Sinless To Be Saved

[Free]

You don't like the statistics, so you reject it.

What statistics?

I know what SOLA FIDE means.

No, it doesn't seem that you do. You understand it from the straw man the CC gives, not what it originally meant, and still means, by those who coined the phrase.

Do YOU know what it means?
I'm beginning to doubt it.

Of course I do; I've given it several times. It's a part of a larger phrase--justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. All of that opposes justification by works. To say that it means that once we're saved we never have to do good works, is false, as it takes it out of context; that's the straw man promoted by Catholics, or so it seems based on our one CC poster who continually posts that, and which you repeat.

I'm posting from scripture.
If the CC agrees,,,I'm happy that it does.

You're not simply "posting from scripture," you're posting Scripture with the understanding that the CC likely gives it.

Yes. I add works because that's all Jesus and Paul spoke of.

Not for salvation they didn't. Again, you're contradicting yourself. Remember, not a single person in this thread, that I have seen, is saying that believers don't have to do good works. We are all saying that our works are evidence of having been saved, but do not save us. To teach that we have to do good works to be saved or to maintain our salvation, is to be considered accursed, according to Paul.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (ESV)

He is referring to adding works to salvation. Anything that is added to Christ's atoning work for salvation is another gospel.

 

[Free]

20 years later?
Abraham always obeyed God.
Did he not leave his home when he was told to?
You stated that Abraham already had righteousness 20 years sooner.
Why was he righteous?
Just by FAITH ALONE?
But you say faith alone does not mean faith alone.
Please explain.

It is all explained; it's all there in my post.

You had stated:

"If we do not obey God...
how can we be saved?

James 2:14-26
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I don't see the idea of evidence in any of the above verses.
James is plainly saying that faith without works is dead,,,it's useless...
without good works,,,our faith is useless."


Notice verse 21: "Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?" (ESV). That is very important context to understanding what James is talking about. Because James goes on to say:

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. (ESV)

But, as I pointed out, verse 23 is regarding the promise of offspring, which was around 20 years earlier (in Gen. 15:6) than "when [Abraham] offered up his son Isaac on the altar" (Gen. 22:9-10). That means, James is using a very different meaning of "justified" than what Paul uses, namely, that Abraham's "work" of offering Isaac on the altar is evidence of his righteousness from 20 years earlier.

His willingness to offer up Isaac didn't make him righteous, it's the evidence of the righteousness that already existed when he believed the promise of God. Hence why Paul and James agree on justification (being declared righteous) being completely apart from works.

 

[Free]

Right.
So which do you agree with?
Are we rendered righteous
or
Are we declared righteous?

That would depend on the meaning of "rendered." But we certainly are declared righteous because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

According to Thayer's, we could choose.

No, we can't just choose. This is where so many who study on their own, which they should do, go wrong. Failing to understand how to properly use tools such as concordances and lexicons can lead to error. Context determines meaning and clearer passages interpret less clear passages.

In this case, what Paul says in Rom. 4 and 5, and elsewhere, is absolutely clear--we are declared righteous (justified; saved) apart from works. James can be a bit confusing, but if we understand the context, as I have given, it becomes more clear what he is saying. Add to that what Paul says about being justified, and we know that James is using a different meaning.

 

[GodsGrace]

What statistics?


No, it doesn't seem that you do. You understand it from the straw man the CC gives, not what it originally meant, and still means, by those who coined the phrase.


Of course I do; I've given it several times. It's a part of a larger phrase--justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. All of that opposes justification by works. To say that it means that once we're saved we never have to do good works, is false, as it takes it out of context; that's the straw man promoted by Catholics, or so it seems based on our one CC poster who continually posts that, and which you repeat.


You're not simply "posting from scripture," you're posting Scripture with the understanding that the CC likely gives it.


Not for salvation they didn't. Again, you're contradicting yourself. Remember, not a single person in this thread, that I have seen, is saying that believers don't have to do good works. We are all saying that our works are evidence of having been saved, but do not save us. To teach that we have to do good works to be saved or to maintain our salvation, is to be considered accursed, according to Paul.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (ESV)

He is referring to adding works to salvation. Anything that is added to Christ's atoning work for salvation is another gospel.

It's becoming difficult to discuss this because you keep mentioning the CC and I'm not Catholic so I don't know why we need to discuss Catholicism.

I thought well about this and will offer an explanation that might be a little different.

You ask WHAT STATISTICS?
I posed a paragraph or two and posted a link to a Pew Research finding that 53% of Protestants believe that faith AND good works are necessary to be saved.

You say that Faith Alone means justification by faith alone....correct.
Now let's see why this phrase is taken out of its original meaning.

You state that FAITH ALONE means that we are JUSTIFIED by faith alone.
NOT everyone understands this definition....
Those that believe in OSAS....and make some of the statements I absolutely reject...
understand faith alone to mean that NOTHING else is necessary to be saved except faith.

This is why we read statements like:
We can blaspheme God and still be saved.
We can decide whether or not to obey God.
obedience to God is not necessary....etc.

James:
Jesus, Paul, Peter, James....
they all are teaching what Jesus taught.
As I've said,,,if NOT...then we could throw out the entire NT since we will not be able to know the truth due to the fact that even THEY cannot agree.
Instead they do.

James means what he states plainly:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD,,,,USELESS.

James is using the word JUSTIFICATION in conjunction with SANCTIFICATION.
(sorry for caps...I use them for emphasis).

We are justified by faith alone...
but sanctification requires that we obey God and do good works.
Then we hear because we WANT to...
fine...but there should not be a condition set on doing good works...
whether or not we WANT to, we still are required to do them IF we want sanctification.

If we do not go on to sanctification...
justification is also lost.

Polycarp,,,who was taught by John, made the following statement:
1. We are saved by faith alone.
2. IF we continue to obey God (and he explains how).

This is what I believe the NT teaches, and I've tried my best to explain this.

We are saved by faith alone....
justified (declared righteous) by faith alone.

But then we must go on to your number 3 in Thayer's definition of justification.....become sanctified.

IF we don't go on to becoming more and more like Jesus...are we still saved?
If we don't obey God, are we still saved?
No. God demands obedience and this is what we must do.

James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Faith brings to justification...
justification without works is dead.

As I said, I'm not going to debate this forever because we're starting to repeat.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes Paul taught how we ought to behave. He also taught theology and part of Paul's theology is that we even after being saved are a mess in regards to sin. Ultimately our mess is cleaned up and one day we'll experience that reality, however while on earth we suffer against and sometimes through our sinful nature.

I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
And I don't think Jesus, Paul or any other writer wants us to be a mess in regards to sin.

This is very close to saying we could sin because we're a mess and still be saved.

You should make very clear what you mean because I hear quite a few on these forums state that we could live in sin and still be saved because we prayed the sinner's prayer at some point and became "born again".

Being born again is a quality of life.
That quality does not include being a sinful mess.


And I hope Free sees this because we tend to miss some posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

That would depend on the meaning of "rendered." But we certainly are declared righteous because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

If number 3 of Thayer's is correct....
Christ's righteousness is NOT imputed to us....
we have to gain it on our own.

No, we can't just choose. This is where so many who study on their own, which they should do, go wrong. Failing to understand how to properly use tools such as concordances and lexicons can lead to error. Context determines meaning and clearer passages interpret less clear passages.

I couldn't agree more.

In this case, what Paul says in Rom. 4 and 5, and elsewhere, is absolutely clear--we are declared righteous (justified; saved) apart from works. James can be a bit confusing, but if we understand the context, as I have given, it becomes more clear what he is saying. Add to that what Paul says about being justified, and we know that James is using a different meaning.

What is clear is this:
We are justified by faith alone.
We are sanctified by our works.

 

[GodsGrace]

What statistics?


No, it doesn't seem that you do. You understand it from the straw man the CC gives, not what it originally meant, and still means, by those who coined the phrase.


Of course I do; I've given it several times. It's a part of a larger phrase--justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. All of that opposes justification by works. To say that it means that once we're saved we never have to do good works, is false, as it takes it out of context; that's the straw man promoted by Catholics, or so it seems based on our one CC poster who continually posts that, and which you repeat.


You're not simply "posting from scripture," you're posting Scripture with the understanding that the CC likely gives it.


Not for salvation they didn't. Again, you're contradicting yourself. Remember, not a single person in this thread, that I have seen, is saying that believers don't have to do good works. We are all saying that our works are evidence of having been saved, but do not save us. To teach that we have to do good works to be saved or to maintain our salvation, is to be considered accursed, according to Paul.

I've read on these forums that, yes, good works are even A SIN because we're trying to add to Christ's work.
Some call this self righteousness.
Some call our good works filthy rags...I believe on this very thread (not sure) but certainly on this forum just a few days ago.

Jesus states that we will be judged by our works...
Just as Paul does in Romans 2.

Paul ... will post the entire passage and not just the verse on being judged on good works:
Romans 2:4-11
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.


What is Paul stating?
Verse 4 The kindness of God leads to repentance.
Verse 5 Urepentant hearts are storing up wrath from God from His righteous judgment.
Verse 6 God will render to each person according to his deeds (capitals not mine).
Verse 7 For those who DO GOOD: honor, eternal life.
Verse 8 Those who do not obey the truth, but obey UNRIGTEOUSNESS,,,,,God's wrath and indignation.
Verse 9 Distress for those who do evil.
Verse 10 Honor and peace to those who do good.
Verse 11 This is valid for everyone - there is no partiality with God. (Jews and Gentiles incl everyone else).


Jesus teaches exactly the same (no conflict).

John 5:26-29
26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


What is Jesus stating?
Verse 27 Jesus has the authority to judge.
Verse 28 All the dead will be judged.
Verse 29 All will come forth (the resurrection)...
those who did GOOD DEEDS to a resurrection of life.


We are saved by faith.
Agreed.

But we will be judged by our behavior.
Too many feel that once they are saved,
they will remain saved no matter their behavior.
They say yes, they must do good,,,but go on to make
comments that do not affirm this, some downright stating that
good works are a sin.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (ESV)

He is referring to adding works to salvation. Anything that is added to Christ's atoning work for salvation is another gospel.

No. Paul is saying that we must believe the gospel to be saved.

So what is the gospel?

The gospel is the good news teaching about the life and sacrifice of Jesus who brings reconciliation between God and man....the method by which mankind can be saved.....before and after His resurrection since with God there is no time.

This is accomplished by BELIEVING in Jesus.
And there is that word again: BELIEVE.

If we don't agree on what believe means, this convo will never come to an end.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is all explained; it's all there in my post.

You had stated:

"If we do not obey God...
how can we be saved?

James 2:14-26
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I don't see the idea of evidence in any of the above verses.
James is plainly saying that faith without works is dead,,,it's useless...
without good works,,,our faith is useless."


Notice verse 21: "Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?" (ESV). That is very important context to understanding what James is talking about. Because James goes on to say:

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. (ESV)

But, as I pointed out, verse 23 is regarding the promise of offspring, which was around 20 years earlier (in Gen. 15:6) than "when [Abraham] offered up his son Isaac on the altar" (Gen. 22:9-10). That means, James is using a very different meaning of "justified" than what Paul uses, namely, that Abraham's "work" of offering Isaac on the altar is evidence of his righteousness from 20 years earlier.

Good works complete our faith...
Good works make our faith valid.
Faith without works is dead.

Abraham had faith and it was counted to him as righteousness...of course verse Jas 2:23 is correct.
but then he had to go on and LIVE a righteous life in obedience to God.
He obeyed when he left home...
He obeyed when he offered Isaac.
He ALWAY obeyed God (as best he could)

So Abraham's faith WAS ACTIVE along with his works.
It was completed by his works.
Exactly what James is stating.

Faith brings works or it's dead.
James is saying to be DOERS and not only HEARERS...
exactly what Jesus and Paul teach.
Jesus: Not only those who call Lord, Lord...but those that DO the will of My Father.
Jesus: The wise man is he who HEARS My words and ACTS on them.

Those that call our good works filthy rags or even a sin are wrong....
Not being careful in how we speak brings to what I've stated many times now:

1. Our good works are filthy rags.
2. We undermine Christian values.
3. Belief and not behavior is the rule (not what Paul and Jesus taught).
4. God is not acknowledged to set the standard.
5. Not even necessary to ask forgiveness.

There's probably more negative effects.

His willingness to offer up Isaac didn't make him righteous, it's the evidence of the righteousness that already existed when he believed the promise of God. Hence why Paul and James agree on justification (being declared righteous) being completely apart from works.

Well, I guess the conversation then would have to turn to your 3 choices of righteousness.
Are we declared righteous throughout our Christian life...
or do we BECOME righteous?

§What is sanctification all about anyway??

Is it not becoming more and more like Jesus?

Can we become more and more like Jesus if we do not obey?

So is obedience necessary or not?

Happy to post scripture but difficult to understand why it should be necessary....

Written by Paul:

2 Timothy 2:20-22
20Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.

21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

22Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.


PAUL is stating:

Verse 20 Some vessels are for honor and some for dishonor.

Verse 21 We are to CLEANSE OURSELVES from "these things" so as to be a vessel of honor,,,,sanctified.
(we are sanctified if we cleanse ourselves from these things).

Verse 21 Thus making ourselves ready for EVERY GOOD WORK.
(Paul speaks of good works in every one of his letters).

Verse 22 These things...youthful lusts would be one.
We are to PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, faith, love and peace.

Paul is even stating that we are to pursue faith...as if it's something we must hold on to - which indeed it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

That would depend on the meaning of "rendered." But we certainly are declared righteous because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.


No, we can't just choose. This is where so many who study on their own, which they should do, go wrong. Failing to understand how to properly use tools such as concordances and lexicons can lead to error. Context determines meaning and clearer passages interpret less clear passages.

In this case, what Paul says in Rom. 4 and 5, and elsewhere, is absolutely clear--we are declared righteous (justified; saved) apart from works. James can be a bit confusing, but if we understand the context, as I have given, it becomes more clear what he is saying. Add to that what Paul says about being justified, and we know that James is using a different meaning.

I agree with the above.

I think the problem here is that I'm speaking of after salvation...
and you want to stay on salvation....justification.

Do want to add that the NT teaches that we are to:
Seek
Repent
Believe...which is
Obey

 

[onlysaved]

I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
And I don't think Jesus, Paul or any other writer wants us to be a mess in regards to sin.

This is very close to saying we could sin because we're a mess and still be saved.

You should make very clear what you mean because I hear quite a few on these forums state that we could live in sin and still be saved because we prayed the sinner's prayer at some point and became "born again".

Being born again is a quality of life.
That quality does not include being a sinful mess.


And I hope Free sees this because we tend to miss some posts.

I'm saying that Paul thought his own life was a mess with sin.
That's why he wrote what he did in Romans. " the good I want to do I do not do but the evil I don't want to do that i keep bon doing, who will save me from this body of death?"

This isn't license to sin.. it's just an acknowledgement of the fact that we do sin and we will not stop sinning until we die.

And that is why we cannot be sinless now. That's what human depravity is.

A person who is not grieving constantly about their sin likely does not understand what sin is.

Jesus described sin for us pretty well. " you have heard it said you shall not commit adultery but I say to you everyone who looks at a woman lustfully commits adultery with her in his heart"

If I'm honest with myself I must admit to nearly daily adultery . And Jesus dealt with a numbers of issues in this manner. He did this so that we would recognize that we are sinful.
There is no good news without the bad news that we are sinners destined for Hell because of sin.

The rich young ruler he went away grieving because Jesus told him he was going to Hell even though he did everything right and always had.

"If anyone says they are without sin they are a liar and the truth is not in them."

We are sinners, God hates sin, therefore God is angry with us all the time, however God took His anger out on Jesus at the cross. So sufficient was that sacrifice that all our sins are forgiven. Justice has been satisfied. So perfect was Jesus's sacrifice that God calls it "just" to forgive our sin 1 John 1 9.

Yes, we have to be sinless to be saved!!!!
That sinlessness however is based on the work of Jesus on the cross. It is not the result of the humans will in avoiding sin.
Even as self control gains a foothold in our lives as a fruit of the holy spirit we will still sin. That is a horrible shame to us and it ought not to be that way, but it is that way and any honest man will admit it. The shame of that sin drives him to God in acknowledgement of his constant need of a savior.

 

[donadams]

Righteousness in God's sight= doing what they do because of faith it doesn't mean sinless perfection.

And Mary is not the woman in revalation.. and her "children " is the church.

Mary is Jesus's physical mother and a follower of Jesus and that's all. At least that's what the Bible says.. church traditions are utterly worthless.

Only two choices:

1) Mary is the Mother of God, cos Jesus is God, one divine person who became man, and Mary is His mother.

2) Or the nestorian heresy condemned by the apostolic church, Jesus is two persons one human, one divine, and Mary is the mother of His human person and therefore not the mother of God.

the doctrine of the mother of God, theotokos comes from the doctrine of the divinity of Christ!

the child of rev 12 is Jesus the woman Mary christians are her spiritual children

thks

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm saying that Paul thought his own life was a mess with sin.
That's why he wrote what he did in Romans. " the good I want to do I do not do but the evil I don't want to do that i keep bon doing, who will save me from this body of death?"

Paul is not actually saying that he does what he does not want to do.
He's explaining the sin nature.
The internal battle between flesh and spirit.
There's much more to this, but I won't post it here.

But he also states that we are to overcome the sin nature.
Romans 12: 1
Didn't Paul also write:

Romans 12:1-2 ?
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

You cannot stop at Romans 7...you have to take all of what Paul taught and be able to resolve any SEEMING conflicts.

This isn't license to sin.. it's just an acknowledgement of the fact that we do sin and we will not stop sinning until we die.

Stating that we do sin and will sin and will do so till we do
WITH NO CONDITIONS
IS stating that it's OK to sin.

If you don't see this, I'm not going to try to make you see it.

What you should be stating is that mankind will sin, but we're to not have our sin nature
get the victory over obeying God.

See 1 John chapters 1 and 2 and 1 John chapter 3,,,specifically verse 9.
I'm not going to post it because it should be understood by every Christian
and we shouldn't be debating this....getting tired of it to be honest.

And that is why we cannot be sinless now. That's what human depravity is.

You know someone who is sinless?
I don't.

A person who is not grieving constantly about their sin likely does not understand what sin is.

Actually, I agree.

Jesus described sin for us pretty well. " you have heard it said you shall not commit adultery but I say to you everyone who looks at a woman lustfully commits adultery with her in his heart"

Agreed.
So why not post in this way?

If I'm honest with myself I must admit to nearly daily adultery . And Jesus dealt with a numbers of issues in this manner. He did this so that we would recognize that we are sinful.
There is no good news without the bad news that we are sinners destined for Hell because of sin.

Agreed.
Although, let's make sure that it IS a heart matter, but looking lustfully and committing adultery are totally different.

The rich young ruler he went away grieving because Jesus told him he was going to Hell even though he did everything right and always had.

He went away because Jesus told him to do something he was not willing to do.
He loves his wealth more than God.
I'm sure we all fall into this sin.....
so it's our faith in Jesus that will save.

I'm saying that we must state that God is to be obeyed....
No one will obey perfectly.

But saying that our works are filthy rags
or our works are sinful
is NOT what Jesus taught.
(not you).

"If anyone says they are without sin they are a liar and the truth is not in them."

We are sinners, God hates sin, therefore God is angry with us all the time, however God took His anger out on Jesus at the cross. So sufficient was that sacrifice that all our sins are forgiven. Justice has been satisfied. So perfect was Jesus's sacrifice that God calls it "just" to forgive our sin 1 John 1 9.

Yes, we have to be sinless to be saved!!!!

Where does it state this?

Jesus sacrifice restores us to the possibility of salvation through His sacrifice.
We're still required to obey God.
OT, NT, obedience is required.

We still need to accept Jesus and His teachings.
Not the one who says LORD LORD but the one who DOES the will of the Father.

That sinlessness however is based on the work of Jesus on the cross. It is not the result of the humans will in avoiding sin.
Even as self control gains a foothold in our lives as a fruit of the holy spirit we will still sin. That is a horrible shame to us and it ought not to be that way, but it is that way and any honest man will admit it. The shame of that sin drives him to God in acknowledgement of his constant need of a savior.

So what you post sounds good.
So why do you debate me when I state that good works are necessary?

You concentrate too much on sin...
I'm not discussing sin.

I'm saying Jesus, and all the writers, taught good works.
We shouldn't, as Christians, be debating whether or not good works are NECESSARY.

Yes.
Necessary.

Matthew 25:36.....Jesus will be judging on our good works. (we must have faith first, and then good works).

 

[GodsGrace]

Only two choices:

1) Mary is the Mother of God, cos Jesus is God, one divine person who became man, and Mary is His mother.

2) Or the nestorian heresy condemned by the apostolic church, Jesus is two persons one human, one divine, and Mary is the mother of His human person and therefore not the mother of God.

the doctrine of the mother of God, theotokos comes from the doctrine of the divinity of Christ!

the child of rev 12 is Jesus the woman Mary christians are her spiritual children

thks

Just a quick note....
I don't know about Revelation and unless the statement is literal...I don't really like to post from Revelation....
And I don't know about Mary's children...
the NT says we're children of God.

However, yes, the title Mother of God causes much grief withing the Protestant community and it really shouldn't.
As you've stated,,,,if the title is not accepted, it puts into question exactly who this Jesus was....

Was He God or not?
Was He God from the conception or at some point when Father decided to make Him the Son?
Was His nature split in half? (as you've mentioned).

Just because the title Mother of God comes from the early church, which we know was Catholic, and some so dislike the CC as to demean all its teachings...does not mean that the title is wrong.

§Either Jesus is God
or He is not....
In which case we could remove the title MOTHER OF GOD.

IOW...I wish we'd stop debating this.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

It is all explained; it's all there in my post.

You had stated:

"If we do not obey God...
how can we be saved?

James 2:14-26
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I don't see the idea of evidence in any of the above verses.
James is plainly saying that faith without works is dead,,,it's useless...
without good works,,,our faith is useless."


Notice verse 21: "Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?" (ESV). That is very important context to understanding what James is talking about. Because James goes on to say:

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. (ESV)

But, as I pointed out, verse 23 is regarding the promise of offspring, which was around 20 years earlier (in Gen. 15:6) than "when [Abraham] offered up his son Isaac on the altar" (Gen. 22:9-10). That means, James is using a very different meaning of "justified" than what Paul uses, namely, that Abraham's "work" of offering Isaac on the altar is evidence of his righteousness from 20 years earlier.

His willingness to offer up Isaac didn't make him righteous, it's the evidence of the righteousness that already existed when he believed the promise of God. Hence why Paul and James agree on justification (being declared righteous) being completely apart from works.

Free, James and Paul use the word "faith" with different definitions. James uses it for "head knowledge" that hasn't made a commitment to God through Jesus. Paul includes good works as faith's evidence in his definition of "faith."

The passage you quote says that our faith has to show that it's real by works, and Paul's description follows:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Thus, Paul and James agree that faith by grace as God's gift is what God does to transform our lives, including our repentant and loving actions.

 

[onlysaved]

Paul is not actually saying that he does what he does not want to do.
He's explaining the sin nature.
The internal battle between flesh and spirit.
There's much more to this, but I won't post it here.

But he also states that we are to overcome the sin nature.
Romans 12: 1
Didn't Paul also write:

Romans 12:1-2 ?
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

You cannot stop at Romans 7...you have to take all of what Paul taught and be able to resolve any SEEMING conflicts.




Stating that we do sin and will sin and will do so till we do
WITH NO CONDITIONS
IS stating that it's OK to sin.

If you don't see this, I'm not going to try to make you see it.

What you should be stating is that mankind will sin, but we're to not have our sin nature
get the victory over obeying God.

See 1 John chapters 1 and 2 and 1 John chapter 3,,,specifically verse 9.
I'm not going to post it because it should be understood by every Christian
and we shouldn't be debating this....getting tired of it to be honest.

You know someone who is sinless?
I don't.

Actually, I agree.


Agreed.
So why not post in this way?


Agreed.
Although, let's make sure that it IS a heart matter, but looking lustfully and committing adultery are totally different.

He went away because Jesus told him to do something he was not willing to do.
He loves his wealth more than God.
I'm sure we all fall into this sin.....
so it's our faith in Jesus that will save.

I'm saying that we must state that God is to be obeyed....
No one will obey perfectly.

But saying that our works are filthy rags
or our works are sinful
is NOT what Jesus taught.
(not you).

Where does it state this?

Jesus sacrifice restores us to the possibility of salvation through His sacrifice.
We're still required to obey God.
OT, NT, obedience is required.

We still need to accept Jesus and His teachings.
Not the one who says LORD LORD but the one who DOES the will of the Father.

So what you post sounds good.
So why do you debate me when I state that good works are necessary?

You concentrate too much on sin...
I'm not discussing sin.

I'm saying Jesus, and all the writers, taught good works.
We shouldn't, as Christians, be debating whether or not good works are NECESSARY.

Yes.
Necessary.

Matthew 25:36.....Jesus will be judging on our good works. (we must have faith first, and then good works).

Good works prove our faith is genuine. That's as close to saying they are necessary for salvation no work we could ever do is enough to overcome our sin.

As soon as you say to yourself " know I'm saved because I fed a poor man yesterday " you are in error. Our faith is to be in Christ's work not ours. I'm sure you agree.

I do not think God makes much if any distinction between what we do and the thoughts that we entertain such as lustful thoughts. Even when we entertain them for a moment before taking them captive. Our sinful nature comes out.

Regardless how any of my words have been taken by others. Sin is not OK. It’s paid for but it is not OK.
I will say there is a razors edge on both these issues.

Saved people will sin and their sin does not unsave them. Believing that we can live in sin is apostate and Idolatry. It's my personal view that some people struggle with certain sins and occasionally fail. I do not believe that is living in sin. Living in sin is sinning and not caring about it. That's brazen unbelieving behavior.


Saved people WILL do good works but those works do not save them and trusting in those works for salvation is apostate Idolatry

 

[onlysaved]

Only two choices:

1) Mary is the Mother of God, cos Jesus is God, one divine person who became man, and Mary is His mother.

2) Or the nestorian heresy condemned by the apostolic church, Jesus is two persons one human, one divine, and Mary is the mother of His human person and therefore not the mother of God.

the doctrine of the mother of God, theotokos comes from the doctrine of the divinity of Christ!

the child of rev 12 is Jesus the woman Mary christians are her spiritual children

thks

Nope. Mary is the mother of Jesus's earthly body.. that's all and that is all the Bible says about her.
The apostolic church ended when the last of the 12 died as did spiritual authority except that of God.

Jesus is Devine. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary even hinted at being divine. Not the slightest whiff. That's a man made mythology about which I'd wager Mary is deeply ashamed.

Christian's are the children of God, including Mary.

Nothing and no one had authority to create truth except God and He does that exclusively through His word the Bible. The Bible does not distribute that authority to anyone. Some limited authority was given to the 12 and that authority died with them. The greatest of the second generation Christian leaders was probably Timothy but that's my speculation based on the fact the Bible talks very little about any others.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. Mary is the mother of Jesus's earthly body..

This, as donadams has posted, is pure heresy.

Which is what I stated:

The rejection of the title MOTHER OF GOD
brings to incorrect theology.

Jesus is God or He is not.

that's all and that is all the Bible says about her.
The apostolic church ended when the last of the 12 died as did spiritual authority except that of God.

Jesus is Devine. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary even hinted at being divine. Not the slightest whiff. That's a man made mythology about which I'd wager Mary is deeply ashamed.

Christian's are the children of God, including Mary.

Nothing and no one had authority to create truth except God and He does that exclusively through His word the Bible. The Bible does not distribute that authority to anyone. Some limited authority was given to the 12 and that authority died with them. The greatest of the second generation Christian leaders was probably Timothy but that's my speculation based on the fact the Bible talks very little about any others.

 

[donadams]

Just a quick note....
I don't know about Revelation and unless the statement is literal...I don't really like to post from Revelation....
And I don't know about Mary's children...
the NT says we're children of God.

However, yes, the title Mother of God causes much grief withing the Protestant community and it really shouldn't.
As you've stated,,,,if the title is not accepted, it puts into question exactly who this Jesus was....

Was He God or not?
Was He God from the conception or at some point when Father decided to make Him the Son?
Was His nature split in half? (as you've mentioned).

Just because the title Mother of God comes from the early church, which we know was Catholic, and some so dislike the CC as to demean all its teachings...does not mean that the title is wrong.

§Either Jesus is God
or He is not....
In which case we could remove the title MOTHER OF GOD.

IOW...I wish we'd stop debating this.

Amen!

mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[donadams]

Nope. Mary is the mother of Jesus's earthly body.. that's all and that is all the Bible says about her.
The apostolic church ended when the last of the 12 died as did spiritual authority except that of God.

Jesus is Devine. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary even hinted at being divine. Not the slightest whiff. That's a man made mythology about which I'd wager Mary is deeply ashamed.

Christian's are the children of God, including Mary.

Nothing and no one had authority to create truth except God and He does that exclusively through His word the Bible. The Bible does not distribute that authority to anyone. Some limited authority was given to the 12 and that authority died with them. The greatest of the second generation Christian leaders was probably Timothy but that's my speculation based on the fact the Bible talks very little about any others.

is Jesus two persons?

one divine:

one human:

or one divine person who became man?

 

[GodsGrace]

Good works prove our faith is genuine. That's as close to saying they are necessary for salvation no work we could ever do is enough to overcome our sin.

As soon as you say to yourself " know I'm saved because I fed a poor man yesterday " you are in error. Our faith is to be in Christ's work not ours. I'm sure you agree.

OK
Some say works are not needed.
So what if I DON'T feed the hungry man?

Does that mean I was never saved to begin with?
Hmm. Easy answer.

Or does it mean I didn't choose to feed him,,,as Jesus instructed.

I do not think God makes much if any distinction between what we do and the thoughts that we entertain such as lustful thoughts. Even when we entertain them for a moment before taking them captive. Our sinful nature comes out.

Our sinful nature comes out....
but sin must be willful.

Regardless how any of my words have been taken by others. Sin is not OK. It’s paid for but it is not OK.
I will say there is a razors edge on both these issues.

No razors edge.
THIS is the problem.

So what do you make of Romans 12.1-2?

Saved people will sin and their sin does not unsave them. Believing that we can live in sin is apostate and Idolatry.

I agree.
So maybe we could begin to post this way so new Christians understand better and there's no grey area?

It's my personal view that some people struggle with certain sins and occasionally fail. I do not believe that is living in sin. Living in sin is sinning and not caring about it. That's brazen unbelieving behavior.

Agreed.

Saved people WILL do good works but those works do not save them and trusting in those works for salvation is apostate Idolatry

And here is where we part.
Good works do save us because Jesus, being God, demanded good works in His teaching.
If we obey God we will be saved.
If we disobey God we will not be saved.
We do good works to REMAIN saved, after initial salvation...
this is called sanctification which is ongoing.