How to be saved.....

[chessman]

Apparently so. Perhaps reading all of Psalm 139 will help you to understand those two verses in context.
In brief, there is no place anyone can go in this life or after, Heaven or Sheol, where they are away from the presence of God.

I read it, yet didn't see God say there's no place that anyone can go where they are away from His presence. Could you please post the verse where God says there's no place that anyone can go where they are away from the presence of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
​

I'm reluctant to ask you a third question about your case with two unanswered already, but since you've made the new claim above, it's relevant.

Do you think Paul was familiar with Psalm 139?

Is David a person who will be cast into the depths of Hell on your view?

How would you answer David's questions?

 

[Windsong]

I read it, yet didn't see God say there's no place that anyone can go where they are away from His presence. Could you please post the verse where God says there's no place that anyone can go where they are away from the presence of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
​

I'm reluctant to ask you a third question about your case with two unanswered already, but since you've made the new claim above, it's relevant.

Do you think Paul was familiar with Psalm 139?

You don't believe God is Omnipresent?
How can that spirit power that is the first cause of all things eternally be absent in his creation at all? When everything created comes from and through that spirit's creative will.

 

[chessman]

God's love is innate. A passage in the bible doesn't need to mention love when God's love is that way. Always.

Bible passages are always helpful to support your case (as well as reasonable answers to reasonable questions). Yes God is love. He's also just. He loves righteousness and hates wickedness. Sorry but it's true.

Keep in mind the original question was about God loving forever (or not) those who are wicked and are eventually punished and cast into the depths of Hell:

Psalm 103:11, 17-18 For as the heavens are high above the earth, so his loyal love prevails over those who fear him.
But the loyal love of Yahweh is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him, and his righteousness to their children’s children, to those who keep his covenant and remember to do his precepts.
​

David's secure in God's love (Psalm 139). But what about the wicked that are cast into the depths of Hell??? Is God's Love present??? I think not:

1. Psalm 11:5 Yahweh tests the righteous, but the wicked and the lover of violence his soul hates.

2. Psalm 37:12-13, 28 The wicked plans evil against the righteous, and gnashes at him with his teeth. The Lord laughs at him, for he sees that his day is coming. For Yahweh loves justice and will not forsake his faithful ones. They are protected forever. But the children of the wicked will be cut off.

3. Psalm 97:10a You who love Yahweh, hate evil.

4. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
​

I don't know why I'm answering your questions when you are not answering mine but here goes:

You don't believe God is Omnipresent?

​

Yes, I believe God is omnipresent.

How can that spirit power that is the first cause of all things eternally be absent in his creation at all?

​

It's His creation. He can (and will eventually) punish what He hates by destruction. And sorry but the wicked most certainly pay the penalty of eternal destruction "away from the presence of the Lord". If you think about it, it actually proves His righteous judgment.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 a proof of the righteous judgment of God, so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, on behalf of which also you are suffering, since it is righteous in the sight of God to pay back those who are afflicting you with affliction, and to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, whenever he should come to be glorified on that day by his saints and to be marveled at by all who believe, because our testimony was believed among you, ​

​

 

[Windsong]

Bible passages are always helpful to support your case (as well as reasonable answers to reasonable questions). Yes God is love. He's also just. He loves righteousness and hates wickedness. Sorry but it's true.

Keep in mind the original question was about God loving forever (or not) those who are wicked and are eventually punished and cast into the depths of Hell:

Psalm 103:11, 17-18 For as the heavens are high above the earth, so his loyal love prevails over those who fear him.
But the loyal love of Yahweh is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him, and his righteousness to their children’s children, to those who keep his covenant and remember to do his precepts.
​

David's secure in God's love (Psalm 139). But what about the wicked that are cast into the depths of Hell??? Is God's Love present??? I think not:

1. Psalm 11:5 Yahweh tests the righteous, but the wicked and the lover of violence his soul hates.

2. Psalm 37:12-13, 28 The wicked plans evil against the righteous, and gnashes at him with his teeth. The Lord laughs at him, for he sees that his day is coming. For Yahweh loves justice and will not forsake his faithful ones. They are protected forever. But the children of the wicked will be cut off.

3. Psalm 97:10a You who love Yahweh, hate evil.

4. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
​

I don't know why I'm answering your questions when you are not answering mine but here goes:

​

Yes, I believe God is omnipresent.

​

It's His creation. He can (and will eventually) punish what He hates by destruction. And sorry but the wicked most certainly pay the penalty of eternal destruction "away from the presence of the Lord". If you think about it, it actually proves His righteous judgment.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 a proof of the righteous judgment of God, so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, on behalf of which also you are suffering, since it is righteous in the sight of God to pay back those who are afflicting you with affliction, and to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, whenever he should come to be glorified on that day by his saints and to be marveled at by all who believe, because our testimony was believed among you, ​

​

I've been a member here for less than two full days and yet I've noticed that you and JLB seem to have this battle that goes on and on ad nausea over bible passages and their meaning. I'll not be the latest participant with you. Nor them.

Genesis 1 tells me all I need to know about God's sovereignty. If there is any place that God cannot be, then that is not the God of the Christian's faith. Because it is not possible that the source for all that is, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, that which self-identifies in Isaiah 45, can be non-present within something that exists having been created from the source of itself.
Question: "What does it mean that God is omnipresent?"


God is also Omniscient. Only we, limited mortal constructs with intellects to match, are surprised by how life turns out.

 

[JLB]

Sheep who do not follow Him are lost because they are not His sheep.

It is true what Jesus (not me) said:

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. ​

Do you think sheep who do not follow Him are His sheep?

If you mean sheep who have never followed Him, then No, they are not His sheep.

• His Sheep who follow Him for a while, then become lost are sinners in need of repentance.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Jesus shifts to direct speech and gives us the point.

A person can indeed belong to Christ, then later become lost.

This person who has become lost must repent and turn back to Him of lose His soul.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32


James teaches the same thing.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.

• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Do sheep believe in the shepherd? Or does the Shepherd believe in the sheep?

I would have to see which scripture you are referring to.

My opinion is, based on your question is: sheep believe in the Shepherd.

 

[JLB]

The Bible also uses the word strayed AND it also says that a good shepherd leaves the 99 and goes after the 1 and brings the lost sheep home. So, if a sheep goes astray, Jesus, the Good Shepherd, goes and brings that sheep back.

So no, a sheep can't stay lost. Not on Jesus' watch.

Now that Jesus has ascended to heaven and has given the responsibility to make Disciples to those He has entrusted this task, then it's up to those who have been appointed as Pastor's or Shepherds to go after those who have wandered off from the truth.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.

• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, and must turn back to Him or be lost; lose their soul in death.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I've been a member here for less than two full days and yet I've noticed that you and JLB seem to have this battle that goes on and on ad nausea over bible passages and their meaning.

Well it beats battling over politics. (Just kidding). I've learned a lot from JLB presenting his views on the meaning of various Bible passages. As I could potentially from yourself. In the Theological debate section of this forum, you're gonna get disagreement (and agreements) on various Bible passage's meanings. If we all agreed, it wouldn't mean we were all Biblically sound. We could all be wrong.

What you can't see, however, is the many posts he and others make that present a Biblical passage or logical argument based upon them in a way I've never considered. To me, that's called learning Truth.

It's always helpful though, if the discussions progress with reasonable/relevant Bible cross references, logical arguments and answers to reasonable questions. When people will not participate with additional relevant Bible passages or answer reasonable questions, it seems nauseating sure.
I could learn, for example, what answer you think God provided to David's question in Psalm 139 if you'd answer that question. Or why you think Paul told us the final punishment of the wicked is eternal destruction "away from the presence of God". Etc.

Genesis 1 tells me all I need to know about God's sovereignty.

Okay. I prefer a broader theological scope to include what the Sovereign told Paul and John concerning His Final Judgment upon the wicked.

If there is any place that God cannot be, then that is not the God of the Christian's faith.

How do you know that to be true, if all you know comes from Genesis 1 or Got Questions? Should you not consider Scriptures that teach that our Sovereign God could very well be Sovereign enough to one day destroy all evil "away from His presence"?

the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end

Yep. The beginning AND the end.

we, limited mortal constructs with intellects to match, are surprised by how life turns out.

Correct.

Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is set high; I cannot prevail against it.​

Which is why I asked you twice for God's answer to David's question in verse 7.

Psalm 139:7 Where I can go from your Spirit, or where can I flee from your presence? ​

God is also Omniscient. Only we, limited mortal constructs with intellects to match, are surprised by how life turns out.

Yep or the penalty (2nd death) of the wicked away from the Omniscient.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, ​

 

[chessman]

His Sheep who follow Him for a while, then become lost are sinners in need of repentance.

And in need of it's Shepherd. And guess what, they have one.

Luke 15:4-5 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the grassland and go after the one that was lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. ​

Based on the Scripture posted above ; For how long does the Shepherd "go after the one that was lost"?

A. "Until He finds it"
B. Until he gives up and admits defeat?
C. Until a wolf comes by and snatches up His sheep and eats it?

Jesus shifts to direct speech and gives us the point.

And the conclusion is the same, two additional times:

Luke 15:9, 24 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found the drachma that I had lost!’ ​

...

because this son of mine was dead, and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.​

All three stories end with rejoicing!

let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

Yes, God is good .... _____?
A. Sometimes
B. Most times
C. All the time

 

[JLB]

And in need of it's Shepherd. And guess what, they have one.

Luke 15:4-5 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the grassland and go after the one that was lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Based on the Scripture posted above ; For how long does the Shepherd "go after the one that was lost"?

A. "Until He finds it"
B. Until he gives up and admits defeat?
C. Until a wolf comes by and snatches up His sheep and eats it?

Which Shepherd?

Jesus or one of His disciples?

The fact is His sheep who become lost are no longer reconciled to Him, and have become dead to God and are lost, as a sinner, which means they are no longer saved.

They must repent just as they did as an unbeliever, or be lost.

Jesus does not "make', or "force" anyone to repent.

The prodigal son had to humble himself, and repent and turn back to his Father. When he did the father welcomed him back and the son was reconciled.

• Do you have any scripture that shows us a person who is lost, is saved.

Based on what Jesus teaches us in these three different scenarios:

Lost is a condition of unsaved.
Found is a condition of saved.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.

• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, and must turn back to Him or be lost; lose their soul in death.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, God is good .... _____?
A. Sometimes
B. Most times
C. All the time

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.

• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, and must turn back to Him or be lost; lose their soul in death.


If someone loses their soul to death, does that mean they are lost or found?


JLB

 

[JLB]

And the conclusion is the same, two additional times:

Luke 15:9, 24 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found the drachma that I had lost!’ ...
because this son of mine was dead, and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
All three stories end with rejoicing!

Every story that includes a person who became lost, then repented and is reconciled back to God, will end in rejoicing.

The principle is they must humble themselves, and confess their sin, and repent in order to be reconciled.


I ask you to be honest, and see that this is exactly what God expects of a sinner who has never believed, as well as someone who has willing departed from God and become lost.

• Humble themselves - I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.
• Confess sin - ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
• Repent: Be reconciled - I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ Luke 15:18-21

• It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

Here is where the rubber meets the road.


Do we tell people who have wandered from Christ and are backslidden and lost:

1. You are still saved, don't worry, continue as you are, Jesus will come for you someday and bring you back, it's guaranteed.
2. You must humble yourself, confess your sin, and repent and turn back to God and He will receive you back with open arms.

Which option would you say?

1 or 2 ?

As for me, I would tell them option 2.


Option 2, is what James teaches us to do, in order to save a from death.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



JLB

 

[chessman]

Which Shepherd?

Jesus or one of His disciples?

Umm, that's a false dichotomy, not to mention an evasion of the question. I asked you about THAT passages' teaching.

But, Jesus was before and is still active in the world post-ascention. So is The Father and The Holy Spirit.

The fact is His sheep who become lost are no longer reconciled to Him, and have become dead to God and are lost, as a sinner, which means they are no longer saved.

I appreciate your commentary and assumptions on His sheep's (coin and son's) salvation state, however, the conclusion is that in all three stories, they end with rejoicing because the sheep, coin and son ARE found. 3 for 3!

If someone loses their soul to death, does that mean they are lost or found?

It means they are dead. ??? Saved people die, lost people die. So???

James 5:14-16, 19-20 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the elders of the church and they should pray over him, anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous person accomplishes much. My brothers, if anyone among you should wander away from the truth and someone turns him back, he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save that person’s soul from death, and will cover over a great number of sins. ​

Only the Lord will raise people up and forgive sins! We simply participate via our prayers. It accomplishes much because of Who we are praying to, not because of who we are (or oil). (A visit to a competent doctor ever so often doesn't hurt either to save a sick person's soul from death).

But the forgiveness of a person's sins ..., best leave that to The Doctor in the sky.

 

[Kidron]

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



JLB

Its always interesting to read how a person thinks, who is obsessed with the idea that they can lose their salvation.
Once this spiritual infection sets it, all Grace is gone from them, all blood atonement, all Jesus on a cross as the way to the Father is long gone, and everything they write about has to do with earning salvation or personally trying to keep themselves saved.
Everything about what you write is pointing out that you are so "fallen from Grace" that its really quite a wonder.
You give Jesus and the Cross and the blood atonement credit for exactly NOTHING, as for you , JLB,...its ALL about works and works and deeds and effort to keep yourself saved.
Everything you write is just the most self-righteous theology that you can possibly twist a verse to try to prove.

 

[JLB]

Umm, that's a false dichotomy, not to mention an evasion of the question. I asked you about THAT passages' teaching.

But, Jesus was before and is still active in the world post-ascention. So is The Father and The Holy Spirit.

Of course they are active, but must work through human beings.

How is this false?

I appreciate your commentary and assumptions on His sheep's (coin and son's) salvation state, however, the conclusion is that in all three stories, they end with rejoicing because the sheep, coin and son ARE found. 3 for 3!

Every story that includes a person who became lost, then repented and is reconciled back to God, will end in rejoicing.

James teaches us how we are to save a soul from death, who has wandered away.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

It means they are dead. ??? Saved people die, lost people die. So???

Of course both saved and unsaved people physically die.

Which is why James is not speaking of physical death, but a soul from death.

• Do you have a scripture that says we are saved from physical death?

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

James 5:14-16, 19-20 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the elders of the church and they should pray over him, anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous person accomplishes much. My brothers, if anyone among you should wander away from the truth and someone turns him back, he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save that person’s soul from death, and will cover over a great number of sins.
Only the Lord will raise people up and forgive sins! We simply participate via our prayers. It accomplishes much because of Who we are praying to, not because of who we are (or oil). (A visit to a competent doctor ever so often doesn't hurt either to save a sick person's soul from death).

But the forgiveness of a person's sins ..., best leave that to The Doctor in the sky.

Yes Jesus does forgive our sins, if we confess them.

• Humble themselves - I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.
• Confess sin - ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
• Repent: Be reconciled - I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ Luke 15:18-21



Do we tell people who have wandered from Christ and are backslidden and lost:

1. You are still saved, don't worry, continue as you are, Jesus will come for you someday and bring you back, it's guaranteed.
2. You must humble yourself, confess your sin, and repent and turn back to God and He will receive you back with open arms.

Which option would you say?

1 or 2 ?

As for me, I would tell them option 2.


Option 2, is what James teaches us to do, in order to save a from death.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



JLB

 

[JLB]

Its always interesting to read how a person thinks, who is obsessed with the idea that they can lose their salvation.
Once this spiritual infection sets it, all Grace is gone from them, all blood atonement, all Jesus on a cross as the way to the Father is long gone, and everything they write about has to do with earning salvation or personally trying to keep themselves saved.
Everything about what you write is pointing out that you are so "fallen from Grace" that its really quite a wonder.
You give Jesus and the Cross and the blood atonement credit for exactly NOTHING, as for you , JLB,...its ALL about works and works and deeds and effort to keep yourself saved.
Everything you write is just the most self-righteous theology that you can possibly twist a verse to try to prove.

I guess you have no need to honestly address any points that I have made, from the scriptures, since you have already passed judgement upon me, that I have fallen from grace.

Thanks for your opinion.


God bless you.



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Every story that includes a person who became lost, then repented and is reconciled back to God, will end in rejoicing.

The principle is they must humble themselves, and confess their sin, and repent in order to be reconciled.


I ask you to be honest, and see that this is exactly what God expects of a sinner who has never believed, as well as someone who has willing departed from God and become lost.

• Humble themselves - I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.
• Confess sin - ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
• Repent: Be reconciled - I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ Luke 15:18-21

• It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

Here is where the rubber meets the road.


Do we tell people who have wandered from Christ and are backslidden and lost:

1. You are still saved, don't worry, continue as you are, Jesus will come for you someday and bring you back, it's guaranteed.
2. You must humble yourself, confess your sin, and repent and turn back to God and He will receive you back with open arms.

Which option would you say?

1 or 2 ?

As for me, I would tell them option 2.


Option 2, is what James teaches us to do, in order to save a from death.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



JLB

Option 3. You have fallen from grace. But your salvation is eternal. You may be up for some harsh discipline, a miserable existence,loss of eternal rewards and possible physical death (James 5:19-20)and SHAME at His Bema seat(1 John 2:28). 1 John 1:9 and get back in fellowship with The Lord Jesus Christ.

And what the majority of us do after salvation is creep back into religion.....the ultimate reversionistic state.

They fall from Grace and forget His Cross and His work.......and start to rely on their own works and put Christ to open shame.

How great is our darkness if we think we are in the light?

 

[JLB]

Option 3. You have fallen from grace. But your salvation is eternal. You may be up for some harsh discipline, a miserable existence,loss of eternal rewards and possible physical death (James 5:19-20)and SHAME at His Bema seat(1 John 2:28). 1 John 1:9 and get back in fellowship with The Lord Jesus Christ.

And what the majority of us do after salvation is creep back into religion.....the ultimate reversionistic state.

They fall from Grace and forget His Cross and His work.......and start to rely on their own works and put Christ to open shame.

How great is our darkness if we think we are in the light?

So someone who was wandered from the truth and become lost, you tell them even though they are lost, not to worry, continue on your salvation is eternal?


I gave examples that are from the actual language of the scriptures.

• Humble themselves - I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.
• Confess sin - ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
• Repent: Be reconciled - I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ Luke 15:18-21


Do we tell people who have wandered from Christ and are backslidden and lost:

1. You are still saved, don't worry, continue as you are, Jesus will come for you someday and bring you back, it's guaranteed.
2. You must humble yourself, confess your sin, and repent and turn back to God and He will receive you back with open arms.

and possible physical death (James 5:19-20)

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Why would you think that "will save a soul from death" refers to physical death.

How does a "soul" get saved from physical death.

We are promised the salvation of our soul, not the salvation of our physical body.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Can you give me a scripture that teaches us believer's will be saved from physical death?



JLB

 

[chessman]

The principle is they must humble themselves, and confess their sin, and repent in order to be reconciled.

Okay. It makes some sense in the case of the prodigal son, but not so much the lost coin or the lost sheep. But I have a question or two:

Were all three exaofound, at the conclusion of Jesus' stories? Yes! (Tired of waiting on you to admit the obvious answer). Do you find any significance whatsoever in that fact?

I ask you to be honest, and see that this is exactly what God expects of a sinner who has never believed, as well as someone who has willing departed from God and become lost.

When (in these stories) was the elder son (or younger one for that matter) ever 'saved' to begin with and then later lost their salvation, in your opinion, and why do you think he/it was?

The principle is they must humble themselves, and confess their sin, and repent in order to be reconciled.

Amen! Repentance is a beautiful thing (for the lost and the saved!
Do you think people can pray for an un-repent person and save their soul from the 2nd death? (I don't)

Do you think elders can anoint sick people (lost or saved) with oil and pray for their healing and save their souls from the 1st death for a period? (I do, seen it happen multiple times).

But again, it really doesn't matter toward my questions about Luke 15 because all three examples end in rejoicing. 3 for 3. 100 out of 100 of His sheep are found! Like He said, His sheep follow Him. Every so often, one needs to be placed on His shoulders and carried back or a son needs to experience a famine (which by the way neither involved other disciples efforts) or a coin swept around in the dust for a period of time in order to be found. Life is messy.

I've heard so many testimonies of people being 'saved' only after hitting 'rock-bottom' that it's amazing your not getting Jesus' conclusion points (in all three examples).

Every story that includes a person who became lost, then repented and is reconciled back to God, will end in rejoicing.

Do you think people under this covenant are born 'saved' via who their parents worship or do all sinners individually need to repent of their sins before becoming "saved"?

When, exactly, did the elder son (or younger one for that matter) show any repentance for his sins, before or after becoming hungry from famine and in need of His father's help?

 

[chessman]

Everything about what you write is pointing out that you are so "fallen from Grace"

No it's not. JLB makes some excellent Grace filled points often.

Please don't violate the rules here to the point the Thread is closed.