Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • We stand with Ukraine. Please consider supporting Ukraine through a qualified organization.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

[ Testimony ] How I left the faith

hawkman

Member
From
Alabama
Gender
Male
Messages
1,018
Joined
May 16, 2021
A very interesting story and one that I have heard before. When I read a story like this I always open myself to the promptings of the Holy Spirit for guidance and one thing is shouting out to me. That one thing is your mind.
The scripture is clear that the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. No ifs or buts. Plain and simple, it CANNOT full stop.
I agree completely with this .
In your attempt to find the truth, your mind is preventing you from doing so as it is reducing everything down to what you understand. But it will never reveal to you what you NEED to understand. And why is that? Because the natural man CANNOT discern the things of the spirit.
Yes ! The carnal man can not grasp all the truths of God .
Only the Holy Spirit can lead you into all truth and that truth is the one that sets you free. Your in bondage to your mind so you need the Holy Spirit to set you free from it. The scripture says that when the Holy Spirit comes he will lead you into ALL truth. Not some truth. ALL TRUTH.
Amen .
How do we get there? Simple. We surrender our minds to the Holy Spirit and allow him to speak to us. How do we know it is him speaking to us? Simple. You will know because he will speak to you in ways that you can understand.
And how great it is to have the Holy Spirit leading us .
I am an intellectual as I have one undergraduate university degree and two post graduate degrees and a degree in theology. I have a library of books written by Ph.Ds and university lecturers who are Christians so I am constantly reading. Despite this fact, I never accept anything without the imprimatur of the Holy Spirit as I know my mind is not the final authority. I submit my mind and thinking to the Holy Spirit and he leads me into ALL truth.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us . T. E. Smith you need to hear what is being said in this post .
 

Edward

2022 Supporter
From
USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
14,703
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
daninthelionsden hawkman Or instead of "entertaining atheists," how about "refuting atheists"? I am recruiting no one.

To the mind truly concerned about truth, objections to one's idea of what is true should not be a concern.

I think he had it right, entertaining atheists.

If you are so concerned about the truth, and we shouldn't have any concern about what you feel is truth...then why are you telling Christians here that they're wrong so much? Or posturing yourself as if, 'I have the real truth'...??

And why, oh lets go to PM to discuss the finer points of satanism? I'm not recruiting but let's go discuss it nonetheless...

No sale. I believe that you are outright lying.
 
Messages
3,082
Joined
Oct 20, 2016
daninthelionsden hawkman Or instead of "entertaining atheists," how about "refuting atheists"? I am recruiting no one.

To the mind truly concerned about truth, objections to one's idea of what is true should not be a concern.
Atheists believe in no spiritual absolute Truth, therefore, they believe in no moral absolutes. Atheists have no code of honor other than that which suits them. I have been on atheist sites before. Situational ethics seem to be the rule. Your words indicate no intention to recruit the spiritually ignorant. Your intentions could well be another matter. Atheists I have spoken with seem preferential to the Episcopalian denomination and for good reason.
 

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
From
USA
Gender
Female
Messages
1,297
Joined
Apr 21, 2022
andy pandy hawkman I see no evidence for those Christian claims that we must rely on the Spirit. Besides, Muslims claim this about their own faith.
I think he had it right, entertaining atheists.

If you are so concerned about the truth, and we shouldn't have any concern about what you feel is truth...then why are you telling Christians here that they're wrong so much? Or posturing yourself as if, 'I have the real truth'...??

And why, oh lets go to PM to discuss the finer points of satanism? I'm not recruiting but let's go discuss it nonetheless...

No sale. I believe that you are outright lying.
"no concern" not as "uncaring", but rather as not being offended. I can PM you with that, because there's no way I could ever convert you even if I wanted to. And you know that.
Atheists believe in no spiritual absolute Truth, therefore, they believe in no moral absolutes. Atheists have no code of honor other than that which suits them. I have been on atheist sites before. Situational ethics seem to be the rule. Your words indicate no intention to recruit the spiritually ignorant. Your intentions could well be another matter. Atheists I have spoken with seem preferential to the Episcopalian denomination and for good reason.
Quite a stereotype you have here. Just because morality is socially constructed does not mean it is not real. Furthermore, "no absolute truth" does not = "no absolute morality." Atheists tend to be much more liberal, like Episcopalians.
Boy, you got that right! We agree!
Then stop talking about it.
 

Edward

2022 Supporter
From
USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
14,703
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Then stop talking about it.

Then stop talking about satanism. This is a Christian site boy. For learning about the one true God. If you want to teach satanism, go to a satanist site. They who are ooking for such things would be more receptive to you.
 

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
From
USA
Gender
Female
Messages
1,297
Joined
Apr 21, 2022
Then stop talking about satanism. This is a Christian site boy. For learning about the one true God. If you want to teach satanism, go to a satanist site. They who are ooking for such things would be more receptive to you.
To date I have kept it out of the public forums, but if you'd rather me not post it in the unmoderated one, I will not.
 

Edward

2022 Supporter
From
USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
14,703
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
To date I have kept it out of the public forums, but if you'd rather me not post it in the unmoderated one, I will not.

well, I don't think it's very fair of you to hide it from the membership here. We need to now who you are. Where you're coming from and so forth.
 

hawkman

Member
From
Alabama
Gender
Male
Messages
1,018
Joined
May 16, 2021
You come here making a vain case against Christ and claim "community"? Why are you really here? To recruit? That has been attempted here before. Using politeness to try and undermine this CHRISTIAN site.

@daninthelionsden @hawkman Or instead of "entertaining atheists," how about "refuting atheists"? I am recruiting no one.

To the mind truly concerned about truth, objections to one's idea of what is true should not be a concern.
Lets look at where this thread is at it is in the

Prayer Requests, Praises & Testimonies​

I am not a mod but I am starting to think this thread should be somewhere else . Anyone share those thoughts with me ?
 

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
From
USA
Gender
Female
Messages
1,297
Joined
Apr 21, 2022
I am not a mod but I am starting to think this thread should be somewhere else . Anyone share those thoughts with me ?
It is my testimony, though the comments are maybe moving to something else.
 

hawkman

Member
From
Alabama
Gender
Male
Messages
1,018
Joined
May 16, 2021
@andy pandy @hawkman I see no evidence for those Christian claims that we must rely on the Spirit. Besides, Muslims claim this about their own faith.
I find evidence in this verse .
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
 

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
From
USA
Gender
Female
Messages
1,297
Joined
Apr 21, 2022
This is not testimony. It is anti-testimony.
As I said, "My point in posting this is not to disparage believers, but to share my personal story and to help people understand the thought process of at least one person who has de-converted." I am by no means against Christian testimonies.
 

christian1724

2022 Supporter
From
Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
307
Joined
Jul 19, 2021
daninthelionsden -
Atheists believe in no spiritual absolute Truth, therefore, they believe in no moral absolutes. Atheists have no code of honor other than that which suits them. I have been on atheist sites before. Situational ethics seem to be the rule. Your words indicate no intention to recruit the spiritually ignorant. Your intentions could well be another matter. Atheists I have spoken with seem preferential to the Episcopalian denomination and for good reason.
Quite a stereotype you have here. Just because morality is socially constructed does not mean it is not real. Furthermore, "no absolute truth" does not = "no absolute morality." Atheists tend to be much more liberal, like Episcopalians.
You can not have any absolutes without absolute reliability. You've thrown me on that one. Maybe I've misunderstood what you were getting at?

As I said, "My point in posting this is not to disparage believers, but to share my personal story and to help people understand the thought process of at least one person who has de-converted." I am by no means against Christian testimonies.
I, for one, am interested in the mechanisms for a person's departure from 'the faith' as some call it. ("Departure from 'the faith"?, man, is that an oxymoron or what?). I am a firm believer that nothing is outside of the will of God. ('Certain events, while displeasing/angering, are yet within His tolerance according to His wisdom, love, mercy and patience', or in other words, according to His will.). Your presence here might destabilize some already failing foundations. Maybe these faults need to be exposed. I'm not in a position to say.

In order for this discussion to have any value to at least some of those who are involved in it, those persons need to be seeking Truth. That's why several are curios of your purpose here. What is it that you are hoping to accomplish here?

Hopefully you are seeking Truth here (as we are). Otherwise, all this is merely vanity.
 

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
From
USA
Gender
Female
Messages
1,297
Joined
Apr 21, 2022
You can not have any absolutes without absolute reliability. You've thrown me on that one. Maybe I've misunderstood what you were getting at?
It is absolutely true that there is no absolute morality. If that sounds self-contradictory it is because you are equating truth and morality. In fact, there are many truths with no moral involvement.
I, for one, am interested in the mechanisms for a person's departure from 'the faith' as some call it.
1) Learning about other religions
2) Observing the world
3) Reading the Bible
4) Reading other books, philosophical or scientific
5) Self-reflection and validation

Those were mine, at any rate.
Hopefully you are seeking Truth here (as we are).
I am, but also to learn more about the institutes of the Christian religion.
 

christian1724

2022 Supporter
From
Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
307
Joined
Jul 19, 2021
It is absolutely true that there is no absolute morality. If that sounds self-contradictory it is because you are equating truth and morality. In fact, there are many truths with no moral involvement.
Your equation was that 'absolute morality' is independent of Truth.
Furthermore, "no absolute truth" does not = "no absolute morality." Atheists tend to be much more liberal, like Episcopalians.

If there is no reliability then there is no sanity, only confusion. What's hard about that? I don't mind waiting for a well thought out response.
 

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
From
USA
Gender
Female
Messages
1,297
Joined
Apr 21, 2022
Your equation was that 'absolute morality' is independent of Truth.

If there is no reliability then there is no sanity, only confusion. What's hard about that? I don't mind waiting for a well thought out response.
A favorite modern philosopher of mine, Jonathan Pearce, expounded a bit on it in two parts.

 

christian1724

2022 Supporter
From
Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
307
Joined
Jul 19, 2021
A favorite modern philosopher of mine, Jonathan Pearce, expounded a bit on it in two parts.

That's fine. One day, with more time, I may read more about his thoughts. A favorite philosopher is kind of like a favorite band. What I like to listen though doesn't represent what I hold to be True/reliable.

So for now, I'd like get back to your equation: "no absolute truth" does not = "no absolute morality.".
We agreed previously on the concept of Truth.
Also, we agree that Truth exists and that it is objective.

So it raised a red flag, so to speak, when you proposed your equation.
I'm not making, nor have I made any argument for morality (absolute or otherwise) other than to say that morality is not independent of Truth as you would have it. Without reliability, any rule or proposal or even discussion,... is in vain (including one pertaining to morality). Is that not True?
 
Top