How is a biblical conflict solved?

[donadams]

So you do not see God's grace through faith alone to all who will only believe in His only begotten Son Christ Jesus in whom was before the foundation of the world being that of God's free gift to the world in whom we have salvation through His finished works on the cross and now sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.

This is salvation 101.

The verse itself says no:
First it refers to redemption not salvation
Second it says “not of yourselves” so it’s not your faith or your salvation
Nowhere does scripture say “faith alone”.
I’m not here to oppose you, only to find biblical faith

 

[donadams]

That is correct, Justification and salvation are not identical interchangeable terms. But what you are failing to realize is the justified person is saved. Your doctrine errs by saying the justified person then works in order to become a saved person. Catholicism is exactly the works gospel condemned in scripture. It is a religion for unbelievers who don't know better.

Scripture condemns works alone apart from Christ and grace

1 Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.

This is just more ignorance of the early church on display. Salvation is by faith in the blood of Christ, not by what you think about various creeds and beliefs of a church, especially the Catholic church. This works salvation attitude of the Catholic church is exactly why Protestants need to distance themselves from them and shun them.

The only thing that counts is what you think and believe about the blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sin, not about the mother of Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nowhere does scripture say “faith alone”.

It's 'righteousness apart from works' Romans 4:6. Not 'faith alone'.

Most Protestants know about and agree with James' 'faith alone' teaching for what he says it actually means (James 2:24, 18). You keep confusing it with 'righteousness apart from works' in Romans 4:6.

Justification (the imputation of GOD'S righteousness) is given entirely on the basis of faith in the blood of Christ apart from the performance of righteousness deeds and rituals.

 

[donadams]

Maybe he's a new poster and hasn't quite figured it out....
I just told him exactly the same thing.

donadams you should make your posts shorter and try to concentrate and focus on what idea at a time.
(your all over the place!).

I think we're trying to help you to make the most of your posts...
so much gets lost because they're so long and cover such a wide range of topics in each post.
It's difficult to reply to you....

I know I have the same problem with tenchi how can we share appropriate info sometimes it’s overwhelming thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture condemns works alone apart from Christ and grace

Yes, it does, but not in regard to the imputation of GOD'S righteousness.

Faith in the blood all by itself apart from works is how a person is made righteous with the righteousness of GOD.

If you believe that God makes you righteous in exchange for successful completion of repeated righteous deeds and rituals then you believe another gospel. A self righteous works gospel of merit. One that can not save you.

 

[GodsGrace]

The word 'form' in this passage is the Greek word 'morphe':

6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Philippians 2:6-7

It's the same Greek word used in this verse:

12After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them as they walked along in the country.
Mark 16:12

It means to be in a different form. A change of form, not the addition of another form. Jesus changed his form when he came from heaven. Just as he changed his form when he talked to the disciples on the road to Emmaus. Same Jesus, different form.

Jethro,
This is deep stuff and I really don't feel qualified to get too much into it.
I did check a few different bibles and only the NASB uses the word FORM
in PHILIPPIANS 2:6-7

The other versions speak more of a privledge, and Jesus humbling Himself and appearing in human FORM,,,
but a form just holds what's inside, no? Inside is God in the flesh.

I think the following 2 are closer to what it means...

Here's the NLT
6Though he was God,a
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slavec
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
NIV
6Who, being in very nature a God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature b of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

 

[GodsGrace]

No it doesn't.
God has always existed, so can't have anyone they are gendered from.
Jesus however, was conceived 2000 some years ago.
He is no longer the Word that was with God and was God.
Mary was His mother.

What do you mean?
When Jesus came to earth the 2nd Person of the Trinity was missing in heaven??

 

[GodsGrace]

What scripture(s) do you use to show that Jesus was God?

2

You don't believe Jesus is God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Is Jesus His own Father?

Can't we respect and honor her without idolizing her?
Your capital "M" in "mother" is worrisome.

You lost me at the bakery.
I don't know what you're saying anymore.

Luke says THE SPIRIT will come over Mary.
That's not the 2nd Person.

Capital M.
Yes, because it's becoming bothersome how lowly we want Mary to be.
Maybe Catholics "idolize" her too much,
but we idolize her too little.

 

[Mungo]

This thread is way of topic which to remind everyone is "How is a biblical conflict solved?"

It has become a good example of how Biblical conflicts are NOT solved.

Perhaps it should be closed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but nothing more. When she and Jesus' brothers came to talk with Him, what was His reply?

Matthew 12:46-50, "While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers were standing outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” But to the one who had told him this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Clearly Mary was not regarded by Jesus as being anyone special. She was his mother who raised Him and had some influence on Him (e.g. the wedding at Cana) but exalting her beyond that is not scriptural.

Oh my gosh Jaybo.
Jesus honored His mother and father just as He taught us to do.
He was ministering when He stated what you posted...
We must love God and do His will MORE than loving anyone on earth.
Our bond as Christians should be more than our bond in family.
Jesus was saying those that follow Him are His family, as well we are.
We are the Body of Christ - He is the head.

 

[donadams]

Jesus was divine BEFORE (during and after) the time He inhabited the body---
How could it be BEFORE?

He always existed as the Word.
Otherwise the JWs are right in that Jesus was created.


The Catholics that decided that Mary was the Mother of God lived just after Jesus died.
It's not a modern invention.

Mary, the mother of the New Adam

Mary transmitted to Christ the entire human reality of Adam, so that he could become the new Adam, the Son of man, the « summary» of all men from the first.

Cf. IRENAEUS OF LYONS, Demonstration of the Apostolic Predication § 32
As a true mother, Mary guarantees that God assumed everything in us up to becoming "Son of man", so we are entirely assumed and entirely saved. As a divinely fecund Virgin, Mary guarantees that it was God who was born of her and that he really saves: with his divine power.

(cf. IRENAEUS OF LYONS, Against Heresies V, 19,1)

Irenaeus​

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus​

“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).
source: https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-mother-of-god


In looking up the above, I also came across the idea that if we do not accept that Mary is the Mother of God
it brings up the heresy of nestoreanism...Jesus is divided into two separate natures:
human and divine

It was decided at about the same time when the Trinity was being discussed, that Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine.

Next thing you know, we'll be debating His divinity...

Well done
Note well the new covenant is a reformation of the mosaic covenant heb 9:10 so there are many similarities between the two

Like the ark of the covenant

Ex 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


2 Sam 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.

Lk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;


2 Sam 6:3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.

4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.

5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.

2 Sam 6:16 And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord;

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


2 Sam 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?

Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


2 Sam 6:11 And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.

Lk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.


2 Sam 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The Lord hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied…

 

[donadams]

Ark of the new covenant!
The dwelling place of God!
God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
And cannot be used for any common purpose!
In the ark was the word of God!
In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
In the ark was the mana!
In Mary was the bread come down from heaven! Jn 6
Bethlehem means house of bread!

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (Isa 7:14) and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Holy mother of God!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Biblical principle:
Anything Consecrated to God must be pure and used only for the purpose of serving God!

See exodus: the ark of the covenant, everything used in the temple etc.

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

So Joseph cannot enter in where the Holy Spirit has entered!

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Mary and her virginity are Consecrated to God in immaculate purity, the pure gold of divine love!

Mary was the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone!


Can a man use the ark of the covenant for a common dinner table?

Then Joseph can in no any way use Mary for a common wife!

No mere man may enter where God conceived! Ez 44:2

Mary would not consent to God’s will and to receive the exalted dignity of the mother of God if it means violating her vow of perpetual virginity then why simply consent relations with Joseph!

That’s impossible!

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

(This verse imply’s that Mary is consecrated to God alone! and has taken a vow of perpetual virginity! She was s willing to refuse even the exalted dignity of mother of God, the mother of our savior, and mother of all Christians if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

She consented to our salvation when she realized it would not violate her vow of perpetual virginity!




Mary was the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone!


A consecrated virgin must be pure, immaculate, and permanent!

All for God!

Mary cos of Her being created by God immaculate (Lk 1:49) has always enjoyed the beatific vision of God in heaven, (Matt 5:8) Her intense, pure, and perfect love of God caused Her to make a sacrifice of her entire being and life to God Forever!
Lk 1:46

 

[GodsGrace]

Ark of the new covenant!
The dwelling place of God!
God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
And cannot be used for any common purpose!
In the ark was the word of God!
In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
In the ark was the mana!
In Mary was the bread come down from heaven! Jn 6
Bethlehem means house of bread!

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (Isa 7:14) and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Holy mother of God!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Biblical principle:
Anything Consecrated to God must be pure and used only for the purpose of serving God!

See exodus: the ark of the covenant, everything used in the temple etc.

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

So Joseph cannot enter in where the Holy Spirit has entered!

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Mary and her virginity are Consecrated to God in immaculate purity, the pure gold of divine love!

Mary was the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone!


Can a man use the ark of the covenant for a common dinner table?

Then Joseph can in no any way use Mary for a common wife!

No mere man may enter where God conceived! Ez 44:2

Mary would not consent to God’s will and to receive the exalted dignity of the mother of God if it means violating her vow of perpetual virginity then why simply consent relations with Joseph!

That’s impossible!

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

(This verse imply’s that Mary is consecrated to God alone! and has taken a vow of perpetual virginity! She was s willing to refuse even the exalted dignity of mother of God, the mother of our savior, and mother of all Christians if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

She consented to our salvation when she realized it would not violate her vow of perpetual virginity!




Mary was the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone!


A consecrated virgin must be pure, immaculate, and permanent!

All for God!

Mary cos of Her being created by God immaculate (Lk 1:49) has always enjoyed the beatific vision of God in heaven, (Matt 5:8) Her intense, pure, and perfect love of God caused Her to make a sacrifice of her entire being and life to God Forever!
Lk 1:46

You have good notes.

Both posts are very beautiful.
Mary was indeed the New Ark of the Covenant.
She held in her the living 10 commandments,
and the living manna sent from heaven, the bread that gives life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well done
Note well the new covenant is a reformation of the mosaic covenant heb 9:10 so there are many similarities between the two

Like the ark of the covenant

Ex 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


2 Sam 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.

Lk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;


2 Sam 6:3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.

4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.

5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.

2 Sam 6:16 And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord;

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


2 Sam 6:9 And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?

Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


2 Sam 6:11 And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.

Lk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.


2 Sam 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The Lord hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied…

I wanted to comment on the Covenants.
You're well-studied.

I don't know how many times I've read that The OC is abolished.
You've correctly stated that it was REFORMED.

No covenant is abolished, it is only changed is some way...made better or made between different parties, etc.
I'd say that not even the Edenic Covenant is abolished because God still expects us to obey Him.

 

[jaybo]

You have good notes.

Both posts are very beautiful.
Mary was indeed the New Ark of the Covenant.
She held in her the living 10 commandments,
and the living manna sent from heaven, the bread that gives life.

Unscriptural.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unscriptural.

He posted the verses.
It's foreshadowing.
It's theological understanding of the relationship between the OT and NT.

 

[donadams]

But can you refute it?

I showed you John 2:20-27 says the Holy Spirit is the believer's discerner of truth:

20You, however, have an anointing* from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
27And as for you, the anointing* you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing* teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.
1 John 2:20,27

*anointing

But you say it's the literal teachings of the Catholic church that the believer relies on to discern what is truth.

Yes after receiving the faith and baptism and the sacrament of confirmation we have an sacramental unction / anointing from the Holy Spirit but that does not refute the command of Christ to his church his apostles to teach all men Matt 28:19 lk 1:4 acts 8:31 etc. the church has a duty to proclaim the truth and to condemn errors. Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes after receiving the faith and baptism and the sacrament of confirmation we have an sacramental unction / anointing from the Holy Spirit but that does not refute the command of Christ to his church his apostles to teach all men Matt 28:19 lk 1:4 acts 8:31 etc. the church has a duty to proclaim the truth and to condemn errors. Thanks

Also, tell Jethro Bodine that this is why we have 30,000 denominations.
Unless the figure went up again.
LOL

Oh.
And how come the Holy Spirit doesn't teach everyone the same doctrines?