How many YHWHs are there?

[jocor]

he saw hands. moses describe more. in exodus. 33:23 its says until I remove my hands and backside shall ye see. and if by that was only glory then you have a problem as all that saw the tabernacle per exodus 40 would have seen it filled with the glory of god.

jesus was asked show us the father. why then did jesus say if ye have seen me you have seen the father? nature is the same that is why.

There is no mention of Moses seeing Yahweh's hand. In Ex 40, the cloud obscured the glory. Yeshua said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" because he was the "express image" of the Father (Heb 1:3). However, an image is not the original, but only a copy of it.

and what exactly is this then if they didn't have a vision?

And Moses goeth up, Aaron also, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10 and they see the God of Israel, and under His feet [is] as the white work of the sapphire, and as the substance of the heavens for purity;
11 and unto those of the sons of Israel who are near He hath not put forth His hand, and they see God, and eat and drink.

god can reveal some of his glory to us. moses got most of it but others per this last verse saw the YHWH. if you want to argue that the YHWH isn't the God of Isreal then be my guest.

Num.12:6-8; "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I Yahweh will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of Yahweh shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Verse 6 tells us the normal way a person would see Yahweh is via a vision or dream. We see this in Ex.24:10-11 by the Hebrew words used; "And they saw the Elohim of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in His clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand: also they saw Elohim, and did eat and drink." In what way did they see the Elohim of Israel who is Yahweh?

The words translated "saw" in both verses can have several meanings. "Ra'ah" (Strong's #7200) is used far more than any other word for the act of a prophet when receiving Yahweh's word. (See Isa.6:1; Jer.1:11;Ezek.1:1). A derivative of "ra'ah", "ro'eh" (seer) is used as a name for a prophet. It suggests the act of receiving Yahweh's messages via visions and dreams. (See 1 Sam.9:9,11,18,19). Therefore, the men in Ex 24:10-11 would have seen Him in a vision since only Moses was permitted to see a "similitude" of Him.

 

[jocor]

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)

See post #60

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." (ESV)

Verses 10-12 are direct quotes from Psalm 102:25-27. They are not a quote from the Hebrew Text, however, but from the Septuagint (LXX). The Hebrew Text does not have "Lord" in it. Therefore, to suggest that "Lord" in Heb.1:10 proves that Yeshua is YHWH is an assumption. The LXX has "Kurie" in Psalm 102:25, but that is an addition since it is not found in the Hebrew Text. The LXX also omits "O my el" in verse 24.

 

[jocor]

As I stated, the very reasons you give in your OP show that you are arguing for the nature of YHWH. The problem is that you are presuming that the Father alone is YHWH and then using those verses to support that idea, but none of those verses actually prove your point. Those verses are merely statements of monotheism.

Sorry, but it is you that are starting with the assumption that Yeshua is the YHWH of the OT and then reading him back into those verses.

If Jesus isn't YHWH, he isn't God. If he isn't God, there is no salvation. YHWH is simply the name for God, without distinction between Father, Son, or Holy Spirit.

These statements depend on what you mean by "God". "God" is a translation of the Hebrew "elohim" and refer to the Almighty, false gods, mighty men, and angels. Where does Scripture say the Messiah had to be "God" in order to save people?

You don't seem to be reading what I am writing. The verse in John 17:5 clearly shows that Jesus shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation. The other two verses in Matthew equate the glory of the Father with the glory of the Son.

Yeshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yeshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. From before creation, Yahweh had Yeshua’s sacrifice in His plan for all humankind.

The glory that Yeshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yeshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, ‘Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.’ ” Yeshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yeshua in turn glorifying the Father.

 

[Free]

See post #60

The context of Jn.8 shows that Yeshua;

1) accused the Pharisees of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua's words leading
them to believe;

1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
2) Yeshua had a devil (vs.52).
3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Yeshua's words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn't restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, but not because of two simple words, "ego eimi".

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Ex 3:14 reads,

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

In Septuagint English it reads, "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you."

In KJV English it reads, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In John 8:58, "I am" is "ἐγὼ εἰμί" in Greek. As you can see, "ἐγὼ εἰμί" in Ex 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the "ὁ ὢν" or "the Being" or "the Existing One".

If Yeshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great "I am" of Ex 3:14, he would have said, "Before Abraham was I am the Being" or "I am the Existing One".

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

We can see that Jesus says "I am" after saying that he was "before Abraham." The point here is that Jesus is speaking to his existence prior to Abraham, an existence for which he uses "I am." The implication is fairly clear, and could be made more so by other comparisons in John to various passages in Isaiah.

The Jewish translation states: "And he is saying Elohim to Moses I shall become who I am becoming and he is saying thus and you shall say to sons of Israel I shall become he sent me to you."

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf

So it would seem possible that the Septuagint has added some words in.

Verses 10-12 are direct quotes from Psalm 102:25-27. They are not a quote from the Hebrew Text, however, but from the Septuagint (LXX). The Hebrew Text does not have "Lord" in it. Therefore, to suggest that "Lord" in Heb.1:10 proves that Yeshua is YHWH is an assumption. The LXX has "Kurie" in Psalm 102:25, but that is an addition since it is not found in the Hebrew Text. The LXX also omits "O my el" in verse 24.

Interesting that in post #60 you argue your point using the Septuagint, and now here you are using the Hebrew text to argue against the Septuagint. Any particular reason you chose not to stay with one or the other, other than they happened to each appear to support your argument at those given points?

It is understood that "Lord" comes from an earlier verse in Psalms 102, namely, verse 12 (verse 13 in the Hebrew). Since the Psalm is addressing YHWH, the implication is obvious that the writer of Hebrews is applying YHWH to Jesus.

 

[Free]

Sorry, but it is you that are starting with the assumption that Yeshua is the YHWH of the OT and then reading him back into those verses.

Nice try but no. Your OP starts with the assumption that YHWH is only the Father and then uses verses which only have YHWH in them. You have not yet provided any evidence to back up your argument.

These statements depend on what you mean by "God". "God" is a translation of the Hebrew "elohim" and refer to the Almighty, false gods, mighty men, and angels. Where does Scripture say the Messiah had to be "God" in order to save people?

This is a Christian forum in which we are having a discussion about who YHWH is. I think it is quite clear what I mean by 'God.' The Scripture doesn't make such a claim, at least not explicitly, but it is rather based on sound Scriptural reasoning.

Yeshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yeshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. From before creation, Yahweh had Yeshua’s sacrifice in His plan for all humankind.

The glory that Yeshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yeshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, ‘Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.’ ” Yeshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yeshua in turn glorifying the Father.

And none of that actually addresses what the verses I gave are saying. Either Jesus shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation, like he said, or he did not.

 

[JLB]

There is no mention of Moses seeing Yahweh's hand. In Ex 40, the cloud obscured the glory. Yeshua said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" because he was the "express image" of the Father (Heb 1:3). However, an image is not the original, but only a copy of it.



Num.12:6-8; "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I Yahweh will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of Yahweh shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Verse 6 tells us the normal way a person would see Yahweh is via a vision or dream. We see this in Ex.24:10-11 by the Hebrew words used; "And they saw the Elohim of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in His clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand: also they saw Elohim, and did eat and drink." In what way did they see the Elohim of Israel who is Yahweh?

The words translated "saw" in both verses can have several meanings. "Ra'ah" (Strong's #7200) is used far more than any other word for the act of a prophet when receiving Yahweh's word. (See Isa.6:1; Jer.1:11;Ezek.1:1). A derivative of "ra'ah", "ro'eh" (seer) is used as a name for a prophet. It suggests the act of receiving Yahweh's messages via visions and dreams. (See 1 Sam.9:9,11,18,19). Therefore, the men in Ex 24:10-11 would have seen Him in a vision since only Moses was permitted to see a "similitude" of Him.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3:1-4


Who was speaking to Moses?



JLB

 

[jocor]

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

We can see that Jesus says "I am" after saying that he was "before Abraham." The point here is that Jesus is speaking to his existence prior to Abraham, an existence for which he uses "I am." The implication is fairly clear, and could be made more so by other comparisons in John to various passages in Isaiah.

The Jewish translation states: "And he is saying Elohim to Moses I shall become who I am becoming and he is saying thus and you shall say to sons of Israel I shall become he sent me to you."

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf

So it would seem possible that the Septuagint has added some words in.

I used the Septuagint because it has the Greek of Ex 3:14 which is what you claim Yeshua was declaring himself to be, the I AM. If he really was claiming to be the being speaking in Ex 3:14, he would have used the entire Greek phrase, not just "ego eimi".

The context of Yeshua's statement begins in verse 51 with the thought of eternal life; "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." The Jews thought since Abraham and the prophets were dead, Yeshua must have a devil. The context is eternal life. Then in verse 56 Yeshua says Abraham "rejoiced to see my day." He did not say he saw Abraham as the Jews misunderstood. How did Abraham see Yeshua's day? Heb.11:13 says, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." He saw Yeshua's day by faith.

Yeshua then resumed the context of his initial conversation by saying, "Before Abraham was, I am." "Was" is from the Greek "ginomai" meaning, "to come into being, ... to arise." What Yeshua actually meant was, "Before Abraham comes into being (at his resurrection unto eternal life), I will." Confirmation of this understanding comes to us from Figures of Speech Used in the Bible by E.W. Bullinger, pgs. 521,522. Under the heading "Heterosis (Of Tenses)," subheading "The Present for the Future," he writes, "This is put when the design is to show that some thing will certainly come to pass, and is spoken of as though it were already present." He then lists some examples such as Mt.3:10b, "therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is [shall be] hewn down;" and Mk.9:31a, "For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is [shall be] delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day." Included among his list of examples of Heterosis is John 8:58. In other words, although properly written, "Before Abraham comes to be, I am," with "I am" in the simple present tense, the meaning points to the future, "Before Abraham comes to be, I will."

Interesting that in post #60 you argue your point using the Septuagint, and now here you are using the Hebrew text to argue against the Septuagint. Any particular reason you chose not to stay with one or the other, other than they happened to each appear to support your argument at those given points?

It is understood that "Lord" comes from an earlier verse in Psalms 102, namely, verse 12 (verse 13 in the Hebrew). Since the Psalm is addressing YHWH, the implication is obvious that the writer of Hebrews is applying YHWH to Jesus.

In reading the Hebrew of Ps.102, it is clear the subject is Yahweh. They are the words of an afflicted man as he cries out to Yahweh. They are not the words of Yahweh as He speaks to His Son.

Notice each of the other Old Testament quotes in Hebrew 1;

Ps.2:7 - "...Thou art my Son; this day I (Yahweh) have begotten thee."

2 Sam.7:14 - "I (Yahweh) will be to him a Father..."

Deut.32:43 (LXX) - "And let all the angels of God (Yahweh) worship him."

Ps.45:6,7 - "Thy throne O elohim...therefore elohim, thy Elohim (Yahweh) hath anointed thee."

Ps.110:1 - "Sit on my right hand, until I (Yahweh) make thine enemies thy footstool."

In each of these quotes it can be seen that either Yahweh is talking to His Son or about His Son. Yet, in Ps.102:25-27 it is the Psalmist talking to Yahweh. Therefore, to include Heb.1:10-12 among those things that Yahweh said to or about His Son is incorrect.

The writer of Hebrews had written verses 1-9 to show how Yahweh exalted His Son, even above the angels. It appears as though the writer was then moved to exalt Yahweh as well by including verses 10-12 as a parenthesis. He then resumes by showing Yeshua's exaltation in verse 13 which is a continuation of verse 9.

 

[jocor]

Nice try but no. Your OP starts with the assumption that YHWH is only the Father and then uses verses which only have YHWH in them. You have not yet provided any evidence to back up your argument.

I don't have to. The entire OT declares the God of Israel to be YHWH. This is the same being that said, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7). Then false teachers come along declaring that the Son is YHWH, the God of Israel.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.​

In other words, Yeshua is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is his Son. The Son of YHWH.

This is a Christian forum in which we are having a discussion about who YHWH is. I think it is quite clear what I mean by 'God.' The Scripture doesn't make such a claim, at least not explicitly, but it is rather based on sound Scriptural reasoning.

You originally wrote, "If Jesus isn't YHWH, he isn't God. If he isn't God, there is no salvation. YHWH is simply the name for God, without distinction between Father, Son, or Holy Spirit."

Yeshua isn't YHWH and he isn't "God" in the sense that YHWH is. Yeshua himself called his Father "the only true God" (John 17:3). All others are not the only true God including Yeshua. When the word "God" is used in our English Bibles in reference to Yeshua, it is from the Hebrew "elohim" or the Greek "theos" which are both used of beings other than the one true God, YHWH.

Yeshua does not need to be God in order to save us. The only true God appointed him to save us. He is the instrument/person that YHWH chose to save the world, but the ultimate Savior is YHWH. YHWH is the name of Yeshua's Father. He is the only being in the entire universe that bears that name at this time.

And none of that actually addresses what the verses I gave are saying. Either Jesus shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation, like he said, or he did not.

He did not "share in" the glory of the Father. The Father glorified him with the glory Yeshua had in Yahweh's foreordained plan of salvation. It was foreordained before creation that Yeshua would die as the "Lamb slain". That glory would come via his death and resurrection.

 

[jocor]

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3:1-4


Who was speaking to Moses?



JLB

An angel (the Angel of YHWH).

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of YHWH in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.​

This could not have been Yeshua because Yeshua was not an angel. If you are claiming he was "God", then he could not be an angel. Aside from that we have this verse:

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.​

The world to come is definitely put in subjection to Yeshua. Therefore, he cannot be an angel.

 

[JLB]

An angel (the Angel of YHWH).

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of YHWH in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.​

This could not have been Yeshua because Yeshua was not an angel. If you are claiming he was "God", then he could not be an angel. Aside from that we have this verse:

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.​

The world to come is definitely put in subjection to Yeshua. Therefore, he cannot be an angel.

So what is your answer?

It looks like to me from Exodus 3:1-4 you have 3 Choices:

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3:1-4

1.) The Angel of The Lord: the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire.

2.) The Lord: when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look,

3.) God: God called to him from the midst of the bush.

4.) All of the above.


JLB

 

[jocor]

I

So what is your answer?

It looks like to me from Exodus 3:1-4 you have 3 Choices:

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3:1-4

1.) The Angel of The Lord: the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire.

2.) The Lord: when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look,

3.) God: God called to him from the midst of the bush.

4.) All of the above.


JLB

I gave you my answer. It was an angel, the angel of YHWH. As Yahweh's representative, he has the authority to speak as Yahweh.

Concerning Gen.32:24 where Jacob wrestled with a "man", he said he saw "Elohim face to face". Yet, in Hosea 12:3,4a, we find out it wasn't Elohim (Yahweh), but an angel that he wrestled with; "He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with Elohim: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:"

The thought will then come to mind that the Scriptures cannot be true since they contradict each other. In one place it is said Yahweh spoke face to face, but in another it really wasn't Yahweh, but an angel. If we try to understand this from a Western mind set, from our cultural perspective, it is difficult to understand. Not so from Middle Eastern thought. This is what is known as the "law of agency". "The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself" (Ned.72b; Kidd.41b)." The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15. The angel that spoke from the bush was Yahweh's agent or representative. As such, he had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name. He was speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted him to say.

 

[JLB]

I


I gave you my answer. It was an angel, the angel of YHWH. As Yahweh's representative, he has the authority to speak as Yahweh.

Concerning Gen.32:24 where Jacob wrestled with a "man", he said he saw "Elohim face to face". Yet, in Hosea 12:3,4a, we find out it wasn't Elohim (Yahweh), but an angel that he wrestled with; "He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with Elohim: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:"

The thought will then come to mind that the Scriptures cannot be true since they contradict each other. In one place it is said Yahweh spoke face to face, but in another it really wasn't Yahweh, but an angel. If we try to understand this from a Western mind set, from our cultural perspective, it is difficult to understand. Not so from Middle Eastern thought. This is what is known as the "law of agency". "The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself" (Ned.72b; Kidd.41b)." The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15. The angel that spoke from the bush was Yahweh's agent or representative. As such, he had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to seemingly appropriate His name. He was speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted him to say.

What is an angel ? Answer a spirit.

What is The Angel of The Lord? Answer: The Spirit of The Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17


17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?
22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" Judges 13:17,22

He shall be called Wonderful.


Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

How can the Spirit of Christ, dwell in every believer if He is not God.

Only God is Omnipresent.

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"
Genesis 16:11-13


1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust." 3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence. 4 He shall cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler. Psalm 91:1-4


JLB

 

[jocor]

What is an angel ? Answer a spirit.

What is The Angel of The Lord? Answer: The Spirit of The Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

This is nonsense.

17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?
22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" Judges 13:17,22

He shall be called Wonderful.


Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

How can the Spirit of Christ, dwell in every believer if He is not God.

Only God is Omnipresent.

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"
Genesis 16:11-13


1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust." 3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence. 4 He shall cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler. Psalm 91:1-4


JLB

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.​

That being the case, how can you argue that Yeshua was the God that was seen in those verses?

 

[JLB]

This is nonsense.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.​

That being the case, how can you argue that Yeshua was the God that was seen in those verses?

That's the very point I have been making to you.

Every person who saw God in the Old Testament was seeing The Lord Jesus before He became flesh,

NOT GOD THE FATHER!


16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Not God The Father, but The Son of God, The Word who was God became flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is nonsense.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.​

That being the case, how can you argue that Yeshua was the God that was seen in those verses?

What is an angel ? Answer a spirit.

What is The Angel of The Lord? Answer: The Spirit of The Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

If any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


Do you have the Spirit of Christ in you?


JLB

 

[Edward]

It's my understanding that YHWH is the father, and Yeshua is the son, Jesus.

 

[Sinthesis]

It's my understanding that YHWH is the father, and Yeshua is the son, Jesus.

That is what I supposed before this thread. Now I understand that YHWH can be descriptive of each Person of the Trinity.

 

[Edward]

That is what I supposed before this thread. Now I understand that YHWH can be descriptive of each Person of the Trinity.

I'll buy that, for they are one. But when differentiating between them in conversation, that's how they are identified.

A lot of people call Jesus, Jesus Christ, as if that is His name, but it is not. Christ is a title, as in an office. Jesus the Christ would be more accurate. Or even Christ Jesus.

 

[jasonc]

An angel (the Angel of YHWH).

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of YHWH in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.​

This could not have been Yeshua because Yeshua was not an angel. If you are claiming he was "God", then he could not be an angel. Aside from that we have this verse:

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.​

The world to come is definitely put in subjection to Yeshua. Therefore, he cannot be an angel.

Joshua worshiped an angel of the lord? and the the LORD when its in caps is always the HESHEM. tell what you are saying to A JEW. a messianic jew and they will say any of those names are God, and a messianic jew that is a Trinitarian will say its all three.

but again whenever has an angel been sanctified like this?

ylt

13And it cometh to pass in Joshua’s being by Jericho, that he lifteth up his eyes, and looketh, and lo, one standing over-against him, and his drawn sword in his hand, and Joshua goeth unto him, and saith to him, ‘Art thou for us or for our adversaries?’ 14And He saith, ‘No, for I [am] Prince of Jehovah’s host; now I have come;’ and Joshua falleth on his face to the earth, and doth obeisance, and saith to Him, ‘What is my Lord speaking unto His servant?’ 15And the Prince of Jehovah’s host saith unto Joshua, ‘Cast off thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place on which thou art standing is holy;’ and Joshua doth so;

 

[Eugene]

It's my understanding that YHWH is the father, and Yeshua is the son, Jesus.

There is ONE God. Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Jehovah is Jehovah.

In Isaiah 40:3 there is prophesy of John the Baptist referring to Jesus as LORD; that is Jehovah, the official name of God. "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah=Jesus here), make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

Jesus says of Himself in Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Jehovah), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.