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How to be saved.....

Papa Zoom said:
The context is not about angels
Click to expand...

The context is about the resurrection, when those who are sons of God through faith, will be sons of God in reality, having obtained the hope of their faith, and who we will be as equal to the angels as sons of God, in which they will not die anymore.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26

chessman said:
It's all pertinent, thus your problem.

They are NOT a person who is cast down to Hell.

Notice how pertinent it is to read who the "they" are in; "they are equal to the angels and are sons of God"

But since it's not read, it's not pertinent to you.

Have the angels who sinned attained resurrection from the dead?
Click to expand...

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

"Those" are they who are sons of God, no longer being sons of God through faith, having attained the resurrection of the dead, bu not departing from the faith, but being faithful to keep the faith even unto death, so that God did not blot them out of the book of life.

they are equal to the angels and are sons of God

Angels are sons of God.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4




JLB
 
FreeGrace said:
Really? As many times as I've quoted John 10:28 you still don't remember how it goes??

Well, even though I've supported my statement with a verse, I'm sure there will still be no response to that verse.

How does one justify the belief that salvation can be lost when Jesus said this:
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." Jn 10:28
Click to expand...

Here is the complete sentence Jesus sated about those who he would give eternal life to.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Can sheep who do not follow him become lost?

  • hear My voice,
  • and I know them,
  • and they follow Me.
  • And I give them eternal life,


JLB
 
JLB said:
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
Can sheep who do not follow him become lost?
JLB
Click to expand...
-
According to Jesus, and the verse you quoted, they can never "perish", so, they can never be lost.
To be lost, would be to perish., and Jesus said this cant happen to His sheep.
His sheep, is anyone who is not trusting in water baptism to save them, and instead were born again by the Holy Spirit, as this is God's free gift to any and all who would "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and tho shall be saved, (born again)".
 
JLB said:
"Those" are they who are sons of God, no longer being sons of God through faith, having attained the resurrection of the dead, bu not departing from the faith, but being faithful to keep the faith even unto death,
Click to expand...
That's correct. Therefore they are NOT the "angels who sinned" (how cannot die) but rather are faithful dead and resurrected humans who are given glorified and immortal bodies after the final resurrection, not angels who sinned. Angels do not die, remember? Nor do they attain resurrection. Poof. Your assumption is just flat wrong. Which is why I didn't answer your previous assumptive question based on this faulty assumption.

Is there any reason whatsoever for you to therefore 'reason' that those spoken of in Luke 22:35-36 are "the angels that sinned" Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 2:4? Other than your desire to copy a portion of Luke 22:35-36 into 2 Peter 2:4, you've not presented any reasons.


JLB said:
Angels are sons of God.
Click to expand...
If you repeat this 1,000 times it will not become Scripture. You have posted a Scripture that states faithful, dead, resurrected humans are "sons of God", which I already knew to be true because Paul tells the living faithful, Spirit led Roman brothers they already are sons of God.

Romans 8:12-14 So then, brothers, we are obligated not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.​

And no, he wasn't talking about the angels who sinned here either.

JLB said:
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4
Click to expand...

I know God did not spare the angels who sinned and who are reserved for judgment.
 
chessman said:
That's correct. Therefore they are NOT the "angels who sinned" (how cannot die) but rather are faithful dead and resurrected humans who are given glorified and immortal bodies after the final resurrection, not angels who sinned. Angels do not die, remember? Nor do they attain resurrection. Poof. Your assumption is just flat wrong. Which is why I didn't answer your previous assumptive question based on this faulty assumption.

Is there any reason whatsoever for you to therefore 'reason' that those spoken of in Luke 22:35-36 are "the angels that sinned" Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 2:4? Other than your desire to copy a portion of Luke 22:35-36 into 2 Peter 2:4, you've not presented any reasons.
Click to expand...


Luke 20:35-36 does not mention angels who sinned.:shrug

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


Angels are sons of God, having been created by God, like Adam.

23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the sonof Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the sonof Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the sonof Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:23-38


  • the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

JLB
 
JLB said:
Yes anticipate.

to desire with expectation of obtainment or fulfillment
Click to expand...
No. It is to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt of THE fulfillment.

expectation of what is sure (certain);
 
JLB said:
Can a person who is cast into the depths of hell, be separated from the love of God, in hell?



38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39



JLB
Click to expand...
Of course they can..............But not a born-again believer. This is where your theology fails.

John 10:28 says they (His sheep)will NEVER perish. And you have His sheep perishing........just doesn't work from His mind.
 
gr8grace3 said:
Of course they can..............But not a born-again believer. This is where your theology fails.
Click to expand...


Do you have a scripture that teaches us that God does not love people He has to cast into hell?


JLB
 
JLB said:
Luke 20:35-36 does not mention angels who sinned.:shrug
Click to expand...
Yes it does. I didn't say it didn't.

My question was by what reasoning do you then copy/paste those faithful, dead, resurrected humans from Peter (which are clearly not sinful angels) into Luke 22:35/36?
 
chessman said:
You mentioned "a sheep", so "a sheep".
Click to expand...

Here is my post # 62 = I didn't use the phrase "a" sheep, those are your words.


Here is the complete sentence Jesus stated about those who he would give eternal life to.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Can sheep who do not follow him become lost?

  • hear My voice,
  • and I know them,
  • and they follow Me.
  • And I give them eternal life,

Sheep who have never followed Him, are not His.
His sheep who follow Him can indeed become lost.


Does lost mean saved ?



JLB
 
chessman said:
Yes it does. I didn't say it didn't.
Click to expand...

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


Where does Luke 20:35-36 mention angels who sinned?



JLB
 
gr8grace3 said:
No. It is to KNOW without a shadow of a doubt of THE fulfillment.

expectation of what is sure (certain);
Click to expand...

If a person departs from the faith, the substance of their hope, do they still have hope: the expectation of what is sure[certain]?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


JLB
 
JLB said:
Do you have a scripture that teaches us that God does not love people He has to cast into hell?


JLB
Click to expand...
Yes. Romans 8:35.

Paul uses a fortiori logic to explain that believers will NEVER be separated from the love of Christ. A fortiori is a logical system used in His word.

He tells us, as believers, that we can NOT be separated from the love Christ because the logical alternative is that unbelievers WILL be separated from His love.

If people could not be separated from His love.......He would Not PROMISE us that we(as born-again persons) could not be separated from His love.
 
JLB said:
If a person departs from the faith, the substance of their hope, do they still have hope: the expectation of what is sure[certain]?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


JLB
Click to expand...
No. They are not certain. they departed from the faith..........This is why we have many here trying day in and day out to throw His Children in the LoF.

If a believer thinks salvation can be lost..............they have departed from the faith. They are no longer certain.<<<<<but they are still saved and don't KNOW it.

But there are many solid believers here to tell them that they need to quit "white knuckling" from their flesh to remain saved or maintain their salvation.
 
FreeGrace said:
new covenant preacher said: ↑
Thank-you very much, however I can not take any credit
I'm just a vessel for the Spirit of Truth and to Christ Jesus is all the Glory due!

Thanks for the "reveal". The sad thing about this link is that assurance of salvation is based on a very faulty interpretation of the verse that says "those who endure to the end will be saved".

If that were true, our salvation would be based on our efforts to endure. This is nothing more or less than works salvation. The exact same kind of works salvation that the Pharisees were deceived by.
Click to expand...
You are welcome.
There must be a denomination that instructs in such things because I've run across quite a few people that don't trust they are saved for all time. Instead they think they have to walk on egg shells through life in order to keep their salvation. As if they can labor and achieve salvation themselves. I don't quite get where they ran across that in the writings in the bible. That's why I think maybe it is a denomination thing.

JLB said:
Can a person who is cast into the depths of hell, be separated from the love of God, in hell?
JLB
Click to expand...
Of course not.
Psalm 139:7-8
Where shall I go from your Spirit?Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
 
JLB said:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
Click to expand...


JLB said:
Can sheep who do not follow him become lost?
Click to expand...
Since you changed who Jesus was talking about ("my sheep") in your commentary and question to be unspecified, I was not sure who's sheep you meant in the above question.

I mean, after all, Jesus specifically says His sheep follow Him. But then you ask a question about sheep that do not follow Him. I thought it reasonable that you must be asking this question about "a sheep" because Jesus Himself just got through saying His sheep follow Him. But then you ask about sheep that do not follow Him.

I guesd we need to clarify things:

Do you believe that Jesus' sheep follow Him, yes or no?
 
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