how many people will take the mark of beast . I believe no one will take it

[Obadiah]

You know I just spent a few days in the mountains alone and away from the internet, cell phone, and so many of the distractions that keep me away from meditating on the Lord. One of the books (letters?) I read was 1 Timothy where the verse about the love of money is found. (1 Tim 6:10 ESV, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.")

I'm lucky right now in that I have a paying job that in reality is as much of a "ministry" as any official "ministry" job I've ever had. Sure, I'm not making a lot, but then my living expenses aren't that high either. But it's actually part of my job to take people to church, give "Christian counseling" provide fellowship and prayer, as well as assist with many other things in life. I thought of this discussion when I ran across that passage in the letter to Timothy and spent some time looking into it and I'm convinced (at least so far) that even if my job wasn't the way it is, it's still ok not only to work for money, but even to "love" doing it!

The passage really doesn't seem to be saying that we shouldn't work for money at all or even that we shouldn't "love" having a paying job and all that comes from that. As has been pointed out, it's pretty much impossible to live in any civilized society in this century without using money. And the only way to get money is to either work for it or depend on someone else to give it to us for nothing. Having someone always give it to us for nothing isn't Biblical either. (1 Thess 3:10b, ESV, "If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.") When you look at the verse in it's context (1 Tim 6:10) it's not saying at all that we shouldn't work, it's only saying that getting rich shouldn't be our ultimate priority. In this entire section Paul is saying to Timothy "...if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. [where does food and clothing come from if not bought with money earned in a paying job?] But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs." (1 Tim 6:8-10, ESV)

See, it's not having a paying job, or even "loving" the fact that you have a paying job and are able to buy things with your pay that is the problem. It's that overwhelming desire to "be rich" rather than to be content with what God has given you that is the problem Paul is talking about here. Even in verse 10 where he condemns the "love of money", the word used for love of money is not one of the Greek words traditionally translated as love in English. The word is "philarguria" which actually means "avarice" (extreme greed for wealth or material gain.) We can "love" many kinds of things and that's fine with God. We are never told (when taken in proper context of the entirety of scripture) to only love God, we are only told not to love anything else more than we love God. So it's OK and even proper to have a job and love making money so you can buy the things you need, pay your bills, and not have to mooch off of those who do have paying jobs. All we are being told here is to not allow ourselves to develop a strong desire to get rich which overshadows our desire to follow God and be his disciples and ministers. There's a lot of middle ground between the extremes of avarice and voluntary poverty, and it's in that middle ground where Paul is telling us to be.

 

[JCitoL]

Hi JCitoL. No, in your previous post you told me, "it's obvius". In the post before that you didn't answer, either. I've read them very carefully because I'm interested in the answer.

why do you try lying?!, here is the rest of that post:

in short, the purpose of the true God and the true Saints is to provide all human and other besouled beings with abundant life lasting until the end of eternity so that they could not suffer any more, and the true Lord God created this world as a paradise(good place for living), but then the devil have begun to defile it by its relevant spiritual workers/servants among the humans, so do you now understand that there is nothing (more) important as opposed to (the work on) the overall salvation in the true Lord God, at least as to what the true use of faith is?!, because the true Lord God created the world as a paradise(place for good life), but the prideful spiritual workers have turned it into a hell, for that reason the Son of God, Jesus Christ, came to destroy the works of satan so that all human and other besouled beings might be completely and permanently saved inheriting abundant life that lasts forever, therefore all judgments against(to the detriment of) the humans are in principle undesirable for the true Lord God, especially if people are judged badly only because they naturally have/consume ordinary goods/consumptions

Romans 14:19-23 "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things(i.e. all material things) indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence(i.e. causing evil/harm to another by its eating). It is good neither to eat flesh(i.e. neither to exercise/practice idolatry), nor to drink wine(i.e. nor occultism), nor(i.e. nor to do) any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth(i.e. the believer/worshiper/cleric who does not condemn itself in anything that it uses). And he that doubteth is damned if he eat(i.e. and that who errs as to what the truth is, damns itself if it exercises/practices the faith so), because he eateth not of faith(i.e. because the same exercises/practices the faith wrong): for whatsoever is not of faith(i.e. for every belief/persuasion/tradition in this regard that doesn't conform with the right faith) is sin."

Blessings

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller. You've not answered the question. Which part of the Revelation is addressed to the Devil and his messengers?

There is no serious observation of Revelation without these parties, the devil and his messengers, on the table. Satan and his works are addressed to every church of Rev. 2-3. Satan deceived/deceives the whole world. Rev. 12:9. Mystery Babylon is "the habitation of devils." Rev. 18:2. And this, merely a surface glance.

In short, there is no serious christian eschatology performed without these parties in view "and" the end time views and sequences all revolve around the "end" of these parties. Likewise pictured in many other places in the entire Bible.

At least half of the entirety of the Bible deals with these parties. The difficulty is "they" are not observable, so students are immediately led to discount them, almost entirely. However their patterns of operations and identifying "their works" is also readily observable throughout the entirety of the scriptures.

To not come into grips with these matters of the devil and his messengers will automatically make any studies of end times or any theological undertaking, utterly futile -> because a great deal of scriptures deals with "them." The additional difficulty is that these parties are in fact overlapped within the flesh of all mankind. All have sin, have sinned, and sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Even in matters of Gods law, devils are moved to resist, and do so, within man. Mark 4:15 as an easy example. All matters of spiritual blindness are also intimately linked to the "god of this world." 2 Cor. 4:4, Romans 11:8, again, easy examples.

Paul deals with this exact matter at great lengths in all of his own scripture, even showing his own flesh inhabited by a messenger of Satan, 2 Cor. 12:7, being the chief of sinners, 1 Tim. 1:15, and temptations and lusts abiding within his own flesh and mind. Romans 7:7-13, Gal. 4:14, Romans 7:17-21 and many many more.

The very foundation of the need for Gods Grace and Mercy through Jesus Christ abides on this foundation, of our needs for same, as to the source of the problems of the whole world.

So, yeah, miss these matters from scripture and miss it all in the process.

Needless to say I have nearly zero respect for any forms of christian theology, and particularly christian eschatology, that do not encompass this side of Gods Ledgers. And it is exactly on this same ground that most of same is conspicuously missing, which is a minor testimony to the spirit of disobedience that is still operating not only within man, but also within believers themselves, causing such blindness. Eph. 2:2

Bring these parties rightfully into view and not only Revelation, but the entirety of the scriptures will unfold it's meanings in dramatic ways. Every prophet will show their own "woe is me" personal condition, exactly on this ground, because they have been so led to see, by God.

And, ultimately, I respect Gods call on this matter as most will not and can not come into grips with these subjects because it is real and personal to every readers/believer/person.

No one can overcome what they can not perceive for themselves.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Who is "him?"

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Which, above fwiw, transpired in the opening of the Bible, in Genesis, where the old serpent, the devil, the deceiver, the tempter, makes his first appearance, "in or on" earth. And that was in or within both Adam and Eve, and every person who has ever lived since, saved for God in Christ, Himself.

 

[Corn Pop]

I have to laugh at many end time jokers, they seriously are funny i watch them like comedians.

One joker was so delusional he seen the dow drop to 0.4666 points and was claiming a sign of the end and the beast. Lol.

Some people are so hilarious and the best part is there so serious that makes it all the more enjoyable humour.

 

[smaller]

I have to laugh at many end time jokers, they seriously are funny i watch them like comedians.

One joker was so delusional he seen the dow drop to 0.4666 points and was claiming a sign of the end and the beast. Lol.

Some people are so hilarious and the best part is there so serious that makes it all the more enjoyable humour.

Many believers read Revelation and see fear and death and all kinds of horrors.

I see oppositely. Revelation is the "unveiling" or the "revealing" of Christ within us. This also means, simultaneously, the destruction of our adversaries, the devil and his messengers.

The kingdom does not come by observations, because Christ in unveiled from our insides, out. He Is Now, in our temple, our body, collectively. Yet not fully unveiled.

The storms of destruction i.e. all the supposedly dire ills that some think they see are actually the opposite. God destroys our enemies by Grace, Forgiveness, and Mercy, all abundantly flowing out from us.

The destruction matters have nothing to do with the "external" earth or any visible entities. It has everything to do with God in Christ, Himself, changing, at the end, our own vile bodies to be like His and Him. So that, by definition, places destruction upon us, as to our own vile body, changed by Eternal Light, Life and Love.

 

[JCitoL]

I have to laugh at many end time jokers, they seriously are funny i watch them like comedians.

One joker was so delusional he seen the dow drop to 0.4666 points and was claiming a sign of the end and the beast. Lol.

Some people are so hilarious and the best part is there so serious that makes it all the more enjoyable humour.

do you think you cannot and will not be enslaved by the "beast" if you only renounce (the) dow jones and money in general?!, because it is written for example how all israel had been enslaved by the idolatry of the clerics/worshipers of baal for decades, and how this was a greatest problem for God and the true prophets(1 Kings 16:31 - 2 Kings 10:28), while money is not seen to be a greater problem in that biblical passage, and had not ahab made an image of baal worship like the "other beast" that made an image of the "first beast" worship (Revelation 13:11-18)?!

Blessings

 

[john darling]

and I'm convinced (at least so far) that even if my job wasn't the way it is, it's still ok not only to work for money, but even to "love" doing it!

Hi Obadiah. You say you are convinced that it's okay to love working for money. I'm guessing you don't see any difference between "the love of money" and "love working for money" but I'd seriously question why that is. You put the word "love" in quotes. Why? Can you be more clear about what you're trying to say?

Anyway, there is a large variety of verses in the NT dealing with our attitudes towards money. If 1 Timothy 6:10 were the only verse in the NT dealing with greed then I'd be inclined to put much less faith in a teaching against using our lives to get money. Any doctrine built one or even two verses needs to be questioned.

But when you've got dozens of verses from several witnesses (one of them being the creator of the universe) it's wise to take them all into account when it comes to the root of all evil.

For example, your comments about it being good to love working for money. How do you compare that to this teaching from Jesus; "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" Matthew 6:24.

Keep in mind that mammon is a word used to describe money and the things money can buy.

And don't forget the context of the topic; the Mark of the Beast. It says we won't be able to buy or sell without taking the Mark. Buy and sell. A pretty clear link to our dependence on materialism. Look at how people have argued on this forum about how money makes life better and even that it's okay to love working for money. they say we cannot live without money. Isn't that exactly what the AC is depending on by making his Mark a symbol for buying and selling?

 

[john darling]

I believe there is NOTHING that can separate us from the Love of God in Christ. The monetary system can tattoo me til they're blue in the face. It will NOT move or remove Christ from within my heart.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about this comment from you, smaller. You're basically saying that it doesn't even matter if people take the Mark, because "nothing can separate us from the love God in Christ". This basically makes the prophecy worthless as a warning of any kind.

It's like saying Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego could have bowed to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar because nothing can separate them from the love of God, so long as they believe "in their heart" they they are really bowing to God rather than the statue. (Daniel 3)

 

[Obadiah]

and I'm convinced (at least so far) that even if my job wasn't the way it is, it's still ok not only to work for money, but even to "love" doing it!

Hi Obadiah. You say you are convinced that it's okay to love working for money. I'm guessing you don't see any difference between "the love of money" and "love working for money" but I'd seriously question why that is. You put the word "love" in quotes. Why? Can you be more clear about what you're trying to say?

Anyway, there is a large variety of verses in the NT dealing with our attitudes towards money. If 1 Timothy 6:10 were the only verse in the NT dealing with greed then I'd be inclined to put much less faith in a teaching against using our lives to get money. Any doctrine built one or even two verses needs to be questioned.

But when you've got dozens of verses from several witnesses (one of them being the creator of the universe) it's wise to take them all into account when it comes to the root of all evil.

For example, your comments about it being good to love working for money. How do you compare that to this teaching from Jesus; "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" Matthew 6:24.

Keep in mind that mammon is a word used to describe money and the things money can buy.

And don't forget the context of the topic; the Mark of the Beast. It says we won't be able to buy or sell without taking the Mark. Buy and sell. A pretty clear link to our dependence on materialism. Look at how people have argued on this forum about how money makes life better and even that it's okay to love working for money. they say we cannot live without money. Isn't that exactly what the AC is depending on by making his Mark a symbol for buying and selling?

Had you read my entire post instead of the one short phrase you quote here, and read it with an open mind, you would have seen that all you say or ask here was already addressed in my post.

 

[john darling]

Had you read my entire post instead of the one short phrase you quote here, and read it with an open mind, you would have seen that all you say or ask here was already addressed in my post.

Hi Obadiah. I'm pretty sure I do have an open mind and I re-read your post quite carefully. You didn't address what Jesus said about the two masters (i.e. God and money). So, no, you've not addressed the point I made based on Matthew 6:24. Would you be okay to do that now?

In particular I'm making a comparison between this sentence from your post, "The passage really doesn't seem to be saying that we shouldn't work for money at all or even that we shouldn't "love" having a paying job and all that comes from that".

The "all that comes from that" part would be money and the things money can buy. This is exactly the issue Jesus addressed when he said, "you can't work for God and mammon (money and the things money can buy" without cheating on one or the other. You will love one and hate the other".

Also, since this is a Mark of the Beast thread, it would be good if you could answer the issue I raised with you about the buying/selling aspect of the Mark and how that relates to our dependence on money. To me, there is a very clear connection between our dependence on money and the AC choosing to use buying/selling as his mark of loyalty.

 

[smaller]

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about this comment from you, smaller. You're basically saying that it doesn't even matter if people take the Mark, because "nothing can separate us from the love God in Christ". This basically makes the prophecy worthless as a warning of any kind.

What I've always said is such conversations, by need, must extend to the devil and his messengers. Your sight is fleshly and external. Spiritual matters don't work in that direction. There isn't going to be a visible mark just as we can't see physically, the Seal put upon us in Christ.

It's like saying Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego could have bowed to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar because nothing can separate them from the love of God, so long as they believe "in their heart" they they are really bowing to God rather than the statue. (Daniel 3)

I take for granted that we have been given external fleshly pictures in the O.T. in correlations to spiritual matters to come in the N.T. And could and have cited many many examples.

The buying and selling of people transpires, unseen. We are "sold" into sin, being an example. We have had a "redemption price" paid, by His Blood. But none of this is necessarily perceived in the senses you are trying to make the mark fit into, as some kind of worldly system. That isn't the case and never was the case. The real buying and selling of people is a spiritual matter and always has been. Who bought everyone? Satan. Who sold us into the slavery of Satan? God did. Who bought us out of slavery to Satan? Jesus, God Himself, paid our redemption price by the blood of His Son.

The culmination of this wicked age is every bit about the final destruction of Satan and his messengers. Since you or I can't see them, we must enter into a different manner of perception, in the Spirit. And Gods Word Light does shed a huge amount of information in this direction.

But you see John, since your sights really have no distinction of the other parties, it is going to remain rather lame, and, imho, entirely worthless as an "end time" discussion. It's just a fleshly imagination of spiritual matters. Nothing personal. You are welcome to think you're going to see "some guy" as the anti-Christ setting up a golden image in the plain of Dura. I'm telling you though that that just ain't going to happen.

There will be no "man" as the antichrist because Satan is the antichrist and Satan can't be seen. Yet Satan is the defacto owner of the flesh of all mankind, save for one man, Christ, whom we no longer know after the flesh.

And there will be no visible marks seen either, just as we do not see the "Seal" of the Holy Spirit. Marks have a whole different set of rules in the spiritual senses of understandings. People who think they'll see this stuff in the flesh are wasting their time waiting for physical sensationalism. That's nothing but eschatology drama queen proposals.

 

[pie-man]

This is an interesting thread. I have heard about the Mark of the Beast before, and I can definitely see that money is changing, i.e. the way we pay for things, and the possibility of being micro-chipped somewhere down the line isn't implausible. I have often wondered what I will do when the Mark comes. Rejecting it will mean losing everything, family, friends, house, etc. It's serious when one thinks about it, which may be why so many people opt for obscure/irrational interpretations about this prophecy, because the reality is too much for them. Anyway, I certainly need to do more spiritually to be ready for this time.

 

[john darling]

The buying and selling of people transpires, unseen. We are "sold" into sin, being an example.

Except that's not what the prophecy says. It says people won't be able to buy or sell without the Mark. It doesn't say Satan won't be able to buy or sell. It doesn't say the people buy and sell people. It just says they won't be able to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast.

Revelation 14 gives a strong warning against anyone taking the Mark, but your explanation about the spiritual MUST ignore that warning because otherwise, how does one refuse the Mark which allows them to buy and sell?

What's more disturbing is that you've still not dealt with the issue where you earlier implied that even if the Mark IS a physical symbol of loyalty to the Beast it won't matter if people take it because "nothing" can separate us from the love of God.

When the time comes that it will not longer be possible to buy or sell without a microchip in the hand, will you take it?

 

[smaller]

Except that's not what the prophecy says. It says people won't be able to buy or sell without the Mark. It doesn't say Satan won't be able to buy or sell. It doesn't say the people buy and sell people. It just says they won't be able to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast.

Uh, no, that would be you reading into that matter what isn't there. There is no reference to money nor is there reference to "what" is being bought and sold.

Revelation 13:
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

If you see "money" in there, anywhere, you'll have to point to it because it's not there.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure if one of these showed up, we might easily recognize such a beast:

Rev. 13:
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

or one of these:

Rev. 13
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Pardon me for laughing at people who think that such beasts will be "seen" in the physical senses. They won't be. And that alone would clue anyone in to the fact that these are speakings of allegory and of a spiritual nature.

Revelation 14 gives a strong warning against anyone taking the Mark, but your explanation about the spiritual MUST ignore that warning because otherwise, how does one refuse the Mark which allows them to buy and sell?

Yeah, well, let me know when you see the two beasts above. I won't hold my breath.

What's more disturbing is that you've still not dealt with the issue where you earlier implied that even if the Mark IS a physical symbol of loyalty to the Beast it won't matter if people take it because "nothing" can separate us from the love of God.

I've observed that you haven't even entered the arena as to the identity of the parties involved above.

When the time comes that it will not longer be possible to buy or sell without a microchip in the hand, will you take it?

I think such forms of eschatology are a bad joke without a clue about the nature of the subject matter or the parties involved.

 

[JohnDB]

OK. Good ideas.

The dragon/I stands on the shore...half in sybolic chaos and half symbolicly on top of God's kids. (Showing contempt for Christians)

This is who gives this first beast the authority and power to go to war with Christians...

Now this first beast creates a second beast to hand out the mark/branding in the fashion of the slave trade of old.

Now the first beast has a very peculiar name....something in Parody with Michael's name. (Who is like God vx Who is like the beast) and lets not forget the Parody of Israel's name too of "He struggles with God" vx "who can fight/struggle with the beast".

So either way we have war on Christians and a name Parody with biblical names.

It's an agent of this Michael's parody beast that hands out this branding.

Now there are two readings of this number. One is 666 and the other is 616. Using Gematria with hebrew we can come up with Nero Caesar or Caesar-God.
But we can also look at Soloman from the Old Testament. Every year he collected 666 talents of gold from prohibited activities that the Torah specifically indicated that the king should not do.

What exactly is this symbolic of or who?

Answers I know I don't have.

But the branding mark will be wrong to do and it's going to be obvious. Allegiance to those that hate Christians is not my thing.

So I ain't gonna worry.

 

[smaller]

OK. Good ideas.

The dragon/I stands on the shore...half in sybolic chaos and half symbolicly on top of God's kids. (Showing contempt for Christians)

This is who gives this first beast the authority and power to go to war with Christians...

Now this first beast creates a second beast to hand out the mark/branding in the fashion of the slave trade of old.

Now the first beast has a very peculiar name....something in Parody with Michael's name. (Who is like God vx Who is like the beast) and lets not forget the Parody of Israel's name too of "He struggles with God" vx "who can fight/struggle with the beast".

So either way we have war on Christians and a name Parody with biblical names.

It's an agent of this Michael's parody beast that hands out this branding.

Now there are two readings of this number. One is 666 and the other is 616. Using Gematria with hebrew we can come up with Nero Caesar or Caesar-God.
But we can also look at Soloman from the Old Testament. Every year he collected 666 talents of gold from prohibited activities that the Torah specifically indicated that the king should not do.

What exactly is this symbolic of or who?

Answers I know I don't have.

But the branding mark will be wrong to do and it's going to be obvious. Allegiance to those that hate Christians is not my thing.

So I ain't gonna worry.

As to gematria, were I to subscribe to it, which I could, the number 666 means 'covering.'

Satan also, is known as the wicked cherub or messenger who "covers."

So, that will be the direction of my sights, as to overcoming this cover or number of his name as it may be proposed.

The number is obviously the number of the beast, and it is very easy to see the beast as Satan.

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Interestingly, the above who gained victory sing the song of Moses, found in chapter 15 of Exodus, referenced thusly:

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

Jesus references similarly, here:

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

If we want to see "pharaoh" in spiritual eyes, we turn, here:

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

All of these matters are quite couched in allegories. But in all cases, the "end time" is in fact the "end" of Satan's time.

 

[JohnDB]

As to gematria, were I to subscribe to it, which I could, the number 666 means 'covering.'

Satan also, is known as the wicked cherub or messenger who "covers."

So, that will be the direction of my sights, as to overcoming this cover or number of his name as it may be proposed.

The number is obviously the number of the beast, and it is very easy to see the beast as Satan.

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Interestingly, the above who gained victory sing the song of Moses, found in chapter 15 of Exodus, referenced thusly:

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

Jesus references similarly, here:

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

If we want to see "pharaoh" in spiritual eyes, we turn, here:

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

All of these matters are quite couched in allegories. But in all cases, the "end time" is in fact the "end" of Satan's time.

I would compare these scriptures with multiple translations.

I'm not saying that you are wrong but I just don't see "the dragon" in the scriptures you have posted. Nor the correlation between the two seas.

But I will agree that the end of time is the end for Satan himself.

 

[Obadiah]

Hi Obadiah. I'm pretty sure I do have an open mind and I re-read your post quite carefully. You didn't address what Jesus said about the two masters (i.e. God and money). So, no, you've not addressed the point I made based on Matthew 6:24. Would you be okay to do that now?

In particular I'm making a comparison between this sentence from your post, "The passage really doesn't seem to be saying that we shouldn't work for money at all or even that we shouldn't "love" having a paying job and all that comes from that".

The "all that comes from that" part would be money and the things money can buy. This is exactly the issue Jesus addressed when he said, "you can't work for God and mammon (money and the things money can buy" without cheating on one or the other. You will love one and hate the other".

Also, since this is a Mark of the Beast thread, it would be good if you could answer the issue I raised with you about the buying/selling aspect of the Mark and how that relates to our dependence on money. To me, there is a very clear connection between our dependence on money and the AC choosing to use buying/selling as his mark of loyalty.

I'll try once more to point it out to you. I addressed this in the last paragraph of what I wrote where I said:

...in verse 10 where he condemns the "love of money", the word used for love of money is not one of the Greek words traditionally translated as love in English. The word is "philarguria" which actually means "avarice" (extreme greed for wealth or material gain.) We can "love" many kinds of things and that's fine with God. We are never told (when taken in proper context of the entirety of scripture) to only love God, we are only told not to love anything else more than we love God. So it's OK and even proper to have a job and love making money so you can buy the things you need, pay your bills, and not have to mooch off of those who do have paying jobs. All we are being told here is to not allow ourselves to develop a strong desire to get rich which overshadows our desire to follow God and be his disciples and ministers...

I don't know how to make that any more clear.

Matt 6:24 is not speaking just of loving money but is speaking of loving it to the point of making it your master. That's a different concept. It's common sense that if you love something enough to make it your master, you will love it more than anything else. That doesn't mean you can't love something without making it your master. The original language word used here for love isn't even the same word as used in the Timothy verse. Everyone knows there are clearly different levels and different kinds of love even though the English language is limited to only one word for all of them. If I say I love my wife or girlfriend this is certainly a different kind of love than if I said I love my daughter or my brother! In the Greek and Hebrew of scripture there are different words for these different kinds of love, but in English we are limited to only one word and must rely on the common sense of the listener (or reader) to take the statement in the context in which it was said. It seems where you are hung up is your insistence that there are only two choices, either love something to the point that you make an idol out of it, or hate it and avoid it altogether. This just isn't the reality of life and also was not the intent of scripture.

You also said:

...In particular I'm making a comparison between this sentence from your post, "The passage really doesn't seem to be saying that we shouldn't work for money at all or even that we shouldn't "love" having a paying job and all that comes from that".

The "all that comes from that" part would be money and the things money can buy...

No, this is not true and, it seems, very narrow minded on your part to see it this way. This is the kind of assumption I was trying to prompt you to avoid when I asked you to re-read my post "with an open mind". There is more to life than money and things, and there are more rewards from a job than money and things. I feel bad for anyone who has to spend such a large portion of their sad lives working at a job where the only part that is rewarding for them is getting a paycheck for their efforts and they live their entire lives believing in this limitation! They (if they are Christians) need to look into what God has called them to do and change their professions and activities to line up with their calling! Maybe I'm weird, but I love my job so much that if it were allowed I would even volunteer time for free to be able to accomplish more of the good things my job produces. (But sadly this is prohibited by law, and maybe for good reason. I found this out when a supervisor found out I actually was working "off the clock" at times just because things needed to be done.) However, that doesn't mean that I love my job or the paycheck it produces more than I love God. On the contrary, it means I love God enough that I am happy to work at the tasks He has given me to do for even more reasons than just to earn money.



You have been asked before (I believe it was you who was asked anyway) and I have yet to see a practical, workable answer from you so I will ask you again, although it's hard for me to imagine that you have any real workable solution to the dilemma. If you will not work for money, how will you provide for yourself in 21st century civilized society? And don't tell me you only work for love and that is enough. "Love" in and of itself will not get you food, clothes, shelter, or any of the other necessities of life that I'm 99.9% sure you are using in your very own life even now. (You have to be, or you wouldn't even have the ability to be on the internet posting in these forums. You can't pay your internet provider bill or your electric bill by telling these companies how much you love them or offering to do some task for them in return for their products. You have to PAY them with MONEY!) Long term mooching off of other people isn't Biblical and bartering is no longer practical in modern civilized society, so how do you propose a person makes a living (as is commanded in the Bible to do)? There is no sane, rational person who would ever claim you can make a living for yourself by working only for "love" and never accepting wages for your work, and this certainly isn't Biblical either!

As for all this talk of the "mark of the beat", it simply isn't here yet and we, as Christians should not worry about the future that we can't control. We, with God's guidance, are to do what is practical and reasonable to function today and let God worry about the future. So I'm not concerned about some kind of "mark of the beast" that doesn't exist yet. This has nothing to do with this idea of yours that we shouldn't accept wages for our jobs today.

 

[smaller]

I would compare these scriptures with multiple translations.

I'm not saying that you are wrong but I just don't see "the dragon" in the scriptures you have posted. Nor the correlation between the two seas.

Uh, yeah. It's actually a pretty common phenomena:

Here was the exact citing, even highlighted:

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

I take it for granted that any serious eschatologist knows who the great dragon is. If not, they need to do more associative scriptural homework:

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

But I will agree that the end of time is the end for Satan himself.

Yeah, if you got that much out of Revelation you did just fine. That's really all there is to be gleaned from the end of the matters. Once that's done, we'll all tend to see much better.

 

[JohnDB]

I'll try once more to point it out to you. I addressed this in the last paragraph of what I wrote where I said:

I don't know how to make that any more clear.

Matt 6:24 is not speaking just of loving money but is speaking of loving it to the point of making it you master. That's a different concept. It's common sense that if you love something enough to make it your master, you will love it more than anything else. That doesn't mean you can't love something without making it your master. The original language word used here for love isn't even the same word as used in the Timothy verse. Everyone knows there are clearly different levels and different kinds of love even though the English language is limited to only one word for all of them. If I say I love my wife or girlfriend this is certainly a different kind of love than if I said I love my daughter or my brother! In the Greek and Hebrew of scripture there are different words for these different kinds of love, but in English we are limited to only one word and must rely on the common sense of the listener (or reader) to take the statement in the context in which it was said. It seems where you are hung up is your insistence that there are only two choices, either love something to the point that you make an idol out of it, or hate it and avoid it altogether. This just isn't the reality of life and also was not the intent of scripture.

You also said:

No, this is not true and, it seems, very narrow minded on your part to see it this way. This is the kind of assumption I was trying to prompt you to avoid when I asked you to re-read my post "with an open mind". There is more to life than money and things, and there are more rewards from a job than money and things. I feel bad for anyone who has to spend such a large portion of their sad lives working at a job where the only part that is rewarding for them is getting a paycheck for their efforts and they live their entire lives believing in this limitation! They (if they are Christians) need to look into what God has called them to do and change their professions and activities to line up with their calling! Maybe I'm weird, but I love my job so much that if it were allowed I would even volunteer time for free to be able to accomplish more of the good things my job produces. (But sadly this is prohibited by law, and maybe for good reason. I found this out when a supervisor found out I actually was working "off the clock" at times just because things needed to be done.) However, that doesn't mean that I love my job or the paycheck it produces more than I love God. On the contrary, it means I love God enough that I am happy to work at the tasks He has given me to do for even more reasons than just to earn money.



You have been asked before (I believe it was you who was asked anyway) and I have yet to see a practical, workable answer from you so I will ask you again, although it's hard for me to imagine that you have any real workable solution to the dilemma. If you will not work for money, how will you provide for yourself in 21st century civilized society? And don't tell me you only work for love and that is enough. "Love" in and of itself will not get you food, clothes, shelter, or any of the other necessities of life that I'm 99.9% sure you are using in your very own life even now. (You have to be, or you wouldn't even have the ability to be on the internet posting in these forums!) Long term mooching off of other people isn't Biblical and bartering is no longer practical in modern civilized society, so how do you propose a person makes a living (as is commanded in the Bible to do)? There is no sane, rational person who would ever claim you can make a living for yourself by working only for "love" and never accepting wages for your work, and this certainly isn't Biblical either!

As for all this talk of the "mark of the beat", it simply isn't here yet and we, as Christians should not worry about the future that we can't control. We, with God's guidance, are to do what is practical and reasonable to function today and let God worry about the future. So I'm not concerned about some kind of "mark of the beast" that doesn't exist yet. This has nothing to do with this idea of yours that we shouldn't accept wages for our jobs today.

Now where a workman deserves his wages I can agree with that. Even Jesus used money.

But as far as the mark not being here yet...I would say that with the Soloman parallel/allusion its quite possibly here. Meaning getting involved with promoting things which are sinful just for the sake of marketing and "political correctness" is something that won't ever sit well with God. (Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).

So I won't say it is not here.... But just not "the mark" everyone has to have. YET