and before that?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How to defend the trinity!
- Thread starter Bible
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I think not my little friend! Your salvation depends on your chosen lot in life!
NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G2820) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.
Word study
G2820
κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.
Word study
G4309
προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.
In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.
In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done. The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.
In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew. Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."
In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good. Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge. Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.
Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.
Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.
Pay attention Cooper... Read this next verse in Context!!!
NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. By lot??? you tell me Cooper???
CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.
Who does the choosing Cooper???? Jesus or His God???
NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
CEV Joh 6:65 Then Jesus said, "You cannot come to me, unless the Father makes you want to come. That is why I have told these things to all of you."
Cooper.... Your God and Father... is the same God and Father Jesus has!!!
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Cooper... do you know the saviour sent by His God? Do you know His New name??? Have you been chosen by Lot? Time will tell... for us both!
Paul
You assume too much....
Pay attention....
This line of thought naturally takes us to the two difficult expressions spoken by Jesus himself in the gospel of John: No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. ( Joh 3:13) . And Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? (Joh 6:62).
It we read these statements with our traditional (Greek) glasses on, we will run into difficulty, thinking Jesus said he lived with the Father in heaven before transferring his existence into the womb of Mary on earth. In order to understand what Jesus is saying, we must look at its "Jewishness." Is significant that Jesus here calls himself "the Son of
Man." This title occurs about 82 times in the N T and with two exceptions all occurrences are in the Gospels. And in all but the two exceptions (Acts 7:56 and Rev 1:13) this title comes from the lips of Jesus himself. We understand then that it is held a dear place his heart. We need to discover why Jesus delighted to call himself "the Son of Man." The O T supplies the background, and when we examine this we can see that Jesus did not just invent the title out of thin air.
In the O T “Son of Man” simply means a human being and often appears as strictly parallel to the word "man" (see Num. 23:19; Is. 56:2; Jer. 49:18; Ps. 8:4; Ps. 146:3, etc.). In Ezekiel and there is a slightly more specialized use of the phrase "Son of Man." Here it occurs more than 90 times, and always as an address by God to Ezekiel. "Son of Man," says God to Ezekiel, "stand on your feet and I will speak with you" (2:1). "Son of Man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel" (3:1). "Then He said to me, ‘Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak My words to them’"
(3:4). In Ezekiel the title points to Ezekiel’s humanity, with all its attendant ignorance,frailty and mortality, in contrast with the glory and strength and knowledge of God.
Some commentators have latched onto this usage and have suggested that when Jesus called himself "the Son of Man" he was speaking in terms of the human part of his nature, and that when he used the term "Son of God" he was speaking in terms of the divine side of his nature. This cannot be for two obvious reasons. First, it is in fact when he uses the term "Son of Man" that Jesus makes many of his greatest and most divine statements and claims. Second, to partition Jesus’ life into times when he spoke humanly as “Son of Man” and divinely as “Son of God” is to leave him a split personality.
Some suggest that when Jesus called himself Son of Man he was pointing to himself as a humble, unpretentious human with no aspirations for such a prophesied greatness as Daniel saw. He was not claiming, they contend, to be this heavenly warrior king, for whom the nation of Israel hoped and prayed. William Barclay explodes this line of thought when he says:
The one fact which makes that suggestion impossible is that it appears that in fact the Son of Man was a Messianic title, and a title involved in one of the most superhuman pictures of the Messiah in all Jewish thought. If the title Son of Man had any contemporary Messianic meaning at all, it was the precise opposite of a simple, humble, human figure. Berclay, Jesus as they Saw Him, p.70.
There is no doubt that the ultimate origin of the title Son of Man is in the book of Daniel. In Daniel 7 the seer has a vision of the great empires which up until then had held sway over the Mediterranean world. He sees these empires under the symbolism of beast; they are so callous, so cruel, so bestial that they cannot be typified in any other way. There was the lion with eagles’ wings; there was the bear with three ribs in its mouth; there was the leopard with four wings and four heads; there was the fourth nameless beast with iron teeth, dreadful, terrible, irresistibly strong. These stood for the empires which up to that time had held sway, all of them of such savagery that beast were the only picture of them. But their days were ended and the power was broken. Then the world power is given by God into the hands of a power which is not bestial and savage but gentle and humane and can be typified and symbolized in the figure of a man. Daniel predicts that the Saints, God's people of both the old and new Testaments, will
possess the Kingdom.
This is to say that at last the dream of Israel will be realized. They have been brutally treated. But the long awaited Messianic age will dawn. And, naturally according to Daniel's vision, there grew in Israel's national consciousness the hope that this new age would be brought into being either national hero, the Messiah, the Son of Man. The title
“Son of Man” becomes a title for the “Messiah.”
Jesus took this title for himself. When he called himself the son of man he was saying "I, myself." Compare his question "who do men say that the Son of Man is?" (Matt. 16:13) with the parallel and Mark eight, "who do men say that I am?" (v. 27). A look at the context will show that Jesus used this title to make some of his great is claims and declarations. The Son of Man is the Savior of the World (Luke 19:10). The Son of Man will rise from the dead (Matt. 17:9). The Son of Man will inherit the Glory of the Kingdom of God (Matthew 19:28) and will come to earth and raise the dead for
judgment (Mat. 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 17:26, 30). The Son of Man will come to earth with all the power of the Angels of God (Matt. 13:41; 16:27-28).
It was after Jesus revealed the twist of a suffering Son of Man that Peter rebuked Jesus, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matt.16:22). For Peter and his fellow disciples the whole Jewish consciousness of the majestic, divine glory of the Son of Man had nothing to do with rejection and humiliation and crucifixion as a common criminal. This was an impossible contradiction of terms. Statements like this left Jesus followers bewildered. But from the beginning he knew he faced a double destiny. He was indeed the Son of Man, the Messiah destined for ultimate triumph over all God's enemies. But he was also the suffering servant, who must get to the glory by the way of the cross. Jesus therefore "took this title Son of Man and re-minted it…
With this brief background we are now in a position to interpret John's statements that "no one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man," and "what then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where he was before?" (John 3:13; 6:62). It is clear Jesus is has used the title Son of Man in a vacuum. His whole life was based on what was written in the O T Scriptures, that is, prophecy. "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of him" (Matt 26:24; Mark 14:22). "And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be betrayed with contempt?" (Mark 9:12).
How then can Jesus have said that the Son "has ascended to heaven"? Simply because this is what had been forecast about him in Daniel. Following a well-establish principle of Hebrew thinking, God’s acts may be said to have happened already, once they are fixed in the divine counsels. The Son of Man is identified with the figure who in the book of Daniel is seen in heaven. He is they are not because he is actually alive prior to his birth, but because God has granted a vision of his future destiny. At the time of speaking, Jesus had not yet ascended into heaven; but the ascension is so certainly prophesied by Daniel that Jesus can say he has ascended, i.e, he is destined to do so.
When Jesus asked, "What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where he was before?" He he is seen in Daniel's heavenly vision of the Messiah and future glory. This is the glory that Messiah, destined to rise from the dead and sit at God's right hand of power, will have. Jesus is grasping by faith God's picture of his ascension glory, in what was written. A further consideration that proves these verses do not support the doctrine that Christ is the "eternal Son of God" in heaven before his birth is that the "Son of Man" is a human person who preexists (in God's degree in vision form) in heaven. Even Trinitarians do not claim that the Son of Man, the human Jesus, existed prior to his conception. Thus we establish again the very Hebrew understanding and background to these sayings of Jesus, namely, that God calls those things which do not yet exist as though they do. Like Father, like Son!
I hope this helps Randy. I would like to make a point that scripture must be viewed as a scriptural sum of the whole. In order to understand who Jesus is, we must first understand who and what the “Messiah” is, for Jesus is the Messiah.
Your welcome,
Paul
I'm bowing out of this. I want nothing to do with all of that.
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
The word BECAME flesh.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
Its clear to me the Son who was before all things, (His Spirit), was in that body and the Father was living in Him.
Predestination
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, (12) so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. (13) In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; (14) this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God's own people, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:11-14 NRSV)
It should not need saying that those who believe JESUS CHRIST IS LORD and accept him as their Lord and Saviour are predestined to spend eternity with Him.
Those who deny Jesus is LORD, and there are a lot who have not yielded their lives to Him, need to spend their waking hours in fear and trembling.
Jesus said, “Follow me.” And having done that we are predestined to spend eternity with Him. And that my friends, is the lesson of Predestination.
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I understand your not wanting to deal with the scripture I showed you... You don't want to burn forever by some lot ... just like all of humanity. What you don't understand is the wages of sin is death... Not to burn in a fire!
What did God tell Adam!!
Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
So how did you get you will surely die.... to burning in a Hell Fire forever?
You got it from the Greeks.... Not the Hebrews culture Jesus lived in!!!
Chill Cooper, We all pay for our sins by dying... Jesus is the first born from the dead... So that we will live again! Jesus paid the pentiaty for our death!!! Jesus did not burn in hell forever to cover the sins of his followers!
Let go of your Fear of the concept of Hell/Grave! You will die to pay for the sins of Adam and your own faults .. Jesus died for us to be resurrected from the dead... Not to skip dying!!
Your Pastor is clueless... You need to seek on your own!
Paul
There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.
KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint
Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'
Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?
The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.
Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?
But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?
Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?
Now here is something very obvious that they never told you in church. This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.
Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not “I am is the one speaking to you!”
Notice...
In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!
What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."
Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."
The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.
The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!
John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Really Randy.... Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God! So do you need a understanding on what Son of God means in scripture? You can not be God and then claim to have one!
I AM... here to help
Paul
Jesus was responding to this sarcasm.
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
He's clearly claiming to be much older. As in I existed. No that He was the messiah.
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
It cannot be done in reality. The Facts are against a trinity existing.
From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion taught, served and worshipped the Abrahamic God( the true God) a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah)--Thus while Jesus attended those places of worship was taught, served and worshipped that single being God, as was every bible writer.
No trinity was ever served by a true follower. No trinity was taught before the first council of Constantinople in 381 ce.
In Catholicisms own encyclopedia-The new Catholic encyclopedia, Vol XIV, Page 299-- The formulation, one God in three persons, was not established, not assimilated into a christians life and it profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.
Thus, that religion by satans will created a trinity to mislead, then altered translation to fit false council teachings. Even in their own translating( Greek Lexicons) The true God is called-Ho Theos in the second line at John 1:1, plain Theos in the last line, clearly showing the word( Jesus) was not called-THE GOD as in the second line to the true God-a god is correct-many translations in history had a god, or was divine-all rejected by trinity clergys because truth exposes them as false and they would not exist. In 1822- a Greek scholar proved to the world a god was correct by putting Greek and English side by side in his NT translation.
Then according to you... the Blind Begger is also claiming to be much older....
In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" Just like Jesus!!! And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM?
Given that you can only read translations of the word of God.... Which translation tells the truth???
KJV Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
ASV Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
NIV Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
ESV Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
CLV Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."
So Randy Dandy.... Which Bible is true? The one that reads Faith in Jesus... or ... Faith of Jesus...
BTY.... It's Faith of Jesus... not in Jesus that reads true!!!
Paul
- Apr 2, 2003
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That is false as any church historian will tell you. Outside of the Bible, the foundations of the Trinity and even the Trinity itself were taught as truth from the beginning of the second century onward.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/trinitarianism-in-the-early-church/
Have you actually read any of the early church Father's writings? You should.
We can immediately dismiss the translation of "a god" simply on the basis of monotheism. There is only one being that is God; there are no beings between God and man that are truly gods. That would be polytheism or Gnosticism and certainly not a Christian idea.
However, you, and those you quote, do not understand the anarthrous (without the article) use of Theos. That is must be translated as "a god" ignores the 282 times that Theos is used anarthrously in the NT, including four times in John 1: vss. 6, 12, 13, and 18.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Do you think we should translate those as "There was a man sent from a god," "he gave the right to become children of a god," "but of a god," and "no one has ever seen a god"? Why or why not?
What about 2 Cor 5:19, "that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation"? Should we be translating that as "in Christ a god"? Why or why not?
One of the problems is that if John did use the article in 1:1c, then God and Word become interchangeable, which would support Modalism. But that is false. Without the article then, the only meaning we can get is one of a qualitative nature, that is, it is speaking of the nature of the Word, his divinity.
There is more that can be said about the context alone that proves "a god" cannot be a legitimate translation, but that above should suffice.
Yes... one of the founding Fathers of the Trinity was frustrated by the Church's faliure to follow his teachings.... it's well documented! Tertullian writing around the year 200 AD to a friend of his called Praxeas states:
Chap. III. vv. 1. "The majority of believers, are STARTLED at the Dispensation (of the Three in One)...
They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods...
While the Greeks actually REFUSE to understand the oikonomia, or Dispensation" (of the Three in One)."
This is an incredible statement. Tertullian himself states that the majority of believers are startled when he tells them of the dispensation of the three in one. Why are believers startled at this teaching if it is supposed to be the core of Christianity from the beginning? Because it was not! This is why they are startled. The Greeks (Greek Christians) refused to accept this idea at all and accused him of worshipping two and three gods. Why would they refuse to accept their own Christian Doctrine of the Trinity? Because it was not part of Christianity until the year 381 AD. It stands to reason that if the Doctrine of the Trinity had been the status quo from the beginning of Christianity, then the majority of believers (No, all the believers) should have been well aquatinted with this concept. But they were not. They accused Tertullian of worshipping two and three gods. This doctrine was something new, it was not the established belief of Christianity as you can see. It was starting to work itself out, but it was not in the majority, in fact, it was very much in the minority. The Bible provides us with an excellent example, it states in Acts 19:1-3:
"While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came down to Ephesus where he found some disciples. He said to them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?’ They answered him, ‘We have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’ He said, ‘How were you baptized?’ They replied, ‘With the baptism of John.’"
These were disciples in Christ. People who already believed in Jesus as the Messiah and the future coming of his kingdom. Yet they had been baptized without even knowing about the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is actually "God the Holy Spirit," and the Doctrine of the Trinity is the core of Christianity, would it not be reasonable to conclude that in order to be considered a believer and be baptized, one would have to be familiar and have an understanding of this idea. Yet these disciples did not. Why not? Because there was no such thing as "God the Holy Spirit."
Paul
- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,425
- 5,896
Yes, officially, the doctrine of the Trinity was accepted in 381, however, as you point out, there were at least some Christians that believed in the Trinity around 200. Even in 325, at the Council of Nicaea, we see one of the fundamental elements of the Trinity being affirmed--the deity of Jesus. From the 100's on, early church Fathers were teaching the foundations of the Trinity, that is, the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, yet kept them distinct from each other and the Father. We also know, being Christians, they were strict monotheists. All those ideas are taught in Scripture, which is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity is the most accurate and complete belief of the nature of God.
Looking at the text:
Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
Act 19:3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.”
Act 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (ESV)
We see that who the disciples in verse 1 were following isn't mentioned, so we have to continue. In verse 3, they clearly state they were baptized "into John's baptism," that is, they were disciples of John the Baptist. This is confirmed by Paul's response in verse 4, stating that John's baptism was a "baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in . . . Jesus." The proper response of these disciples of Jesus, then, was to become "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." That is, they became disciples and followers of Jesus instead of John.
First of all if you want to take a look at the verse we are discussing we can. Jesus was responding to , "“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
He didn't just say I Am He stated, "“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am!
Clearly Jesus claims to be before Abraham was born and did indeed see and know Abraham.
KJ21
Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am!”
ASV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.
AMP
Jesus replied, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.”
AMPC
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I Am.
BRG
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
CSB
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”
CEB
“I assure you,” Jesus replied, “before Abraham was, I Am.”
CJB
Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!”
CEV
Jesus answered, “I tell you for certain that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am.”
DARBY
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
DLNT
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you— before Abraham came-into-being, I am”.
DRA
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
ERV
Jesus answered, “The fact is, before Abraham was born, I Am.”
EHV
Jesus said to them, “Amen, Amen, I tell you: Before Abraham was born, I am.”
ESV
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
ESVUK
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
EXB
Jesus answered, “·I tell you the truth [L Truly, truly I say to you], before Abraham was even born, ·I am!” [C A claim to deity; see comments at 8:24; 10:28.]
GNV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.
GW
Jesus told them, “I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am.”
GNT
“I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.”
HCSB
Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
ICB
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth. Before Abraham was born, I am!”
ISV
Jesus told them, “Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, before there was an Abraham, I AM!”
PHILLIPS
“I tell you in solemn truth,” returned Jesus, “before there was an Abraham, I AM!”
JUB
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
KJV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
AKJV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
LEB
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!”
TLB
Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”
MSG
“Believe me,” said Jesus, “I am who I am long before Abraham was anything.”
MEV
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”
MOUNCE
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came to be, I am!”
NOG
Yeshua told them, “I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am.”
NABRE
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
NASB
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
NASB1995
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
NCB
Jesus responded, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
NCV
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am!”
NET
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!”
NIRV
“What I’m about to tell you is true,” Jesus answered. “Before Abraham was born, I am!”
NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
NIVUK
‘Very truly I tell you,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’
NKJV
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
NLV
Jesus said to them, “For sure, I tell you, before Abraham was born, I was and am and always will be!”
NLT
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am!”
NMB
Jesus said to them, Truly truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
NRSVA
Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.’
NRSVACE
Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.’
NRSVCE
Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”
NRSVUE
Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”
NTE
‘I’m telling you the solemn truth,’ replied Jesus. ‘Before Abraham existed, I Am.’
OJB
Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Omein, omein, I say to you, before Avraham came into being, Ani Hu. [SHEMOT 3:4; 6:3; YESHAYAH 41:4; 43:10,13]
RGT
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
RSV
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
RSVCE
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
TLV
Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, before Abraham was, I am!”
VOICE
Jesus: I tell you the truth; I AM before Abraham was born.
WEB
Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM. Exodus 3:14”
WE
Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.'
- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,425
- 5,896
Exactly. Context matters.
My post is 100% undeniable facts. Those that believe in the trinity tell you different. Every Israelite Hebrew scholar will tell you 100% my post is undeniable facts of true God worship history. And when Catholicisms own encyclopedia teaches the same, its truth. No matter what other men say.
Even in the Greek lexicons-trinity translation, At John 1:1--The true God is called Ho Theos in the second line, Jesus is called plain Theos showing a difference in what is being taught. Ho Theos= The God, plain Theos = a god.
In 1822 a Greek scholar in his NT translation compared the Greek to English side by side proving that a god was correct in translating. Of course rejected by every trinity clergy because truth exposes them as false and they would no longer exist.
Its the real reason Jesus teaches-The Father is his God just like ours-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--Paul teaches that truth as well-Coll 1:3, Eph 1:13,17-- 2Cor 1:3--and Pater 1 Peter 1:3
No trinity exists, All being mislead into serving it are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily, being taught by a house divided( 33,999 trinity religions) they will not stand.
Yet... Your out of Context...
KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint
Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'
Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?
The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.
Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?
What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."
Notice the real context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM THAT I AM."
Your teaching the traditions of men... not scripture!
Pay attention... Keiw1
Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, (Keiw1/Randy) God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, Act 17:31 because He (The GOD of Jesus) has fixed a day in which He (GOD) will judge the world in righteousness through a Man (Jesus) whom He (The GOD of Jesus) has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him (Jesus) from the dead."
Paul
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Yes i agree. Jesus only answered their question honestly--He lived before Abraham. He was not claiming to be God.
The Israelite spiritual teachers NEVER said a truth about Jesus. They hated him.
He stated "I Am" and that "before" Abraham was born. As in I existed before Abrahams birth.. I am not bringing in the God context as in I am that I Am. I am showing a I existed context and it is valid. Did I not give you enough translations? And I gave the intended context. "Before Abraham was born" I existed.
Considering all the other text that puts Jesus before all things and through whom all things were made it is consistent truth.