[ Testimony ] How I left the faith

[Who Me]

Yes, I have read The Case for Christ, and the rebuttal, The Case Against the Case for Christ (a mouthful) by Robert Price. I considered Strobel's argument an utter failure. I've also read works by Richard Carrier. William Lane Craig is not reasonable. In a debate he was asked,

"Dr. Craig, for the sake of argument let’s pretend that a time machine gets built. You and I hop in it, and travel back to the day before Easter, 33 AD. We park it outside the tomb of Jesus. We wait. Easter morning rolls around, and nothing happens. We continue to wait. After several weeks of waiting, still nothing happens. There is no resurrection- Jesus is quietly rotting away in the tomb." Would Craig continue to believe? His reply was striking.

He said that he would still believe and that the internal witness of the holy spirit trumps any and all external evidence against Christianity.

At the beginning of his book, Craig wrote, "When a person refuses to come to Christ it is never just because of lack of evidence or because of intellectual difficulties: at root, he refuses to come because he willingly ignores and rejects the drawing of God’s Spirit on his heart. No one in the final analysis really fails to become a Christian because of lack of arguments; he fails to become a Christian because he loves darkness rather than light and wants nothing to do with God."

These are not the words of a reasonable man. They are the false, offensive words of a fundamentalist who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sorry for not replying earlier.

Two things.

Your arguments please that show Jesus did not rise from the dead.
I'm very interested, for if you can prove it didn't happen I would cease to be a Christian.

Of course if you can't, why aren't you a Christian?

2nd,
turn your timemachine argument around. You gone back in time, you've witnessed the resurrection.
Do you think this is a valid argumen?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Sorry for not replying earlier.

Two things.

Your arguments please that show Jesus did not rise from the dead.
I'm very interested, for if you can prove it didn't happen I would cease to be a Christian.

Of course if you can't, why aren't you a Christian?

2nd,
turn your timemachine argument around. You gone back in time, you've witnessed the resurrection.
Do you think this is a valid argumen?

1) Do you believe Muhammad ascended to heaven on an angelic horse? I'm sure you don't, but that's what the religion of Islam teaches. Now, this is an astounding claim. To believe it would require a lot of evidence. But there is none except the testimony of his followers, which we concede is not good enough.

It is the same for the resurrection. It's also an astounding claim, and so to believe it would require a lot of evidence. Yet, there is none except the testimony of his followers. I would submit to you that that is not good enough.

The default position ought to be to not believe astounding claims without evidence. There is no evidence of Jesus' resurrection except the biblical accounts, written at the earliest 35-40 years after his death, by people clearly biased in favor of Jesus - these are not good enough for us to upheave the laws of human biology and physics (2nd law of thermodynamics) to believe the resurrection.

A major reason why I don't believe is that there are and have been so many resurrection stories. They were all over the place at the time. I can pull out my resources and cite a lot of them if you'd like. There are many today, with the experiences where people claimed to go to heaven and then come back. Jesus' resurrection is just another one of these stories. There's nothing notable about it.

2) Since the event would still be absolutely extraordinary, I would question whether or not I'm hallucinating (especially if I was a believer who wanted to see Jesus rise). Hallucinations among religious devotees are far less extraordinary than resurrections. But either way, it would prove the event to no one but those who actually did go back in time. If William Lane Craig and whoever he was debating did go back to the tomb, and saw Jesus rise, it would only serve as evidence to them.

 

[for_his_glory]

One should never seek religion, but that of having a personal Spiritual relationship with Christ Jesus.

Have you ever played that childhood game where someone whispers something in your ear and you pass it on to the next person beside you and by the time it gets to the last person in line it’s altogether different then what was originally said? This is the same way in many Churches as how the word of God is being taught. The word was spoken by God for what he has already said and by the time it reaches our ears we are hearing something totally different then what he spoke in the first place. Has this become the deception we now find in religion with each one teaching a different gospel then that of the original?


Many people love to dictate to you what you can and cannot do according to what they have been taught through mans doctrines and carnal interpretations and this only brings one into a deceptive bondage that can damage our very soul and cause us to fall away from God because we cannot meet the standards of the church to be that perfect person they say we need to be before we can even accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and not only before, but even after.


Many churches go as far as shutting the doors on those who do not meet their criteria as they deem certain people as unworthy of God and misfits of society that need to clean themselves up first before they can come to church as they would be a bad influence on the youth of the church. I would say let the youth of the church be a good influence on those who need Jesus in their lives as Jesus said to come as you are and he will change anything that needs changing beginning with the condition of our hearts.
​

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The biggest deception Satan can use is to confuse the unlearned mind. God said his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. You forget me and my word and I will forget you and your children. This is a pretty profound statement that holds so much truth. This is why this world is in the shape it is in today with so many religions claiming they are the true religion and only they will go to heaven and those who do not conform to their ways will go to hell.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Hosea 4:8 they eat up the sin of my people and they set their heart on their iniquity.
Hosea 4:9 and there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.


Truth has now turned to deception of the carnal minds ways of thinking which produces mans interpretations, traditions of law and doctrine. Satan has such a foothold on religions and has side blinded all of us into believing whatever is taught behind the pulpit is truth because after all, they are the Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, etc. etc. and they should know what they are talking about because they are our teachers. Satan is pretty clever and the master of lies and deceit.


1Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil is seeking to whom he may devour.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:10 but the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

Satan has such a foothold on religion by using those unaware to teach his twisted word as Satan knows this word better than we ever could. Those who lack the knowledge of truth will perish along with the deceptive word they teach. Our English language produces many different definitions for a singular word that has caused a misinterpretation from the teachings of the original manuscripts that were written by the Disciples of Christ. The carnal mind can not perceive the teachings of the Holy Spirit and if we are not allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us then we will fall prey to those deceptions and be devoured by the wicked on who seeks to destroy our faith.​

 

[Who Me]

1) Do you believe Muhammad ascended to heaven on an angelic horse? I'm sure you don't, but that's what the religion of Islam teaches. Now, this is an astounding claim. To believe it would require a lot of evidence. But there is none except the testimony of his followers, which we concede is not good enough.

It is the same for the resurrection. It's also an astounding claim, and so to believe it would require a lot of evidence. Yet, there is none except the testimony of his followers. I would submit to you that that is not good enough.

The default position ought to be to not believe astounding claims without evidence. There is no evidence of Jesus' resurrection except the biblical accounts, written at the earliest 35-40 years after his death, by people clearly biased in favor of Jesus - these are not good enough for us to upheave the laws of human biology and physics (2nd law of thermodynamics) to believe the resurrection.

A major reason why I don't believe is that there are and have been so many resurrection stories. They were all over the place at the time. I can pull out my resources and cite a lot of them if you'd like. There are many today, with the experiences where people claimed to go to heaven and then come back. Jesus' resurrection is just another one of these stories. There's nothing notable about it.

2) Since the event would still be absolutely extraordinary, I would question whether or not I'm hallucinating (especially if I was a believer who wanted to see Jesus rise). Hallucinations among religious devotees are far less extraordinary than resurrections. But either way, it would prove the event to no one but those who actually did go back in time. If William Lane Craig and whoever he was debating did go back to the tomb, and saw Jesus rise, it would only serve as evidence to them.

So you reject the findings of atheist professional historians.


You are saying you do not be.ieve and no matter what evidence is offered will not believe.

 

[T. E. Smith]

So you reject the findings of atheist professional historians.


You are saying you do not be.ieve and no matter what evidence is offered will not believe.

atheist historians do not believe in the resurrection. I would believe this extraordinary claim if there was extraordinary evidence. But there is not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

OK interesting, that's not the Christianity I ever learned or seen in the Bible.

I agree with you there.

First of all I said I have no reason to believe in God. Thus I am a de facto atheist. I reject belief in God not because there are reasons to reject it, but because there is no reason to believe it.

Second, though, there are four arguments I have used:

• God is hidden - God refrains from telling humanity his plan. Why?

Where do you get that idea from? He’s told the world his plan and for millennia.

• There are many Christian and Muslim sects. Why, if God has a single plan and message for the world?

Because people don’t want to cooperate on various levels. Muslims, btw, do not worship the same deity. One can see that in their book and the culture of those who follow the book.

• • Defense: Free will. But this does not explain why followers of false religions get conflicting, inconsistent messages. Isn't God not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)? If God communicates us through our conscience, why do people reach so many different moral conclusions?

Easy. Because people don’t follow the guidance of their conscience.

• • The fact is that no god, past or present, speaks to, interacts with, or is involved at all in human affairs.

Nonsense. There are many people God speaks to. There are fewer who have trained themselves to listen.

• God does nothing - We are told that God is a loving god, but the truth is that he does nothing to stop injustices.

Nonsense again. But what exactly do you want him to do? Zap those who do injustice? The world would have few to no people eventually. You do not recognize Gods ways in human affairs.

• • Defense: God will make all right in the end. But 1) there is no evidence for it, 2) the world looks just like it would if God would not make all right, and 3) do the ends justify the means?

You would need to study history if you would want to see how the world has changed. In one way, the world used to be governed by dictators….every where. Many of these were selfishly ruthless. Now there is justice and freedom although diminishing in the west.

• No evidence - There is no evidence for God. This would take too long for me to document so I will just give two links: Goldstein's counterarguments to the arguments for the existence of God www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/authors/goldstein/36%20Arguments.pdf and an ex-youth pastor's extensive analysis https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f6ZewV_Ro5HLixACGE_wgJrnlFNVKVxTfuVALqARNEs/edit?hl=en_US

I will have to read and address that later but logically one cannot find a rational argument against his existence. Proving a being doesn’t exist is impossible.

• Inconsistent universe - the universe we are in now is inconsistent with most versions of theism, including Christianity.

People refuse the truth at different points and for a few reasons. The outcome is then different. Look at the Calvinist we’ve interacted with. Refuses to see what is in the scripture point blank. A blindness chosen by stubbornness. What is the problem? A refusal to receive a love of the truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

atheist historians do not believe in the resurrection. I would believe this extraordinary claim if there was extraordinary evidence. But there is not.

I suppose nothing short of the appearance of Jesus in your room eating with you proving he was in a resurrected body, not a spirit, would do.

I notice you don’t seem to know the difference between a person dying, that is the body king dead, and the spirit leaving a body fir a short time and returning. An after death experience and returning is not the resurrection. The body after that has different properties. In light of that, there aren’t a lot of resurrections happening as you stated.

 

[Edward]

atheist historians do not believe in the resurrection. I would believe this extraordinary claim if there was extraordinary evidence. But there is not.

Well, that's not how it works, Henrietta.

Romans 10:9-10 (NLT)
9 If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved.../

First you believe, first you trust Him. Then you are saved and He reveals Himself to you. You can't twist it to suit yourself. God set down the rules so good luck with that, Lol!

Didn't you watch Miracle on 34th Street? Seeing isn't believing, Believing is seeing.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Proving a being doesn’t exist is impossible.

I owe this to Bertrand Russell: Prove to me that an invisible, undetectable teapot does not regularly orbit the sun. You can't do it. Does that mean you should believe in it? Of course not.

Or (ala Carl Sagan): Prove to me that an invisible, undetectable dragon does not exist in my garage.

Well, that's not how it works, Henrietta.

Romans 10:9-10 (NLT)
9 If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved.../

First you believe, first you trust Him. Then you are saved and He reveals Himself to you. You can't twist it to suit yourself. God set down the rules so good luck with that, Lol!

Didn't you watch Miracle on 34th Street? Seeing isn't believing, Believing is seeing.

Yes, it is by faith we know God, not evidence. That's not good enough.

I suppose nothing short of the appearance of Jesus in your room eating with you proving he was in a resurrected body, not a spirit, would do.

I notice you don’t seem to know the difference between a person dying, that is the body king dead, and the spirit leaving a body fir a short time and returning. An after death experience and returning is not the resurrection. The body after that has different properties. In light of that, there aren’t a lot of resurrections happening as you stated.

Yeah, the after-death experiences is a bit of a stretch. Today, stories of actual resurrections is less common. But all that is relevant is the number of stories at Jesus' time, and there were numerous.

Now, If I saw that, I'd think I was hallucinating, but we'd need multiple independent witnesses, video of the event, video of the video, and a psychological evaluation of the participants. At the very least.

 

[Edward]

Yes, it is by faith we know God, not evidence. That's not good enough.

But you're complaining to the wrong guy. You need to take this arrogant complaint to God yourself!

You have too much ego, Not a humble bone in your body is there?

 

[T. E. Smith]

But you're complaining to the wrong guy. You need to take this arrogant complaint to God yourself!

You have too much ego, Not a humble bone in your body is there?

I already did take it to him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I owe this to Bertrand Russell: Prove to me that an invisible, undetectable teapot does not regularly orbit the sun. You can't do it. Does that mean you should believe in it? Of course not.

You have chosen an example that eddy’s the natural laws. It is in a word nonsense. God’s existence doesn’t defy any laws.

Or (ala Carl Sagan): Prove to me that an invisible, undetectable dragon does not exist in my garage.

Again, the example defies known laws. And what is more, no one in human history has seen evidence of such.

Yes, it is by faith we know God, not evidence. That's not good enough.

No, we believe from evidence which does not preclude faith.

Yeah, the after-death experiences is a bit of a stretch. Today, stories of actual resurrections is less common. But all that is relevant is the number of stories at Jesus' time, and there were numerous.

Find me one.

Now, If I saw that, I'd think I was hallucinating, but we'd need multiple independent witnesses, video of the event, video of the video, and a psychological evaluation of the participants. At the very least.

Ah, so not even a visit by the resurrected Christ will do. That’s fairly stubborn atheism.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Find me one.

I will list you many, and give them to you in a PM, once I can get back to the PC.

Ah, so not even a visit by the resurrected Christ will do. That’s fairly stubborn atheism.

My friend appeared to me after her death. It wasn't anything creepy, she was just like she was in life. She looked so real, sounded so real, but I never believed that she was there. I knew I was hallucinating, and the hallucinations eventually stopped.

A visit from her was not enough to convince me she was alive. And rightly so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I will list you many, and give them to you in a PM, once I can get back to the PC.

Resurrection with a body that does not die or decay or age. I suspect you’re thinking of NDE.

My friend appeared to me after her death. It wasn't anything creepy, she was just like she was in life. She looked so real, sounded so real, but I never believed that she was there. I knew I was hallucinating, and the hallucinations eventually stopped.

For sure not a resurrection. Jesus ate with them. He didn’t appear and disappear. And he appeared to over 100, not just one and not all were disciples.

A visit from her was not enough to convince me she was alive. And rightly so.

Because she wasn’t.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Resurrection with a body that does not die or decay or age. I suspect you’re thinking of NDE.

For sure not a resurrection. Jesus ate with them. He didn’t appear and disappear. And he appeared to over 100, not just one and not all were disciples.

Because she wasn’t.

Just a random example I remember (I still need to get more): Romulus, who was murdered and dismembered, but was raised to life and thought to be a god; his cult persisted for a long time.

My friend did not appear and disappear, she sat with me and we talked. Maybe sounds kinda creepy, or delusional, but that is what I experienced. There is a complete dearth of evidence that he appeared to 100. Why don't we have those accounts from 100 people? Why is the only reference of it one line?

Because she wasn’t.

Did she have any spiritual existence at all, like a soul without a body? No. Me seeing her did not mean her soul appeared to me.

Seeing the appearance/resurrection of a close friend who has died, does not serve as proof that they are back from the dead - especially when the person is a major religious figure to whom the followers are devoted, and especially when his followers did not expect him to die. For it to be proof, several other people would have to see her, it would have to be photographed/videoed, and we'd need a psychological analysis. This is basic evidential reasoning.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Just a random example I remember (I still need to get more): Romulus, who was murdered and dismembered, but was raised to life and thought to be a god; his cult persisted for a long time.

Myth

My friend did not appear and disappear, she sat with me and we talked. Maybe sounds kinda creepy, or delusional, but that is what I experienced. There is a complete dearth of evidence that he appeared to 100.

What evidence do you want? Thousands have seen him to date. You wouldn’t even believe he is alive if he appeared to you. I mean that’s the most solid evidence there is. Again, Jesus ate with them.

Why don't we have those accounts from 100 people? Why is the only reference of it one line?

You are unaware of the accounts of people who are alive who saw him.

Did she have any spiritual existence at all, like a soul without a body? No. Me seeing her did not mean her soul appeared to me.

Seeing the appearance/resurrection of a close friend who has died, does not serve as proof that they are back from the dead - especially when the person is a major religious figure to whom the followers are devoted, and especially when his followers did not expect him to die. For it to be proof, several other people would have to see her, it would have to be photographed/videoed, and we'd need a psychological analysis. This is basic evidential reasoning.

If she didn’t appear solidly, eat with you, stay permanently around or you saw her leave to somewhere, she wasn’t resurrected. Ghosts are not resurrected. The resurrected body is a physical body.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Myth

Yes, same as Jesus

You wouldn’t even believe he is alive if he appeared to you. I mean that’s the most solid evidence there is

No it is not, the chances that I am hallucinating are far more likely than that a man rose from the dead and became God and is now appearing to me. Like I said, we need multiple witnesses, photos, video, video of video, psychiatric evaluations.

You are unaware of the accounts of people who are alive who saw him.

That is not included in the 100. Other religious believers have supernatural experiences to fit with their own religion, though.

If she didn’t appear solidly, eat with you, stay permanently around or you saw her leave to somewhere, she wasn’t resurrected. Ghosts are not resurrected. The resurrected body is a physical body.

My point is that I was hallucinating, I was delusional, and there's no reason why a vision of Jesus eating and ascending into heaven would not also be delusional.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, same as Jesus

No it is not, the chances that I am hallucinating are far more likely than that a man rose from the dead and became God and is now appearing to me. Like I said, we need multiple witnesses, photos, video, video of video, psychiatric evaluations.

That is not included in the 100. Other religious believers have supernatural experiences to fit with their own religion, though.

My point is that I was hallucinating, I was delusional, and there's no reason why a vision of Jesus eating and ascending into heaven would not also be delusional.

You have set up a standard of hoops God must jump through in order for you to grant him your faith. I can tell you He will never do this out of love for you. You are the ringmaster and he needs to condescend to be the performing lion. This is very common in atheists. You aren’t the first. As long as you make demands, you will never see what others know is there.

 

[T. E. Smith]

You have set up a standard of hoops God must jump through in order for you to grant him your faith. I can tell you He will never do this out of love for you. You are the ringmaster and he needs to condescend to be the performing lion. This is very common in atheists. You aren’t the first. As long as you make demands, you will never see what others know is there.

well, I doubt that he's vain enough to be offended by those who doubt his existence.

 

[daninthelionsden]

It's strange how we perceive ourselves and in so doing ask of God.
Personally, I never needed to ask anyone what I wanted to be forgiven for. I knew what my sins were.
Of course any person who desires to have prayer answered must believe in God, or at least hope God exists.
I laid in bed one night sobbing. I was an addict. My mind was so convoluted I could barely hold a conversation. I'd heard about Jesus. I said, "Lord, if you're real, help me, and I'll follow you. I'm at the end of my rope." That was my prayer.
I had a small apartment and a junker car that got me to my job as a dishwasher. One night while leaving for work my car wouldn't start, so I started hitching. A car loaded with people picked me up and drove me the restaurant. Along the way, a girl named Mary asked if I believed in Jesus. Before they dropped me off, I gave Mary my address because she wanted to talk to me about Jesus.
When I got home, I was about to go inside, but looked over at my car. I got in, turnedthe ignition and it started right up.
It didn't occur to me that our Lord heard me. Mary came over the next day.

I love how you showed what He did for you. Christ is a relationship. He will not be summed up in puny human reasoning. Many want proof of God first. He is already here. He wants a relationship, not an argument. He summed it up in two little words ...."I AM". Now what are WE going to do about it?
He saved me from attempted murder, rape, assault, theft, drugs, alcohol, but most of all....He saved me from the Evil One and myself.