How free is our will?

[Benoni]

I agree with you; Jesus was tempted but did not sin; and so was Adam. Jesus overcame the temptation; Adam was tempted and was ordained to fall; both were tempted by the deviil. This point has been brought up so many times was twisted to mean sin because this was the only verse that was remotely came close to some sort of thought of sin.

Cut to the chase (to the one who knows Wisdom):

Jesus was truly tempted (sorely tempted like as we): Was it possible for him to have sinned?
We know he never did. Just asking if it were possible. I suspect there will be two camps formed around this question. I might be the only one who stands alone. It isn't asked to encourage bickering but asked only to those who are capable of thought.

PS. Congratulations Cornelius:
Christian Forum Pro

Posts: 2000

 

[shad]

How free is our will?

We are free within God's Laws(will).

 

[Cornelius]

PS. Congratulations Cornelius:
Christian Forum Pro

Posts: 2000

LOL, I did not notice :P

 

[Benoni]

I like this better... We are free with in God's grace. The law leads us to will, but His will is written on our hearts not our minds; the law did not work for the Jews; why should the law work for us?

How free is our will?

We are free within God's Laws(will).

 

[follower of Christ]

Of course, one can find educated people who will disagree on the matter of what is going on in Romans 2:14-15. NT Wright, one of the world's most respected New Testament scholars argues that the Gentile who obeys the law in these verses can only be a believer:

Of course.
Which is why I post scholars thoughts only for the purpose of showing that Im not the ONLY person on the planet to have arrived at a particular conclusion.

FoC: Do you not think it strange that Paul would use "law written on the heart" language to describe an unbeliever when the Biblical precedent is always that the law will be written on the heart at the time of covenant renewal?

Not at all given what Paul says.
I personally believe that God does exactly what Paul says. Most of mankind has a small part of Gods law in the hearts and that is where our conscience and sense of morality is born from.

We are ALL created by God, are we not ?
It should be no big surprise then that Gods law could be written in the hearts to whatever extent in much of humanity.

 

[follower of Christ]

The whole story of Joseph was planned and executed by God. The whole story is the story of Jesus and the story of of the end time tribulation. They had no free will in this, God needed the people to do exactly what He wanted , so that they would paint a faithful picture of something bigger, that was coming in the future.

I wrote the type and shadow explanation in another thread viewtopic.php?f=17&p=476920#p476920 none of it is coincidental, everything is from God. God needed the brothers of Joseph to sell him into slavery, God wanted Potiphar's to try and seduce Joseph, because that picture points to Jesus and the Harlot religious system of His day. The very system that condemned Jesus to death. The same picture also points to the Harlot in Revelation, that again will try and seduce "Joseph" and will persecute him.

Nothing is accidental.Nothing happened out of free will. God planned it all.

And where God has a determined will it WILL occur.
Look at the story of Jonah. Some believe that he wasnt a literal man, some say otherwise but the theme of the story is quite clear either way. When God has determined that something IS going to happen, then men have no choice but to do what He wills. Same with Pharoah.
So we know that in some things there is a 'determined' will of God that must come about.
But where those such as benoni go wrong is in not understanding that God also has his permissive will. That which He allows to occur and is no threat to His determined will.

For instance, God will not allow this world to be blown apart by Nuclear bombs....at least it would never be permitted to happen until He deemed it was time.


The following was written by a dear friend of mine on the matter of Gods will.

1) The Determined Will: This is the will of God that either was or is put in motion and we can only see the outcome. We have nothing to do with this and it cannot be altered.
2) The Permissive Will: This is God’s will in which He allows us to determine if we eat toast with butter, sleep on the couch or bed or perhaps wear a red or blue shirt etc. We have our say in these kinds of matters unless they conflict with something God is working in our lives.
3) The Desired Will: This is God’s will for everyone on earth to follow. These are precepts or rules of conduct such as do this or don’t do that. This will requires our cooperation.
4) The Personal Will: This is God’s will for every individual. He made each of us for a reason or purpose and we need to seek out His personal will for our lives.

READERS SEE >>>The Will of God

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Cut to the chase (to the one who knows Wisdom):

Jesus was truly tempted (sorely tempted like as we): Was it possible for him to have sinned?
We know he never did. Just asking if it were possible. I suspect there will be two camps formed around this question. I might be the only one who stands alone. It isn't asked to encourage bickering but asked only to those who are capable of thought.

PS. Congratulations Cornelius:
Christian Forum Pro

Posts: 2000

Jesus was God...and also man.
If it were not possible for the part of Him that was man to sin, then what was the purpose of His allowing Himself to be tempted ?
Was it for drama and suspense ?

 

[Benoni]

To reverse the curse.

Everything Adam did wrong, Jesus did right.

Cut to the chase (to the one who knows Wisdom):

Jesus was truly tempted (sorely tempted like as we): Was it possible for him to have sinned?
We know he never did. Just asking if it were possible. I suspect there will be two camps formed around this question. I might be the only one who stands alone. It isn't asked to encourage bickering but asked only to those who are capable of thought.

PS. Congratulations Cornelius:
Christian Forum Pro

Posts: 2000

Jesus was God...and also man.
If it were not possible for the part of Him that was man to sin, then what was the purpose of His allowing Himself to be tempted ?
Was it for drama and suspense ?

 

[follower of Christ]

To reverse the curse.

Everything Adam did wrong, Jesus did right.

Nice dodge.
Answer the actual question with a real answer and give me a ring.
Here it is again;

If it were not possible for the part of Him that was man to sin, then what was the purpose of His allowing Himself to be tempted ?

Jesus being tempted but being entirely unable to choose to sin (as a man) would make His temptation a bit meaningless.
Only if He (as a man) had the capacity to choose to sin does His being tempted have any real weight.
That He (as a man) had the capacity to sin, yet He did not, makes His temptation actually mean something to us.

 

[Sparkey]

* "Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: Behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi."

:o Who has failed? to tear down their high places before the Lord God Almighty? The Lord knows. Join your prayer to mine - that he who commits this sin be struck down by the arrow of the Lord God. Fall before His Judgment and understand the goodness and mercy of Him who gives the choice. Join my prayer and invite Him to make life changing decrees into our very lives and hearts. :yes

Lord, you who have declared, "The heart of man is deceptive who can know it?" Search me. I trust your Judgment and invite your arrow into my life. :amen


~Sparrowhawke; a little bird loving her GOD


____________________________
Crossreference /// Footnotes:
In the NAME: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=39555&p=477031#p477031

*1Kings 12:31-32

 

[Benoni]

Jesus could choose all day long but had no reason to choose sin for He is the lamb slain; but the point of our disagreement has always been with creation story, that God caused the fall not Adam. The other point is carnal man having no choice or freewill to save himself, both of these points are scriptural. But no you assume and have no scripture to back up your false claim or assumption that it was little Adam and not God who caused the fall. We all have freewill and choice to sin who were born under Adam; but we cannot choose God, God must draw/drag or force us out of our dead carnal state. Eph.2.

Why is it a dodge to say “Adam did everything wrong and Jesus did everything right�

The problem you view is you are trying to spin temptation and sin means the same thing because you do not like Romans 8:20 and PS 90.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men."

You could never read this word "return" here, if you had not first read that man had been "turned" away to destruction.
In this passage the word "destruction" has this meaning in the original: a complete collapse, crumbling man to a contrite condition.

So you attempt to spin the word temptation to mean man has a choice or freewill toward his own salvation, because it is the only verse you have, to attempt to prove man has a freewill or choice toward salvation. No one is denying man has a free choice or freewill to sin; BUT Both Jesus and Adam were tempted.

John 6:44 does not say: No man can come to me, except (he has a freewill or choice) and I will raise him up at the last day.

The verse declares John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

To reverse the curse.

Everything Adam did wrong, Jesus did right.

Nice dodge.
Answer the actual question with a real answer and give me a ring.
Here it is again;

If it were not possible for the part of Him that was man to sin, then what was the purpose of His allowing Himself to be tempted ?

Jesus being tempted but being entirely unable to choose to sin (as a man) would make His temptation a bit meaningless.
Only if He (as a man) had the capacity to choose to sin does His being tempted have any real weight.
That He (as a man) had the capacity to sin, yet He did not, makes His temptation actually mean something to us.

 

[Sparkey]

Jesus could choose all day long but had no reason...

Benoni, I'm confused by you now. Was the above directed to me? If so, you will have to actually say my name else I can not follow. If not to me (I'm the one who introduced that concept just a couple posts ago) then pardon my interruption into your discussion.

I do not desire to slay this Goliath with a sword and this little bird has not chosen rocks. I come in the Name of the Lord and would only seek to slay with a gnat. The gnat that I choose is the Greek word, ean /// eh-an' as used in Romans 11:22. Oh, this word is used everywhere so I'll not limit to Romans only but urge you to explore the concept of "IF".

~SparrowHAWKE

 

[Benoni]

No.. Sorry... It was directed to follower.

Jesus could choose all day long but had no reason...

Benoni, I'm confused by you now. Was the above directed to me? If so, you will have to actually say my name else I can not follow. If not to me (I'm the one who introduced that concept just a couple posts ago) then pardon my interruption into your discussion.

~SparrowHAWKE

 

[Sparkey]

No.. Sorry... It was directed to follower.

Jesus could choose all day long but had no reason...

Benoni, I'm confused by you now. Was the above directed to me? If so, you will have to actually say my name else I can not follow. If not to me (I'm the one who introduced that concept just a couple posts ago) then pardon my interruption into your discussion.

~SparrowHAWKE

Even though you do not acknowledge speaking to me, pray consider the concept of "IF" as I have suggested.

 

[follower of Christ]

Jesus could choose all day long but had no reason to choose sin

As usual you miss the point and run into irrelevance.
The POINT is that Jesus allowed Himself to be tempted. *IF* it were impossible for Him TO sin, then His temptation would be meaningless.
With me so far ?

Therefore BECAUSE He WAS capable of sin (because He was also a man made of flesh) His WINNING OVER temptation actually has some MEANING.

2+2=4....or is it 5 where you live ?

The problem you view is you are trying to spin temptation and sin means the same thing because you do not like Romans 8:20 and PS 90.

Temptation without the possibility or abilty to succumb TO that temptation is meaningless drama.
I realize your god may do things that way, but the God of the scriptures always has something in mind when He does something.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

out of context, not relevant to the topic at hand.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men."

see above.

So you attempt to spin the word temptation to mean man has a choice or freewill toward his own salvation,

Man DOESNT have a choice until the Father draws and presents that choice.
At that point, yes, man CAN reject salvation as proven in scripture.
But we've covered this already, havent we benoni ?

READERS SEE >>> Scriptural support provided by FoC:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=476086#p476086
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475968
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475969
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475970

because it is the only verse you have,

Please
See the links. Your error has been utterly decimated. You just havent realized it yet.

to attempt to prove man has a freewill or choice toward salvation. No one is denying man has a free choice or freewill to sin; BUT Both Jesus and Adam were tempted.

When the Father draws, a man has choice to reject salvation or repent.

John 6:44 does not say: No man can come to me, except (he has a freewill or choice) and I will raise him up at the last day.

....When the Father draws, a man has choice to reject salvation or repent.

The verse declares John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

...When the Father draws, a man has choice to reject salvation or repent.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

Sorry but your twist on ONE word doesnt negate the context from the WHOLE word of God.

 

[Benoni]

Man DOESNT have a choice until the Father draws and presents that choice.
At that point, yes, man CAN reject salvation as proven in scripture.
But we've covered this already, havent we benoni ?

Wrong... We have already gone over the word freewill and yes carnal man has a freewill to sin; that is the way God created us; God caused the fall no matter how many times your reject Romans 8:20 and Ps 90: 1-3.

Once God draws you this is where you are wrong; the word draw means to drag or force this is proven by the eight verses in the scriptures that show how the word is used plus the lanuages shows no hint of choice or freewill as you try so hard to spin into this verse to change it meaning. This is spin which you cannot back up with anything but your opinion. "No one can come" "except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him"

NOTHING anywhere in the word draw or this verse even begins to suggest the word choose.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

 

[Sparkey]

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

DRAW:
Strong's: G1670

ἑλκÃÂÉ, ἕλκÉ
helkuÃ…Â helkÃ…Â
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

helkuÃ…Â / helkÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably akin to G138
Citing in TDNT: 2:503, 227
________________________________________________

Benoni - Are you certain you wish to hang your entire doctrine on a "probably"???
Seems strange and uncharacteristic of you to do this (well, at least to me).

Strongs suggests that we compare G138 with G1667. Shall we?

G138
αἱÃÂέομαι
aihreomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2) to choose by vote, elect to office
Part of Speech: verb

G1667
ἑλίÃÆ’Ãă
helissÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to roll up, fold together
Part of Speech: verb
_____________________________________________________

When we look at other uses of G1670 (helkuÃ…Â helkÃ…Â ), we see:
helkuÃ…Â : To draw, draw out or towards: ἑλκÃÂÉ
John 6:44 "unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 12:32 "when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 18:10 "Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 21:6 "When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish. http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 21:11 "Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore." http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
Acts 16:19 "owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities." http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv

helkÃ…Â : To draw out or towards: ἕλκÉ
Acts 21:30 "Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple" http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
James 2:6 "Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv

___________________________________________________

Although you might rightly cite the above examples for the use of force as supporting your claim - there is a distinction. Yes, the NET that "draws" the fish to the boat is forceful - does this refer to the choice of the fish to swim in that area? No.

The Lord is calling us with His Deep Desire to come. Are we forced to? No. Does this not resolve the question? If no, consider the Gnat - the small word "IF" as in "IF ye shall continue..."
The choice that we make is not only one to repent (in response to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that is, in response to His drawing us) but it is also that we continue in that same direction. Imagine us walking away from a city - and not looking back. Can we look back? Consider the wife of Lot.

Now consider my choice (and yours also with me) as I continue to strive with you in gentle spirit and not wrath. We are commanded to remember the Longsuffering of God toward usward. If we count His longsuffering toward us to be our salvation --then how much should we have patience one toward each other? Do you have a choice to continue ignoring me? Of course you do.

Cordially yours,
~Sparrowhawke

 

[Benoni]

I am a lot more flexible then certain people think; but when you have to debate certain people who spin and assume with no scriptural foundation that is where I stand like a rock. Point being the choosen happens after the quickening or drawing and man really does not have a choice when an all powerful mighty God draws you.

Man has a freewill to sin; that is the way God created us; but until God draws us with His spirit we are dead and cannot choose. The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important.

undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God. One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory.

Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

DRAW:
Strong's: G1670

ἑλκÃÂÉ, ἕλκÉ
helkuÃ…Â helkÃ…Â
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

helkuÃ…Â / helkÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably akin to G138
Citing in TDNT: 2:503, 227
________________________________________________

Benoni - Are you certain you wish to hang your entire doctrine on a "probably"???
Seems strange and uncharacteristic of you to do this (well, at least to me).

Strongs suggests that we compare G138 with G1667. Shall we?

G138
αἱÃÂέομαι
aihreomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2) to choose by vote, elect to office
Part of Speech: verb

G1667
ἑλίÃÆ’Ãă
helissÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to roll up, fold together
Part of Speech: verb
_____________________________________________________

When we look at other uses of G1670 (helkuÃ…Â helkÃ…Â ), we see:
helkuÃ…Â : To draw, draw out or towards: ἑλκÃÂÉ
John 6:44 "unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 12:32 "when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 18:10 "Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 21:6 "When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish. http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
John 21:11 "Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore." http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
Acts 16:19 "owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities." http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv

helkÃ…Â : To draw out or towards: ἕλκÉ
Acts 21:30 "Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple" http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv
James 2:6 "Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" http://biblestudy.crosswalk.com/mybst/default.aspx?type=bible&reference=joh 6:44&translation=niv

___________________________________________________

Although you might rightly cite the above examples for the use of force as supporting your claim - there is a distinction. Yes, the NET that "draws" the fish to the boat is forceful - does this refer to the choice of the fish to swim in that area? No.

The Lord is calling us with His Deep Desire to come. Are we forced to? No. Does this not resolve the question? If no, consider the Gnat - the small word "IF" as in "IF ye shall continue..."
The choice that we make is not only one to repent (in response to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that is, in response to His drawing us) but it is also that we continue in that same direction. Imagine us walking away from a city - and not looking back. Can we look back? Consider the wife of Lot.

Now consider my choice (and yours also with me) as I continue to strive with you in gentle spirit and not wrath. We are commanded to remember the Longsuffering of God toward usward. If we count His longsuffering toward us to be our salvation --then how much should we have patience one toward each other? Do you have a choice to continue ignoring me? Of course you do.

Cordially yours,
~Sparrowhawke

 

[Sparkey]

I am a lot more flexible then certain people think; but when you have to debate certain people who spin and assume with no scriptural foundation that is where I stand like a rock. Point being the choosen happens after the quickening or drawing and man really does not have a choice when an all powerful mighty God draws you.

Man has a freewill to sin; that is the way God created us; but until God draws us with His spirit we are dead and cannot choose. The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important.

undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God. One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory.

Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.

Ya know? When you speak from that place in your heart - I don't find any disagreement.
*wink

We all struggle to become wholehearted, yes?

Behold! How good and how pleasant is the living of brothers, even in unity.
It is like the precious oil on the head that ran down on the beard, Aaron's beard, going down to the mouth of his garments;
like the dew of Hermon coming down on the mountains of Zion; for there Jehovah commanded the blessing: life till everlasting.

Benoni - He wishes to use us to draw others. Yea, even to compel others. HE is the master fisherman, not ye, not me. I keep hearing and striving to listen - "Be still and BEHOLD: I am God.

~Sparrow

[youtube:1visjrgj]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ73WGnojc[/youtube:1visjrgj]

 

[Benoni]

It is the forums

I love the debate.


Colossians 3:15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

(Amp) 15And let the peace (soul harmony which comes) from Christ rule (act as umpire continually) in your hearts [deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state] to which as [members of Christ's] one body you were also called [to live]. And be thankful (appreciative), [giving praise to God always].

I am at peace; but thank you for your concern.

I am a lot more flexible then certain people think; but when you have to debate certain people who spin and assume with no scriptural foundation that is where I stand like a rock. Point being the choosen happens after the quickening or drawing and man really does not have a choice when an all powerful mighty God draws you.

Man has a freewill to sin; that is the way God created us; but until God draws us with His spirit we are dead and cannot choose. The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important.

undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God. One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory.

Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.

Ya know? When you speak from that place in your heart - I don't find any disagreement.
*wink

We all struggle to become wholehearted, yes?

Behold! How good and how pleasant is the living of brothers, even in unity.
It is like the precious oil on the head that ran down on the beard, Aaron's beard, going down to the mouth of his garments;
like the dew of Hermon coming down on the mountains of Zion; for there Jehovah commanded the blessing: life till everlasting.

Benoni - He wishes to use us to draw others. Yea, even to compel others. HE is the master fisherman, not ye, not me. I keep hearing and striving to listen - "Be still and BEHOLD: I am God.

~Sparrow

[youtube:3ts86cg3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ73WGnojc[/youtube:3ts86cg3]