offering was part of the feast in the OT but has nothing to do with anyones salvation.

John 6:44 No man and I will raise him up at the last day.

On the other hand no one can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk)drag him: There is no choice in being drawn or dragged; it speaks totally to the contray. If I was tied to a horse and it drew me/dragged me I would have no options but to be dragged/ no freewill or choice in this acion.

This verse is from God's Word; no spin; but a direct quote.

You can study and know Greek better then any scholar but if you refuse to believe the words that are written then all that study is in vain. I understand this is something you wish to disprove of; how about believing God's Word for once instead of what you wish it said.

Again...


The 'free will' offering
The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..
[quote:1471zibe]Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...[/quote:1471zibe]

 

[follower of Christ]

Great reference material but please explain to me how the freewill offering has anything to do with salvation?

Apparently you didnt bother to READ the post...as if that is any big surprise.
I'll wait till you DO actually read and and understand the point.
When you do then you'll figure out that the freewill offering isnt relevant to the point.

The Freewill offering was part of the feast in the OT but has nothing to do with anyones salvation.

Firstly READ a persons post...

On the other hand no one can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk)drag him: There is no choice in being drawn or dragged; it speaks totally to the contray. If I was tied to a horse and it drew me/dragged me I would have no options but to be dragged/ no freewill or choice in this acion.

Sorry but Ive already proven that man CAN reject God and salvation


DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

This verse is from God's Word; no spin; but a direct quot

The above passages are direct quotes.

You can study and know Greek better then any scholar but if you refuse to believe the words that are written then all that study is in vain. I understand this is something you wish to disprove of; how about believing God's Word for once instead of what you wish it said.

I believe Gods word. I just dont buy into your distortion of it.

 

[Benoni]

God drawing a man DOESNT make any statement about the mans WILL to reject Him and Ive already presented PROOF that man CAN reject God and salvation.

If God draws someone; where have you proven once this has happend man can resist that drawing?

Yes carnal man rejects God. That is his nature. Carnal man has a freewill to sin we both agree; where we do not agree is carnal man does not have a freewill towards salvation; God must quicken him first (Eph.2), draw Him. Salvation comes by God, not mans will or your religious word freewill.

 

[Benoni]

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

Again these verse are not speaking about salvation when God draws some one I am speaking about the false doctrine of man having a freewill or choice to serve God. Men reject God especially if they religious, carnal. How many different religions out there who say they are christians but do not know him. Oh sure they may walk the walk, act the act. But if God draws someone there is no turning back. Great example was the Paul who God knocked him off his horse and blinded him; there was no turning back once God has truly apprehended Paul.

 

[follower of Christ]

God drawing a man DOESNT make any statement about the mans WILL to reject Him and Ive already presented PROOF that man CAN reject God and salvation.

If God draws someone; where have you proven once this has happend man can resist that drawing?

Yes carnal man rejects God. That is his nature. Carnal man has a freewill to sin we both agree; where we do not agree is carnal man does not have a freewill towards salvation; God must quicken him first (Eph.2), draw Him. Salvation comes by God, not mans will or your religious word freewill.

Utterly amazing.
You have the nerve to sit here pretending like WE cant see the truth in scriptures that you pervert, and all the while YOU cant even see the obvious....


DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Again these verse are not speaking about salvation when God draws some one

PUHlease.
There is ONE drawing and ONE salvation...please dont make yourself look foolish here again, benoni.

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

I am speaking about the false doctrine of man having a freewill or choice to serve God.

I'll ask you again....
DOES GOD ORDAIN IT WHEN A MAN RAPES A CHILD ???

You keep rambling on about man supposedly not having free will to choose but you cant seem to take a stand for your fallacy when asked direct questions regarding it.

Men reject God especially if they religious, carnal.

Huh.
See because you said elsewhere that the passages about rejecting God were about believers...are you retracting that assertion now and saying that it is UNbelievers who can reject God ?


-snipped-

But if God draws someone there is no turning back.

Sorry but the scriptures say you are wrong.

Great example was the Paul who God knocked him off his horse and blinded him; there was no turning back once God has truly apprehended Paul.

Im sorry, where again does it SAY that Paul had no choice ?
God forknew that Paul, given the opportunity, WOULD come to repentance. Simple as that.

 

[mondar]

How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

We have the total free will to choose any path of sin we desire.

 

[follower of Christ]

How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

We have the total free will to choose any path of sin we desire.

well, we dont have total free will. A man cant teleport to heaven and kill God.
We can choose within the parameters we have been given. Carnal man mostly decides to choose evil and to make himself a slave to evil.

 

[mondar]

Carnal man mostly decides to choose evil and to make himself a slave to evil.

"Mostly decides to choose evil"
Certainly such a phrase falls short of the concept of total depravity. It suggests that we are not sinners to the core, but merely "mostly" sinful and also a little righteous. This free choice then comes from that still small righteous part of our being.

Then of course we enslave ourselves to sin (not sin enslaves us and Christ frees us). If we enslave ourselves to sin, do we also break the power of sin by our own righteous choices?

Can anyone show me in the scriptures where the unregenerate man still has a small part of his nature that is righteous so that he can make righteous decisions?

 

[follower of Christ]

"Mostly decides to choose evil"
Certainly such a phrase falls short of the concept of total depravity. It suggests that we are not sinners to the core, but merely "mostly" sinful and also a little righteous. This free choice then comes from that still small righteous part of our being.

Then of course we enslave ourselves to sin (not sin enslaves us and Christ frees us). If we enslave ourselves to sin, do we also break the power of sin by our own righteous choices?

Can anyone show me in the scriptures where the unregenerate man still has a small part of his nature that is righteous so that he can make righteous decisions?

Yes, gent, we CAN !
Please...do we have to do this again ? Do you folks READ anything anyone posts ?
Im NOT a Calvinist so I DONT subscribe to your error that man can do no good at all or ever be in line with anything God sees as being 'just'....
Do you call feeding hungry children 'evil' ? Apparently
Do you call being a good husband 'evil' ? apparently.
Well guess what gent...the UNsaved do this stuff EVERY DAY !

Man is SEPARATED from God...that does NOT mean that man is incapable of 'good' even if Calvin was so blinded that he was unable to understand that fact.
Man SINNED and caused SEPARATION from God...mankind, as a whole, was not transformed into child eating animals as you calvinists seem to believe.

READ Romans again and this time pay attention...

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)

And yes, I already know your calvinistic mind has some dodge for that passage, but since WE can read it for ourselves we can know that man is not so utterly depraved that he cannot do anything that God agrees is just.

 

[mondar]

Mostly decides to choose evil

Certainly such a phrase falls short of the concept of total depravity. It suggests that we are not sinners to the core, but merely "mostly" sinful and also a little righteous. This free choice then comes from that still small righteous part of our being.

Can anyone show me in the scriptures where the unregenerate man still has a small part of his nature that is righteous so that he can make righteous decisions?[/quote]
Yes, gent, we CAN !

Do you call feeding hungry children 'evil' ? Apparently
Do you call being a good husband 'evil' ? apparently.
Well guess what gent...the UNsaved do this stuff EVERY DAY !

Well, I guess I did not define total depravity very well. Yes, a mother can love her children, and unregenerate, unbelieving husbands can love their wives. By total depravity I do not mean that we are as sinful as we possibly could be, but rather that sin permeates our entire being, our emotions, or will, or cognitive thinking. So then, yes, even the unregenerate can feed the poor. However, this does not please God, and it is not what I am calling "righteousness."

In fact the scriptures is clear that "there is none righteous, not even one." (Romans 3:10)

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)

I think a little commentary on the context of Romans 2 is in order here. Romans 1-3 is not about the glorious ability of unregenerate man to do good works in the sight of God. Rather, it is about the depravity of both the Gentile and the Jew alike. In Romans Chapter 2, Paul turns his attention to the Jew. Lets look at the context.

First, notice that many translations have a parenthesis around the verses 14-15. Verses 14-15 are an explanation of verse 13. Verse 13 says...
Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
The Jew is the hearer of the law. The Jew trusted in having the law. The thought having the law would make them good enough in the sight of God. Paul is suggesting that they are not justified by hearing the law. Rather, if they seek to be justified by the law, it must be through the keeping of the law perfectly.
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
If one attempts justification by the Mosaic Law, he must keep the whole law or he comes under the curses of the law.

The previous verse reflects this... look at verse 12.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
The person sinning without the law is the Gentile. He perishes in sin. The person who sins under the law, will be judged by the law.

The purpose of Romans 2:14-15 is then to explain something from verse 12-13. If the Jew claims that he can be justified by the Law, and then proceeds to keep only part of the law The question of verse 14-15 is how is the Jew then any different from the Gentile? Even the Gentile keeps parts of the law by nature. There are still aspects of the original law of God still written on his heart. It has been defaced in the fall of Adam. Of course this "written on the heart" is different then the New Covenant when God writes the law upon the heart of the regenerate. The regeneration of the new covenant results in faith. The law on the hearts of Gentiles leads only to a reason for the judgment of the Jew. It does not demonstrate any righteousness on the part of Gentiles. Notice how verse 14-15 ends.
.........and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Is this what the "law of God written on their hearts" does?

 

[Drew]

READ Romans again and this time pay attention...

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)

Although we agree on a lot, I am going to offer an argument that this passage in no way endorses the ability of unregenerate man to "act rightly". I trust you understand that I believe that unregenerate man can "freely" accept grace. But I think this the wrong passage to use to support the position that I see you as advocating.

Here is the passage from Romans 2:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Although this text is widely seen as suggesting that God’s “law†is written on the hearts of human beings in general, Paul here is instead describing the writing of the “law†on the hearts of believers (and in this context, specifically Gentile believers).

The entire discussion turns on the Greek word that has been translated here in the NASB as “instinctively†in verse 14. I am going to argue that this rendering does not properly express Paul’s intent. I will argue that Paul basis assertion is not this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively do the things of the Law…â€Â

…but instead this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law by birth, do the things of the Law….

The reader should note that while the first rendering indeed suggests that pagan Gentiles have a form of law written on their hearts, the second rendering in no sense preferentially supports such a reading over a reading where it is only believing Gentiles that have the law written on their heart (the position that I hold).

The greek root word at issue is “fuseiâ€Â, which is often translated as “by nature†(although not in the NASB rendering of 2:14 where it is rendered as “instinctivelyâ€Â). The western reader should be careful to understand this properly. Paul uses this very same word, in other contexts, to denote what is true of someone by virtue of the circumstances of their birth. One example is Ephesian 2:3:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

Perhaps more tellingly, we have this same root “fusei†used just a few verses further on in Romans 2:

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “physically†and as “instinctively†in verse 14. Note how the word is rendered in the YLT translation of 2:27:

and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.

Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in verse 27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of birth for the Gentile. It seems only reasonable that Paul uses this same greek root in the same “by birth†sense only a few verses back in 2:14.

Thus, it is highly plausible that what Paul is saying in about the law in verse 14 is that the Gentiles do not possess it by the circumstances of their birth, and not that the unregenerate Gentile has an innate, or instinctive sense of the law.

In fact, note how Jeremiah, uses very same “law written on the heart†concept:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Note how the prophet uses “law written on the heart†language to describe something that will happe in the future and will which will be effective only for believers. Paul is deeply knowledgeable of Old Testament concepts and would more likely than not use “law written on the heart†language in the same way it was used in the Old Testament.

 

[follower of Christ]

READ Romans again and this time pay attention...

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)

Although we agree on a lot, I am going to offer an argument that this passage in no way endorses the ability of unregenerate man to "act rightly". I trust you understand that I believe that unregenerate man can "freely" accept grace. But I think this the wrong passage to use to support the position that I see you as advocating.

By what Im seeing from some of you here Id have to believe that your claim is that feeding the hungry is godlessly evil behavior simply because the person who does it isnt born again.
Complete nonsense.

Again, sin separated us from God, it DIDNT turn us, as a race, into "depraved" baby eating animals.
The passage absolutely shows that there is part of man...his 'nature'...his 'conscious'...that is in line with Gods will in the matter.
Men CAN feed the hungry....and doing so is JUST and RIGHT.
Men CAN be good to their wives....and doing so is JUST and RIGHT.

From some posts here I would have to assume that God is a big whiny baby who cannot even agree that FEEDING the hungry is the RIGHT thing to do just because someone who isnt His follower is doing it.
Sorry, but Im not buying that nonsense.
Doing the RIGHT thing is ALWAYS the RIGHT thing whether its done by a born again individual or not.
That doesnt mean that the person is saved...ie has been reconciled to God. It simply means that Paul is right...even those WITHOUT the law CAN, by NATURE, on occasion DO the things of the law.

You and I will simply have to agree to disagree on this point, Drew. Im not open to negotiation in the matter..

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively do the things of the Law…â€Â

…but instead this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law by birth, do the things of the Law….

Yes, I already know your view on the word 'nature' and I dont agree that your understanding of it fits in every instance. The word has multiple english counterparts/renderings depending on the intent.

Romans doesnt just show 'by nature' but also speaks about our 'conscience' as well.

G4893
ÃÆ’Ã…νείδηÃιÂ
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.

God bless

 

[Drew]

The purpose of Romans 2:14-15 is then to explain something from verse 12-13. If the Jew claims that he can be justified by the Law, and then proceeds to keep only part of the law The question of verse 14-15 is how is the Jew then any different from the Gentile? Even the Gentile keeps parts of the law by nature. There are still aspects of the original law of God still written on his heart. It has been defaced in the fall of Adam. Of course this "written on the heart" is different then the New Covenant when God writes the law upon the heart of the regenerate

I disagree. Paul is indeed talking about how God writes his law on the heart of the believer. This is not any kind of statement of the Gentile having an "instinctive" awareness of the law before regeneration. Please refer to my response to FoC.

Let's fast forward to Romans 10. Paul describes the nature of the righteousness of faith:

6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"

Paul has, in Romans 9, recounted the entire covenant history of Israel, from Moses, to Isaac, to Jacob, to the exodus, to the prophets (who compare Israel to a pot), to threats of exile, to the promise of a remnant. In chapter 10, Paul arrives in the present – the cross and the covenant renewal it brings. Now here is the Deuteronomy text from which Paul is quoting in Romans 10:

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes….
.
.
.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

This is the full dress treatment of what is only hinted at in Romans 2. In Romans 2, Paul has introduced the idea of the law written on the heart. Here in Romans 10, he explains himself more fully – covenant renewal, clearly the context for the material he is quoting from Deuteronomy, is the means by which “the law†is written on the heart.

Paul would have to be a very bad writer to use “written on the heart†language in Romans 2 to denote an “innate†sense of the law in the unregenerate, and yet use the very same language in Chapter 10 to denote something entirely different – the state of the regenerated heart upon covenant renewal.

There are other arguments as well to support the assertion that the Romans 2 statement about law written on the heart is made in relation to believers.

 

[Drew]

By what Im seeing from some of you here Id have to believe that your claim is that feeding the hungry is godlessly evil behavior simply because the person who does it isnt born again.
Complete nonsense.

I am, of course, saying nothing of the kind. You merely re-assert your position here without engaging my counter-argument:

The passage absolutely shows that there is part of man...his 'nature'...his 'conscious'...that is in line with Gods will in the matter.

Yes, I already know your view on the word 'nature' and I dont agree that your understanding of it fits in every instance. The word has multiple english counterparts/renderings depending on the intent.

Romans doesnt just show 'by nature' but also speaks about our 'conscience' as well.

But you are not really substantially engaging my argument. I never claimed the root "fusei" means the same thing in all instances. I made an actual argumet about what it means here. And my argument is not damaged by the allusion to a conscience.

The regenerate person has a functioning conscience as a result of his regeneration.

 

[Drew]

Gentlemen: Do you not agree that the Old Testament has "law written on the heart" language in relation to covenant renewal? Do you therefore not see how natural it would be to assume that Paul is using such language in accordance with Biblical precedent - as he does so often in relation to other issues - and is therefore talking about the status of the redeemed person in Romans 2?

 

[follower of Christ]

READERS have a look at this concerning Romans and the 'conscience'....

Romans here shows both 'by nature' and 'their conscience'.
MY assertion is that this passage speaks about the MANS nature and the MANS conscience.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)

The word 'conscience' there is this;

G4893
ÃÆ’Ã…νείδηÃιÂ
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.

Lets compare the word "conscience' to other passages where it is used and see if it ever applies TO the unsaved.
This passage is where the UNsaved pharisees have just tried to trick Jesus.

They said this, tempting Him so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But bending down, Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger, not appearing to hear. But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. And again bending down, He wrote on the ground. And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
(John 8:6-9 MKJV)

Same word as in Romans above...
These UNSAVED men, as far from God as they were...as WE know the Pharisees were... KNEW they were not guiltless of sin and wrongdoing, thus their own conscience caused them to drop their stones and leave.

Point is that EVEN the godless Pharisees could be convicted by their own conscience to KNOW that they had done wrong.
Just as with the Romans passage...men can KNOW, saved or not, that they have done evil.
The unsaved are simply yet to be reconciled to God and filled with the Spirit so they can be forgiven for sins.
They are ruled by their spiritless minds, but like the Pharisees above, ARE capable of knowing when they have done good or evil.

.