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How free is our will?

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Drew said:
I am, of course, saying nothing of the kind. You merely re-assert your position here without engaging my counter-argument:
And that I do.
Im not going to waste a day nitpicking thru 100 more reasons why someone doesnt agree with my assessment.
What *I* am going to do is confirm what I believe and why I believe it. Much more effective and since Im not trying to change your mind, much less of my time wasted.

But you are not really substantially engaging my argument.
see above.


I never claimed the root "fusei" means the same thing in all instances. I made an actual argumet about what it means here. And my argument is not damaged by the allusion to a conscience.

The regenerate person has a functioning conscience as a result of his regeneration.
Fallacious.
The pharisees were NOT regenerate...and yet even their own conscience DID cause them to discern that they HAD done wrong....
See below.
Mans 'conscience' and knowing good and evil
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that man does have a conscience that can be in line with Gods law and can understand that, even when unregenerate, he has committed wrong/evil and/or good.

Supporting Evidence
Romans here shows both 'by nature' and 'their conscience'.
MY assertion is that this passage speaks about the MANS nature and the MANS conscience.
[quote:39b1ecqw]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)
The word 'conscience' there is this;
G4893
ÃÆ’Ã…νείδηÃιÂ
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.

Lets compare the word "conscience' to other passages where it is used and see if it ever applies TO the unsaved.
This passage is where the UNsaved pharisees have just tried to trick Jesus.
They said this, tempting Him so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But bending down, Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger, not appearing to hear. But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. And again bending down, He wrote on the ground. And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
(John 8:6-9 MKJV)
Same word as in Romans above...
These UNSAVED men, as far from God as they were...as WE know the Pharisees were... KNEW they were not guiltless of sin and wrongdoing, thus their own conscience caused them to drop their stones and leave.

Point is that EVEN the godless Pharisees could be convicted by their own conscience to KNOW that they had done wrong.
Just as with the Romans passage...men can KNOW, saved or not, that they have done evil.
The unsaved are simply yet to be reconciled to God and filled with the Spirit so they can be forgiven for sins.
They are ruled by their spiritless minds, but like the Pharisees above, ARE capable of knowing when they have done good or evil.

.[/quote:39b1ecqw]And this is the problem here on this forum. Many here read SOME of the data without looking to ALL of it to see how words are used in EVERY case.
ALL of the relevant data HAS to be accounted for BEFORE taking a stance in a matter of doctrine....




.
 
follower of Christ said:
Lets compare the word "conscience' to other passages where it is used and see if it ever applies TO the unsaved.
This passage is where the UNsaved pharisees have just tried to trick Jesus.
They said this, tempting Him so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But bending down, Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger, not appearing to hear. But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. And again bending down, He wrote on the ground. And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
(John 8:6-9 MKJV)
These UNSAVED men, as far from God as they were...as WE know the Pharisees were... KNEW they were not guiltless of sin and wrongdoing, thus their own conscience caused them to drop their stones and leave.
But this is not correct logic. The fact that the word conscience is sometime used in respect to the unsaved does not mean that whenever it is used, it is being used to refer to the unsaved.

That would be like showing that one unbeliever has brown hair and thereby concluding that any reference to a person with brown hair must involve a reference to an unbeliever. My argument is not immune to this - everybody has a conscience.
 
1. There is Old Testament bibical precedent of "law written on the heart" language being used exclusively in relation to what happens when the covenant is renewed.

2. Paul clearly sees the work of Jesus as renewing that covenant.

3. Paul therefore concludes that those who participate in the new covenant - believers - get the law written on their hearts.

4. Paul is a careful writer - it would be very odd for him to use "law written on the heart" language to refer to unbelievers, when the Old Testament tradtion clearly uses the term to refer to what happens at covenant renewal.

5. The fact that that the word "conscience" is sometime used in relation to unbelievers does not mean that, in another context, it is used in relation to a believer. You seem to be arguing thus:

a. The Romans 2 passage refers to the activity of a "conscience";
b. There are examples where unbelievers act according to their "conscience";
c. Therefore, the Romans 2 passage must be about non-believers.

That is simply not correct logic.
 
Drew said:
But this is not correct logic.
please. :nono
Using the word CONSISTENTLY IS logical.

The fact that the word conscience is sometime used in respect to the unsaved does not mean that whenever it is used, it is being used to refer to the unsaved.
Ive made my case. I dont require that you agree with it Drew. You can choose to believe whatever you wish.
The FACT is that the UNregenerate Pharisees DID comprehend by their own conscience that they HAD done evil...and that is why they dropped their stones and left...convicted BY their conscience.

Again, I am not so bold as to require your agreement. You can choose to ignore the facts as you see fit.

.
 
Drew said:
1. There is Old Testament bibical precedent of "law written on the heart" language being used exclusively in relation to what happens when the covenant is renewed.
Sorry but that isnt what Paul shows in Romans.

2. Paul clearly sees the work of Jesus as renewing that covenant.
O...K... :chin

3. Paul therefore concludes that those who participate in the new covenant - believers - get the law written on their hearts.
And Romans shows very clearly that Gods law CAN be written to whatever extent on even those who do not have the law.


4. Paul is a careful writer - it would be very odd for him to use "law written on the heart" language to refer to unbelievers, when the Old Testament tradtion clearly uses the term to refer to what happens at covenant renewal.
Personal opinion, Im afraid.
Ive made my case.

5. The fact that that the word "conscience" is sometime used in relation to unbelievers does not mean that, in another context, it is used in relation to a believer. You seem to be arguing thus:
Sorry but it fits the facts exactly.
Jesus told them that if any of them had NOT SINNED (ie been disobedient to Gods law) then they could cast the first stone.
They knew they had not been without sin even without BEING REGENERATE, thus their own conscience was enough for them to drop their stones and leave.

That is simply not correct logic.
You can keep saying it Drew...and believe me Im not about to waste my day here with you in the matter, but the FACTS from the WHOLE word show that it is YOUR conclusions that are lacking.

The UNREGENERATE Pharisees being convicted by THEIR conscience KNOWING they had transgressed against God law...
Paul shows that even the gentiles who dont even have the law can do as much.

Now, unless you have some new revelation from God in the matter, Im going to drop the point here because Im not wasting my day on this point. :)

READERS SEE >>> Mans 'conscience' and knowing good and evil


.
 
follower of Christ said:
Drew said:
But this is not correct logic.
please. :nono
Using the word CONSISTENTLY IS logical.
No. As in english, so in greek. Words have semantic ranges and do not means the same things is all uses. In any event, your argument is not valid - the fact that unbelievers are described as having consciences does not mean that the term conscience cannot be used in relation to believers. I am not sure why you do not agree with this.
 
Drew said:
follower of Christ said:
Drew said:
But this is not correct logic.
please. :nono
Using the word CONSISTENTLY IS logical.
No. As in english, so in greek. Words have semantic ranges and do not means the same things is all uses. In any event, your argument is not valid -
Im sorry to disappoint you but the TOPIC was Jesus saying that if any of them had not SINNED to cast the first stone.
BY conviction of THEIR CONSCIENCE they dropped their stones and left.
The UNREGENERATE pharisees were convicted by their own conscience and discerned they had sinned.


You know, something I find more unappealing about humanity than a lot of other things is when man cant just admit that he was wrong when presented with the evidence.
I find it to be one of the more distasteful things about our race.
the fact that unbelievers are described as having consciences does not mean that the term conscience cannot be used in relation to believers. I am not sure why you do not agree with this.
I never said it couldnt...so I have clue what our point is.
The Romans passage is in complete agreement with what happened with Christ and the Pharisees.
Unregenerate man can, by his conscience, discern when he has done evil.


.
 
follower of Christ said:
You know, something I find more unappealing about humanity than a lot of other things is when man cant just admit that he was wrong when presented with the evidence.
I agree. And yet the irony is that you do not realize who this really applies to.

Let me try one last time. Your argument would only work if only unregenerate persons have consciences. Then, indeed, you could say that any text which talks about people with consciences must be talking about unbelievers.

But, of course, this is not the case - all human beings have consciences. So the reference to the action of a conscience in Romans 2 is simply not evidence in support of the proposition that this text must be about non-believers.

Imagine if I found a text where the word "consience" was used in relation to a believer and then argued that this means that the Romans 2 text must be about believers. You would rightly point out the error of such reasoning.
 
follower of Christ said:
Unregenerate man can, by his conscience, discern when he has done evil.
As can redeemed man. So the reference to the action of a "conscience" is not evidence either way.

On the other hand, we have Romans 10, not to mention the long Old Testament tradition of using "law written on the heart" language to refer to what happens when the covenant is renewed.

It is therefore rather unlikely that Paul would use such language to refer to the status of unbelievers. Why? Because we know that Paul sees faith in Christ as the mark of the people of the new covenant (Romans 10).
 
Drew said:
I agree. And yet the irony is that you do not realize who this really applies to.
And you dont even remotely believe that I didnt expect this to be your response ?

Let me try one last time.
Its your quarter...waste as much time and energy as you see fit.
I'll be going off for a bit because I have other things Id like to do today, however...
Your argument would only work if only unregenerate persons have consciences.
Sorry but this is fallacious and I have no clue how one would even arrive at such a conclusion.

Then, indeed, you could say that any text which talks about people with consciences must be talking about unbelievers.
Sorry but I made no such claim....are you going to pull a benoni on me here and start INSERTING words into my mouth, Drew ?
please let me know now so I know what to expect of your posts

But, of course, this is not the case - all human beings have consciences.
Never said they did. Clearly many dont. Next point ?

So the reference to the action of a conscience in Romans 2 is simply not evidence in support of the proposition that this text must be about non-believers.
Actually the precise wording of the statement very much supports that Paul is talking about the unregenerate when he speaks about their NATURE and their CONSCIENCE in unison with their NOT having the law to guide them.
Imagine if I found a text where the word "consience" was used in relation to a believer and then argued that this means that the Romans 2 text must be about believers. You would rightly point out the error of such reasoning.
Please. Ive done nothing of the sort.
Ive simply made the case that the UNREGENERATE man IS capable of discerning evil based on those two passages.
Anything beyond that is your own insertion, Im afraid.


Mans 'conscience' and knowing good and evil
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that man does have a conscience that can be in line with Gods law and can understand that, even when unregenerate, he has committed wrong/evil and/or good.

Supporting Evidence
Romans here shows both 'by nature' and 'their conscience'.
MY assertion is that this passage speaks about the MANS nature and the MANS conscience.
[quote:3v8o9da2]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)
The word 'conscience' there is this;
G4893
ÃÆ’Ã…νείδηÃιÂ
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.

Lets compare the word "conscience' to other passages where it is used and see if it ever applies TO the unsaved.
This passage is where the UNsaved pharisees have just tried to trick Jesus.
They said this, tempting Him so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But bending down, Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger, not appearing to hear. But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. And again bending down, He wrote on the ground. And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
(John 8:6-9 MKJV)
Same word as in Romans above...
These UNSAVED men, as far from God as they were...as WE know the Pharisees were... KNEW they were not guiltless of sin and wrongdoing, thus their own conscience caused them to drop their stones and leave.

Point is that EVEN the godless Pharisees could be convicted by their own conscience to KNOW that they had done wrong.
Just as with the Romans passage...men can KNOW, saved or not, that they have done evil.
The unsaved are simply yet to be reconciled to God and filled with the Spirit so they can be forgiven for sins.
They are ruled by their spiritless minds, but like the Pharisees above, ARE capable of knowing when they have done good or evil.

.[/quote:3v8o9da2]
 
Now, Im off for a while.
Y'all have fun now...y'heah...
 
I will not pursue the "conscience" argument any further (in relation to Romans 2) since I see no hope of resolution. No hard feelings, and onto the next issue.....
 
Back to Romans 2:14-15

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Adam Clarke, a man whom I dont agree with on many occasions, says this...

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, etc.
- Nor does it follow that the Gentiles who have not had a Divine revelation, shall either perish, because they had it not; or their unrighteous conduct pass unpunished, because not having this revelation might be considered as an excuse for their sins.

Do by nature the things contained in the law -
Do, without this Divine revelation, through that light which God imparts to every man, the things contained in the law - act according to justice, mercy, temperance and truth, the practice of which the revealed law so powerfully enjoins; these are a law unto themselves - they are not accountable to any other law, and are not to be judged by any dispensation different from that under which they live.


Which show the work of the law -
In acting according to justice, mercy, temperance, and truth, they show that the great object of the law, which was to bring men from injustice, cruelty, intemperance, and falsity, is accomplished so far in them: their conscience also bearing witness - that faculty of the soul, where that Divine light dwells and works, shows them that they are right; and thus they have a comfortable testimony in their own souls of their own integrity: their thoughts, the mean while, accusing, or else excusing one another; or rather, their reasonings between one another accusing or answering for themselves. As if the apostle had said: - And this point, that they have a law and act according to it, is farther proved from their conduct in civil affairs; and from that correct sense which they have of natural justice in their debates, either in their courts of law, or in their treatises on morality. All these are ample proofs that God has not left them without light; and that, seeing they have such correct notions of right and wrong, they are accountable to God for their conduct in reference to these notions and principles. These seems to be the true meaning of this difficult clause. See below.

Albert Barnes says this...(I also dont agree with Barnes on many occasions.)


For when -
The apostle, in Rom_2:13, had stated a general principle, that the doers of the Law only can be justified, if justification is attempted by the Law. In this verse and the next, he proceeds to show that the same principle is applicable to the pagan; that though they have not the written Law of God, yet that they have sufficient knowledge of his will to take away every excuse for sin, and consequently that the course of reasoning by which he had come to the conclusion that they were guilty, is well founded. This verse is not to be understood as affirming, as an historical fact, that any of the pagan ever did perfectly obey the Law which they had, any more than the previous verse affirms it of the Jews, The main point in the argument is, that if people are justified by the Law, their obedience must be entire and perfect; that this is not to be external only, or to consist in hearing or in acknowledging the justice of the Law; and that the Gentiles had an opportunity of illustrating this principle as well as the Jews, since they also had a law among themselves. The word “when†ὅÄαν hotan does not imply that the thing shall certainly take place, but is one form of introducing a supposition; or of stating the connection of one thing with another, Mat_5:11; Mat_6:2, Mat_6:5-6, Mat_6:16; Mat_10:19. It is, however, true that the main things contained in this verse, and the next, actually occurred, that the Gentiles did many things which the Law of God required.

The Gentiles -
All who were not Jews.

Which have not the law -
Who have net a revelation, or the written word of God. In the Greek the article is omitted, “who have not law,†that is, any revealed law.

By nature -
By some, this phrase has been supposed to belong to the previous member of the sentence, “who have not the law by nature.†But our translation is the more natural and usual construction. The expression means clearly by the light of conscience and reason, and whatever other helps they may have without revelation. It denotes simply, in that state which is without the revealed will of God. In that condition they had many helps of tradition, conscience, reason, and the observation of the dealings of divine Providence, so that to a considerable extent they knew what was right and what was wrong.

Do the things -
Should they not merely understand and approve, but actually perform the things required in the Law.

Contained in the law -
Literally, the things of the Law, that is, the things which the Law requires. Many of those things might be done by the pagan, as, e. g., respect to parents. truth, justice, honesty, chastity. So far as they did any of those things, so far they showed that they had a law among themselves. And wherein they failed in these things they showed that they were justly condemned. “Are a law unto themselves.†This is explained in the following verse. It means that their own reason and conscience constituted, in these things, a law, or prescribed that for them which the revealed law did to the Jews.

Which show -
Who thus evince or show.
The work of the law - The design, purpose, or object which is contemplated by the revealed Law; that is, to make known to man his duty, and to enforce the obligation to perform it. This does not mean, by any means, that they had all the knowledge which the Law would impart, for then there would have been no need of a revelation, but that, as far as it went, as far as they had a knowledge of right and wrong,>>> they coincided with the revealed will of God.<<<
In other words, the will of God, whether made known by reason or revelation, will be the same so far as reason goes. The difference is that revelation goes further than reason; sheds light on new duties and doctrines; as the information given by the naked eye and the telescope is the same, except, that the telescope carries the sight forward, and reveals new worlds to the sight of man.

Written in their hearts -
The revealed Law of God was written on tables of stone, and then recorded in the books of the Old Testament. This law the Gentiles did not possess, but, to a certain extent, the same requirements were written on their hearts. Though not revealed to them as to the Jews, yet they had obtained the knowledge of them by the tight of nature. The word “hearts†here denotes the mind itself, as it does also frequently in the Sacred Scriptures; not the heart, as the seat of the affections. It does not mean that they loved or even approved of the Law, but that they had knowledge of it; and that that knowledge was deeply engraved on their minds.

Their conscience -
This word properly means the judgment of the mind respecting right and wrong; or the judgment which the mind passes on the morality or immorality of its own actions, when it instantly approves or condemns them.
It has usually been termed the moral sense, and is a very important principle in a moral government. Its design is to answer the purposes of an ever attendant witness of a man’s conduct; to compel him to pronounce on his own doings, and thus to excite him to virtuous deeds, to give comfort and peace when he does right, to deter from evil actions by making him, whether he will or no, his own executioner: see Joh_8:9; Act_23:1; Act_24:16; Rom_9:1; 1Ti_1:5. By nature every man thus approves or condemns his own acts; and there is not a profounder principle of the divine administration, than thus compelling every man to pronounce on the moral character of his own conduct. Conscience may be enlightened or unenlightened; and its use may be greatly perverted by false opinions. Its province is not to communicate any new truth, it is simply to express judgment, and to impart pleasure or inflict pain for a man’s own good or evil conduct. The apostle’s argument, does not require him to say that conscience revealed any truth, or any knowledge of duty, to the Gentiles, but that its actual exercise proved that they had a knowledge of the Law of God. Thus, it was a witness simply of that fact.

Bearing witness -
To bear witness is to furnish testimony, or proof. And the exercise of the conscience here showed or proved that they had a knowledge of the Law. The expression does not mean that the exercise of their conscience bore witness of anything to them, but that its exercise may be alleged as a proof that they were not without some knowledge of the Law.

And their thoughts -
The word “thoughts†(λογιÃμῶν logismÃ…Ân) means properly reasonings, or opinions, sentiments, etc. Its meaning here may be expressed by the word “reflections.†Their reflections on their own conduct would be attended with pain or pleasure. It differs from conscience, inasmuch as the decisions of conscience are instantaneous, and without any process of reasoning. This supposes subsequent reflection, and it means that such reflections would only deepen and confirm the decisions of conscience.

The mean while -
Margin, “Between themselves.†The rendering in the margin is more in accordance with the Greek. The expression sometimes means, in the mean time, or at the same time; and sometimes afterward, or subsequently. The Syriac and Latin Vulgate render this mutually. They seem to have understood this as affirming that the pagan among themselves, by their writings, accused or acquitted one another.

Accusing -
If the actions were evil.

Excusing -
That is, if their actions were good.

One another -
The margin renders this expression in connection with the adverb, translated “in the mean while,†“between themselves.†This view is also taken by many commentators, and this is its probable meaning. If so, it denotes the fact that in their reflections, or their reasonings, or discussions, they accused each other of crime, or acquitted one another; they showed that they had a law; that they acted on the supposition that they had. To show this was the design of the apostle; and there was no further proof of it needed than what he here adduced.
(1) They had a conscience, pronouncing on their own acts; and,
(2) Their reasonings, based on the supposition of some such common and acknowledged standard of accusing or acquitting, supposed the same thing. If, therefore, they condemned or acquitted themselves; if in these reasonings and reflections, they proceeded on the principle that they had some rule of right and wrong, then the proposition of the apostle was made out that it was right for God to judge them, and to destroy them; Rom_2:8-12.


 
Of course, one can find educated people who will disagree on the matter of what is going on in Romans 2:14-15. NT Wright, one of the world's most respected New Testament scholars argues that the Gentile who obeys the law in these verses can only be a believer:

And what about the law in all of this? Pulling the ‘law’ threads of the discussion
together into a quasi-systematic form, we might deduce the following:
1. The law, novmoV in Paul, is the Jewish law. Gentiles do not possess it by birth.
2. The law defines Israel over against the nations, and moreover indicates that Israel
is designed by the creator god as a light to the nations.
3. The law sets the standard by which Israel will be judged; Gentiles will be judged
without reference to it. However, there is one class of Gentiles who in a sense will be
judged with reference to Torah. This class consists of Gentile Christians; though by birth
they do not possess the Torah, they are now in the strange position of ‘doing the law’, since
the Spirit has written the ‘work of the Torah’ on their hearts
.
FoC: Do you not think it strange that Paul would use "law written on the heart" language to describe an unbeliever when the Biblical precedent is always that the law will be written on the heart at the time of covenant renewal?
 
Much yelling in here. But I will answer your question Dave with my opinion. We humans have free will to have faith or forsake God. This is evident in the presence of good and evil in the world. We live a life that is heavily influenced by free will. Chase money or live contently? Love others or be selfish? Continue to live in acknowledged sin or repent? These choices we make are influenced by free will and may or may not lead us down a righteous path or the path to death. Well, as close to righteousness as a human can get. I don't know the clear definition of a righteous human being. I'll have to spend some time researching.
What I know for sure is that God has given us a mind capable of knowledge, decision making and susceptible to mistakes. So we can learn and grow while passing the test of faith. This is why God asks us to choose life. He does not demand that we do. It is a process. Every work of ours is counted. This is what I get out of scripture. Reminds me of the Billy Joel song, Only the Good Die Young, because we are here to fulfill God's plans. Once that occurs, He decides when it's our time to leave. But while we are here we do have a choice to hear Him and fight the battle to be Holy or to repeatedly forsake Him and lose our place in the book of life. Our choices, of course, have already been recorded. He is aware, we are not.

If someone can elaborate or has a correction for me. I am all ears....

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.' (Deuteronomy 30:19)

'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.' (Joshua 25:15)
 
I was looking at free will in the Old Testament :

The Old Testament is a type and shadow for us according to 1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples,...... (the context it Israel in the wilderness) We find "types and shadows" throughout the Bible.

Here are a few that point to the fact that God made them do things, and choose things, so that types and shadows will be formed. They HAD to do certain things, or the types and shadows could not be formed !

Here are a few:

1) The name of Moses means "drawn from the water" This HAD to be his name, because Moses points to the man child , which is spiritually "drawn from the Water of the Word". The Egyptian princess gave him that name, but Gos placed it in her head.

2) Moses killed the Egyptian, because God wanted a type and shadow, that points to us killing our "Egyptian" (Old man/flesh) in Egypt (unsaved state)

3)Moses had to do this when he was 40 years old, because God had another 40 years for him planned in Median and then another 40 years in the desert before he died. 40 being the number of testing or trial. The whole life of Moses had to teach us about testing and trial, and it does.

4) Moses had to go to Median, and the priest in Median had to have seven daughters, so that God could type and shadow the man child and the church. Notice that shepherds also HAD to chase them away, so that God again could paint a picture of the modern church for us. Seven daughters (the seven churches)
Exo 2:16 Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock.
Exo 2:17 And the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock.

In our day, the seven daughters also come to the well of the Word and the shepherds of our day "chases them away". Most of the church has moved away from the pure water of the Word and God is sending a "Moses" in Rev 12 to restore His ways .

Moses thought he broke the two stone tablets by his own will, but he had to break them, because they point to the "breaking" (killing) of the two witnesses in our time , during the tribulation.The word used for the stones also means "witness" so two witnesses were given to Moses, just like two witnesses are given to the man child in Revelation and like the disciples went our "two by two" when Jesus sent them.

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

H5715
עדוּת
‛êdûth
ay-dooth'
Feminine of H5707; testimony: - testimony, witness.
 
The whole story of Joseph was planned and executed by God. The whole story is the story of Jesus and the story of of the end time tribulation. They had no free will in this, God needed the people to do exactly what He wanted , so that they would paint a faithful picture of something bigger, that was coming in the future.

I wrote the type and shadow explanation in another thread viewtopic.php?f=17&p=476920#p476920 none of it is coincidental, everything is from God. God needed the brothers of Joseph to sell him into slavery, God wanted Potiphar's to try and seduce Joseph, because that picture points to Jesus and the Harlot religious system of His day. The very system that condemned Jesus to death. The same picture also points to the Harlot in Revelation, that again will try and seduce "Joseph" and will persecute him.

Nothing is accidental.Nothing happened out of free will. God planned it all.
 
This is quoted from the work of a friend of mine. The names in the Bible , although "chosen freely" by the parents, turns out to be not a free will choice. When they are strung together, they prophecy about Jesus:

Meaning-of-Names Code from Adam to Jesus

When one chooses a name for their child in our culture the meaning of that name usually has little or no significance to the parent. But in bible days the meaning of a name was very important. Sometimes the bible itself informs the reader what a name means. Such renowned persons as Adam, Cain, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (and all 12 sons), Perez, Peleg and Jesus all have the meaning of their name explicitly given in the bible. Their names tell the story of why or how they were born.

Some students of the bible have wondered whether these names (with their collective meanings) might not be strung together in succession to tell some larger story. For if the meaning of these names do indeed tell a story then this would imply that God Himself has arranged these names providentially throughout the ages. This would help prove that the genealogy of Christ is of divine origin in spite of the tacit denials by such popular books as "The Da Vinci Code".

Already there have been attempts to string together the first 10 names in the bible from Adam to Noah. In general, this is what the first 10 names of the bible can read when each name is rendered one after the other in succession.

"A man is appointed, a man of sorrow. The Blessed God shall come down teaching that His death shall bring the grieving rest."

But the meaning of some of these first 10 names remain in doubt. And regrettably, this is true also of the next 10 names from Noah to Abraham. But all is not lost. Fortunately, the next 40 names after that, as recorded in Matthew's genealogy of Abraham to Jesus, are reasonably certain. And the meaning of these latter 40 names support the renderings of the first 20 names.

The following is the resulting prophecy that appears when all 60 names from Adam to Jesus are sequentially read.

The first two lines are the acrostic and the rest is the names code. They both go together.

I will forgive my enemies, having compassion, forgiving those who are but stubble and dust a second time."
"I will choose a circumcised people (i.e., Jews), even (many) peoples for myself (i.e., Gentiles)."

The God-Man will be brought forth (into this sin-cursed world) who will instruct unruly men {like Cain}. This man of God will be smitten to death, but his death will be in the will of God. People will give up hope as grief overwhelms them.

But, the God-Man is appointed to save, this man of sorrow. The Glory of God shall come down from heaven teaching men that by means of His death He shall comfort those who mourn.

{After the flood} The fame of the stronghold of Babylon, and sorrow, extend their borders like a plant beyond the place of division (at the Tower of Babel). -- But I will make Babylon fade away!
A friend also branches out {like Abraham}, snorting with fury! The Glorious Father --- the Father of many people --- laughs (triumphantly) as He outwits (his enemy)!

A mighty One {like Moses} struggles (in prayer)! A righteous Prince sees God! Praise bursts forth and makes an opening into a place surrounded by a high wall, there the people of the Prince (are safe) from {Balaam} the false prophet. They are clothed with strength!

For there exists a Servant, one beloved and peaceable. He will extend the territory of the people {like King David and Solomon}.

My Father is the Lord, the healer of him whom the Lord judged and then raised up {as He did David when he fled from Saul}. The Lord has taken hold (of me) and the Lord is strong! Mighty is the Lord! My strength and help are in the Lord! The Lord is perfect! I took hold of the strength of the Lord and it made (me) forget (my misery). (I am) the Master Builder whom the Lord God healed, whom the Lord raised up, and whom the Lord appointed, did uphold, and will uphold.

I have asked God about the ransomed of the Lord --- those exiled in Babylon. My Father is awesome! God will raise up a helper, the Just One will the Lord raise up! God is my praise! God is the One who helps. May the Gift of Jacob increase in greatness, for God is with us! --- the Messiah and Savior of those called out (of Babylon).


===============
The notes for the following, including an indepth look at each name, can be found at this link:

The article at this link is still being worked on... http://www.bible-codes.org/Names-Bible- ... y-Code.htm

Note from C :)
Please look at the link, because he gives the names and their meanings there and it is very clear to see that each names contributes to the prophecy.
 
Fembot said:
If someone can elaborate or has a correction for me. I am all ears....

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.' (Deuteronomy 30:19)

'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.' (Joshua 25:15)

Interestingly , the ones who "chose life" are also the ones that fulfill the types and shadows. Meaning, the "correct" people chose life, so that the type could be fulfilled. Eventually it was Joshua and Caleb's company that entered into the promised land. The rest died in the desert. Joshua is a type of Jesus, so he HAD to choose life and his name had to be Joshua (Jesus)
 
Cut to the chase (to the one who knows Wisdom):

Jesus was truly tempted (sorely tempted like as we): Was it possible for him to have sinned?
We know he never did. Just asking if it were possible. I suspect there will be two camps formed around this question. I might be the only one who stands alone. It isn't asked to encourage bickering but asked only to those who are capable of thought.

PS. Congratulations Cornelius:
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